Transportation Projects, Roads, Light Rail, etc

[Mith242]

Great to hear.

I read a different article today that gave me the impression the AHTD hasn't made any decision yet. Seems like one of the news sources I've been reading seems to keep jumping the gun. So I'm not positive just where exactly we are in the process.

[Mith242]

I read a different article today that gave me the impression the AHTD hasn't made any decision yet. Seems like one of the news sources I've been reading seems to keep jumping the gun. So I'm not positive just where exactly we are in the process.

Yeah once again seems like someone jumped the gun a bit. But apparently it is official from the AHTD approving the Garland widening with a somewhat 'continuous' median. Apparently now there will be a public meeting for locals then the bidding process will start.

In other transportation news, sounds like costs are climbing in the widening of Hwy 16 between S College Ave and Stonebridge. Looks like if this project is going to go forward the city is either going to have to cut back or pay more of the costs. The city has an agreement with the AHTD to pay half the costs. But now that projected costs have shot up the AHTD is balking at the idea. So this project will have to be discussed some more before we know what's going to happen.

I keep hearing talk about the city working on the traffic problems around the mall area, but nothing is happening just yet. Oh and apparently now we're going to start calling that part of the city Uptown. North Fayetteville isn't specific enough and guess the city wanted to call it something else than the 'mall area'. When things do finally get going a roundabout north of Washington Regional will be first. Then sounds like the flyover from northbound College Ave traffic to the Fulbright Expressway will happen. The third part will be extending Van Asche westward to Hwy 112. Sounds like the roundabout which will be Fayetteville's first could start mid 2010. The flyover could also start late 2010. But those dates could easily be pushed back as well of course.

[zman9810]

Yeah once again seems like someone jumped the gun a bit. But apparently it is official from the AHTD approving the Garland widening with a somewhat 'continuous' median. Apparently now there will be a public meeting for locals then the bidding process will start.

One other thing about this is that the AHDT has suggested that Fayetteville take over Garland all the way out to I540 so that the city won't have to coordinate with the hgihway department on future improvements. Kind of sounds like they are saying if you want a median all the way then pay for it yourself. Of course, we are paying for either way- the highway department money comes from our taxes the same way city money does.

Edited August 12, 2009 by zman9810

[Mith242]

One other thing about this is that the AHDT has suggested that Fayetteville take over Garland all the way out to I540 so that the city won't have to coordinate with the highway department on future improvements. Kind of sounds like they are saying if you want a median all the way then pay for it yourself. Of course, we are paying for either way- the highway department money comes from our taxes the same way city money does.

I guess I didn't see that part. I can't recall seeing the AHTD telling a city to take over a state highway. Maybe it's the AHTD's way of saying they are going to have the money any time in the near future for the other section. If the city wants it widened sometime in the next decade the city will have to pay for it. But it would still seem to me that we'd have to run the idea past AHTD. Although if we're paying for the whole thing would the AHTD really tell us no?

[zman9810]

I guess I didn't see that part. I can't recall seeing the AHTD telling a city to take over a state highway. Maybe it's the AHTD's way of saying they are going to have the money any time in the near future for the other section. If the city wants it widened sometime in the next decade the city will have to pay for it. But it would still seem to me that we'd have to run the idea past AHTD. Although if we're paying for the whole thing would the AHTD really tell us no?

The AHDT is talking about it not being a state highway anymore so they wouldn't have any say so and wouldn't contribute any money. That idea was actually talked about before when the 265 widening was being discussed. It would be enable the city to design a road how ever it wanted but at a large cost- the loss of state (our) money.

[Mith242]

The AHDT is talking about it not being a state highway anymore so they wouldn't have any say so and wouldn't contribute any money. That idea was actually talked about before when the 265 widening was being discussed. It would be enable the city to design a road how ever it wanted but at a large cost- the loss of state (our) money.

Guess I totally missed that. I've been saying that the state needs to find a way to decrease the amount of road they have to maintain, although this isn't exactly what I had in mind. In a sense we (the city) aren't getting a lot out of the deal. In most cases either Fayetteville has to wait forever for AHTD to get around to widening a road or we have to pay most of it ourselves anyway if we want it done under a decade or so. Although even if the AHTD is only paying a small part, all of that does quickly add up against the city's budget.

[zman9810]

Guess I totally missed that. I've been saying that the state needs to find a way to decrease the amount of road they have to maintain, although this isn't exactly what I had in mind. In a sense we (the city) aren't getting a lot out of the deal. In most cases either Fayetteville has to wait forever for AHTD to get around to widening a road or we have to pay most of it ourselves anyway if we want it done under a decade or so. Although even if the AHTD is only paying a small part, all of that does quickly add up against the city's budget.

That is true- the state often talks about how large the state highway system is but I remember them regularly taking in dirt county roads and widening/ paving them. They also spend money on little used roads when it could be better spent. There are roads in in NWA like Hwy 295 south of Hwy 16 out of Crosses and Hwy 215 east of Hwy23 at Cass that they spent a lot of money to improve. These roads serve few except the wildlife in the national forest. I sent a letter to the AHDT at the time asking to have Gregg Ave. (Hwy 180) improved instead of the rural roads to nowhere. Gregg finally was improved but many years later. Someitmes the priorities seem a little messed up.

Edited August 13, 2009 by zman9810

[Mith242]

That is true- the state often talks about how large the state highway system is but I remember them regularly taking in dirt county roads and widening/ paving them. They also spend money on little used roads when it could be better spent. There are roads in in NWA like Hwy 295 south of Hwy 16 out of Crosses and Hwy 215 east of Hwy23 at Cass that they spent a lot of money to improve. These roads serve few except the wildlife in the national forest. I sent a letter to the AHDT at the time asking to have Gregg Ave. (Hwy 180) improved instead of the rural roads to nowhere. Gregg finally was improved but many years later. Sometimes the priorities seem a little messed up.

I think a lot of this stems from the fact that the state thinks rurally (if that's a word).

In other transportation news I found a little more about the median on Garland. I was surprised to find out there will be some median between Mt Comfort Rd and North St. Not the whole section but there will be a section basically between the Oak Plaza Shopping Center and Harps. I got to take a look at a map of the improvements. Later today I'm going to take a look around the city's website to see if I can find a link or way to post it on here. So everyone can see just where exactly the medians will be.

[Mith242]

I've had no luck finding an updated map or plan for Garland. But I have emailed someone at the city who's now forwarding my email to someone that will hopefully be able to help. So hopefully in the near future I'll have a map to post of the improvements. That would be much better than me trying to 'describe' where the medians will be.

[Mith242]

I haven't heard anymore from the city since last week about an updated median map for Garland. I'm guessing I've been forgotten by now. Anyway I don't know if it will be very helpful but I thought I'd try to describe where the medians will be in the section of map that I saw last week. Looks like plans call for a median that will start at Mt Comfort Rd between the Oak Plaza shopping center and Harp's and will extend north to the entrance of the liquor store. Then a little north of Holly St another median starts. There will be a couple of breaks for the apartment complexes on the east side of Garland. But with the exception of the two breaks overall the median seems to run from near Holly St north to Hendrix. Then there's another median between Hendrix and Maxwell. There's a break from Maxwell northward past Hickory. There the map I got a look at ended. Looked like there might have been another median picking up a little bit northward of Hickory. Might be helpful if you viewed a map or Google Earth or something while reading this. I know it's not as helpful as a map. But until the city either sends me a copy or posts one on the internet somewhere it will have to do I guess.

[zman9810]

I haven't heard anymore from the city since last week about an updated median map for Garland. I'm guessing I've been forgotten by now. Anyway I don't know if it will be very helpful but I thought I'd try to describe where the medians will be in the section of map that I saw last week. Looks like plans call for a median that will start at Mt Comfort Rd between the Oak Plaza shopping center and Harp's and will extend north to the entrance of the liquor store. Then a little north of Holly St another median starts. There will be a couple of breaks for the apartment complexes on the east side of Garland. But with the exception of the two breaks overall the median seems to run from near Holly St north to Hendrix. Then there's another median between Hendrix and Maxwell. There's a break from Maxwell northward past Hickory. There the map I got a look at ended. Looked like there might have been another median picking up a little bit northward of Hickory. Might be helpful if you viewed a map or Google Earth or something while reading this. I know it's not as helpful as a map. But until the city either sends me a copy or posts one on the internet somewhere it will have to do I guess.

I don't know if this will work but here's a Mapquest link for the Harp's store at 1189 Garland that shows the area that you are describing. That's actually a little different plan than I expected but a lot better than 5 lanes or islands.

Garland map

Well, it didn't stay in the location that I linked to but it easy to drag the map down and zoom in.

Edited August 19, 2009 by zman9810

[Mith242]

Should have thought of this earlier. Just made my own version. Of course it's not as nice of as detailed but it gets the point across.

[Mith242]

Just an update on the Bella Vista bypass. Looks like the state will be applying for a $145 Mil federal economic stimulus grant. The cost of the entire project is closer to $224 Mil. But many felt the chances of receiving that full amount would be slim. It also looks like trying to fund it totally with tolls doesn't look promising either. So the state is applying for the grant and the rest would be paid with tolls. Apparently Missouri is also going to also help push for the grant. It's hopeful that both states pushing for this smaller amount will make it more likely to be approved. Missouri already has committed the $80 Mil for their share of the project.

[zman9810]

Just an update on the Bella Vista bypass. Looks like the state will be applying for a $145 Mil federal economic stimulus grant. The cost of the entire project is closer to $224 Mil. But many felt the chances of receiving that full amount would be slim. It also looks like trying to fund it totally with tolls doesn't look promising either. So the state is applying for the grant and the rest would be paid with tolls. Apparently Missouri is also going to also help push for the grant. It's hopeful that both states pushing for this smaller amount will make it more likely to be approved. Missouri already has committed the $80 Mil for their share of the project.

One paper has the entire project including the Missouri portion costing $357.3 million. That's for only 20 miles! It is mind blowing how expensive it is- almost $18 million per mile. It's a wonder any highways get built.

[slyder1]

One paper has the entire project including the Missouri portion costing $357.3 million. That's for only 20 miles! It is mind blowing how expensive it is- almost $18 million per mile. It's a wonder any highways get built.

The reason it's that expensive is because of the topography of the area in which they will build the highway. There's also a lot of rock/limestone to cut through, so that will be very expensive (you can't forget the ROW acquisition either). I'm not sure that the 357.3 million figure is correct... seem's a bit high. The Missouri portion will cost 60 mil. per KY3 news here in Springfield. I'm just glad that I will finally be able to drive all the way to Fayetteville on a 4 lane highway!!!! In 3 years!!!! Oh well, at least it's getting done.

[Mith242]

Yeah these road projects are pretty expensive. And this one isn't even going through a built up area. But as slyder pointed out the topography in that area doesn't help matters. Overall that part of Benton County is relatively flat then you get to Bella Vista and you suddenly get these hills and cliffs. But anyway the bad thing is that by the time this is actually finished costs will have probably gone up.

[slyder1]

Alternate Route from NWA to Springfield

So I was looking at my map studying the other way to get to NWA from Springfield. Basically you go from Springfield to Monett on US 60, then hit MO 37 down to the state line and connect to US 62 heading into Rogers. I have never taken this way and have contemplated it many times, but always forgot. My friend has taken it a couple of times and said it is almost the same as going from Springfield to Joplin to NWA. The reason I bring this up is because MODOT is currently widening US 60 from Springfield (Republic) to Monett with intermediate passing lanes to eventually a four lane highway. I could be going crazy but I think this would be the perfect route for a toll road from Springfield to Northwest Arkansas! I don't know what the topography is like from Rogers to Seligman, MO, but I would guess it's hilly. I know the need isn't there right now, but with the two area's growing very fast the need should present itself within 10-15 years. If you look at all of the small-mediums sized businesses locating between the two metro's... O' Reilly Auto Parts, Arvest Bank, Great Southern Bank, many different restaurants, etc., it will only keep growing and growing thus creating a higher exchange rate between the two metros.

What are your thoughts?

[zman9810]

Alternate Route from NWA to Springfield

So I was looking at my map studying the other way to get to NWA from Springfield. Basically you go from Springfield to Monett on US 60, then hit MO 37 down to the state line and connect to US 62 heading into Rogers. I have never taken this way and have contemplated it many times, but always forgot. My friend has taken it a couple of times and said it is almost the same as going from Springfield to Joplin to NWA. The reason I bring this up is because MODOT is currently widening US 60 from Springfield (Republic) to Monett with intermediate passing lanes to eventually a four lane highway. I could be going crazy but I think this would be the perfect route for a toll road from Springfield to Northwest Arkansas! I don't know what the topography is like from Rogers to Seligman, MO, but I would guess it's hilly. I know the need isn't there right now, but with the two area's growing very fast the need should present itself within 10-15 years. If you look at all of the small-mediums sized businesses locating between the two metro's... O' Reilly Auto Parts, Arvest Bank, Great Southern Bank, many different restaurants, etc., it will only keep growing and growing thus creating a higher exchange rate between the two metros.

What are your thoughts?

That is the route I take to Springfield- it can be slow at times but overall is the quickest. I saw they were working on 60 the last time I was up that way- passing lanes would help a lot. After you get past Cassville south there is very little traffic. Missouri did a good job of creating a level highway to the stateline and Arkansas has plans to widen and level 62 to the state line from the current improvements at Avoca. it will be a good route all the way to Springfield before long.

The Bella Vista bypass does have topography issues- I read where it will have numerous bridges that will drive up the costs. I guess that is the the drawback of living in the beautiful Ozarks.

[Mith242]

I do think that's probably the best route to go to Springfield. I guess I haven't heard of the state working on Hwy 62 from Avoca to the state line. It's been a while bit overall I don't recall that section of Hwy 62 to be particularly hilly or winding. Now if you go past that point and continue on to Eureka Springs it does and I could see there being problems in widening Hwy 62 to Eureka Springs.

Yeah bridges really drive up the costs. It's also why it took I-540 so long to get built. Just as a side note if Arkansas doesn't succeed in getting the federal funds for the Bella Bypass then Missouri will redistribute their funds to improvements on Hwy 71 between Kansas City and Joplin. While that would be disappointing I am glad they are at least working on another section of road that could eventually benefit our area. The more sections of Hwy 71 that are widened and improved I think it makes it easier for the idea of an I-49 to happen.

[zman9810]

I do think that's probably the best route to go to Springfield. I guess I haven't heard of the state working on Hwy 62 from Avoca to the state line. It's been a while bit overall I don't recall that section of Hwy 62 to be particularly hilly or winding. Now if you go past that point and continue on to Eureka Springs it does and I could see there being problems in widening Hwy 62 to Eureka Springs.

Yeah bridges really drive up the costs. It's also why it took I-540 so long to get built. Just as a side note if Arkansas doesn't succeed in getting the federal funds for the Bella Bypass then Missouri will redistribute their funds to improvements on Hwy 71 between Kansas City and Joplin. While that would be disappointing I am glad they are at least working on another section of road that could eventually benefit our area. The more sections of Hwy 71 that are widened and improved I think it makes it easier for the idea of an I-49 to happen.

Remeber the big debate they had on whether widen 62 through Garfield or go around it? I'm not sure what the fnal decision was. It is hiilly to the state line and very busy- one of my least favorite stretches of road in NWA. Some of it has a center turn lane but it is still nerve racking.

I get the impression if the state doesn't get this grant it may be decades before the bypass gets built.

[Snaple4]

http://nwarpc.com/Maps/71_relocation_bypass.pdf

http://nwarpc.com/Maps/bella_vista_bypass_ahtd.pdf

Just thought I would help everyone understand where Bella Vista Bypass will run.

[Mith242]

http://nwarpc.com/Maps/71_relocation_bypass.pdf

http://nwarpc.com/Maps/bella_vista_bypass_ahtd.pdf

Just thought I would help everyone understand where Bella Vista Bypass will run.

Thanks for those maps. Although I knew pretty well the route on the Arkansas side, I guess I hadn't thought to post a map. I am somewhat curious how the bypass is going to connect up to Hwy 71 in Missouri.

[aerotive]

Ugh if it requires tolls I hope it doesn't get built. Every other road in the state has been built without them, this one can too.

I'd be willing to pay a bit more in taxes just to keep toll roads where they belong--Oklahoma.

[Snaple4]

I don't share the same thought Aerotive. I think having tolls is a great idea if they are needed. They will help keep overall costs down since the ones who use it will provide funding at a higher rate.

Remember, if you don't want to pay them we will always have the option of staying on 71 through Bella Vista. 71 will never be closed and you won't have to pay extra to use it. As long as we have a free option, I think they should build a toll!

[Mith242]

I also place myself in the toll road group. It's not that I particularly want it as a toll road but I just think it's probably the only way it's going to get built anytime in the near future. Let's face it, Arkansas is falling more and more behind on road construction. Were getting to the point that if we want a large road project it's probably going to take the state 20-30 years to get around to it. We could really use a 412 bypass but I think eventually we'll have to face the prospect of it also becoming a toll road if we want it built anytime sooner than a couple of decades. Even if you're abjectly opposed yo using a toll road, it still will take away some traffic on the alternative route you're using.