Transportation Projects, Roads, Light Rail, etc

[zman9810]

I'll gladly pay a buck or two per trip if it means the Bella Vista bypass and /or Springdale bypass gets built. Tolls are a way for those actually using the roads to pay for them. If there was a way to add tolls to I540 to pay for major improvements to it they are worth looking at. As was mentioned, tolls are going to be necessary for large projects because other funding sources such as fuel taxes aren't getting the job done.

Some possibly bad news is that the grant is going to be harder to get. The feds have changed the rules so that the $20 million minimum for a project no longer applys thus bringing many others hands out for the money. It is also supposed to go to economically depressed areas and Benton County itself doesn't qualify. They may be able to get around that rule by saying that the project would benefit a much larger area including some economically depressed counties.

[Mith242]

I'll gladly pay a buck or two per trip if it means the Bella Vista bypass and /or Springdale bypass gets built. Tolls are a way for those actually using the roads to pay for them. If there was a way to add tolls to I540 to pay for major improvements to it they are worth looking at. As was mentioned, tolls are going to be necessary for large projects because other funding sources such as fuel taxes aren't getting the job done.

Some possibly bad news is that the grant is going to be harder to get. The feds have changed the rules so that the $20 million minimum for a project no longer applies thus bringing many others hands out for the money. It is also supposed to go to economically depressed areas and Benton County itself doesn't qualify. They may be able to get around that rule by saying that the project would benefit a much larger area including some economically depressed counties.

Thanks for mentioning that. I forgot to do that earlier. Apparently Benton County is one of a handful that aren't 'stressed' so yeah it's going to be harder to get the funding. Still possible but it does make things more complicated.

[butttrumpet]

I have noticed the utilities are being relocated on Township between North College and Gregg. Are there plans for expanding Township there?

I can't find anything online about it and its not a part of the city transportation bond program.

[zman9810]

I have noticed the utilities are being relocated on Township between North College and Gregg. Are there plans for expanding Township there?

I can't find anything online about it and its not a part of the city transportation bond program.

If I remember right it is slated to be 3 lanes with a turn lane and curb and gutter. I remember it being talked about since before Sunbridge was built and was planned as a 5 lane road back then. After Sunbridge was bult it seemed to drop out of the city plans and wasn't talked about much- good to see it finally happening.

[Mith242]

Interesting, I've heard talk of eventually widening Township but also must have missed that they were actually going to get around to doing it. I'd noticed some work being done on the section east of College Ave. Although I don't think they're widening that section. Looked like they might have dome some utility work but mainly I noticed them doing some sidewalk work. Makes sense to widen that section between Gregg and College.

[aerotive]

I also place myself in the toll road group. It's not that I particularly want it as a toll road but I just think it's probably the only way it's going to get built anytime in the near future. Let's face it, Arkansas is falling more and more behind on road construction. Were getting to the point that if we want a large road project it's probably going to take the state 20-30 years to get around to it. We could really use a 412 bypass but I think eventually we'll have to face the prospect of it also becoming a toll road if we want it built anytime sooner than a couple of decades. Even if you're abjectly opposed yo using a toll road, it still will take away some traffic on the alternative route you're using.

Not as much as if it's built as a non-toll road. The toll will cause 71 to become more congested in the long term. There are other disadvantages, like traffic having to slow down to pay the toll and very high and inefficient collection costs, like 30%+. These are minor costs in the short-term scale, but over time they add up.

I also don't like the "user pays" idea. Following that childless people wouldn't have to pay the school portion of their property tax, 911 would be funded only by people who call 911, urban dwellers could exclude themselves from funding agricultural subsidies, etc. These are public costs that should be paid for by society at large. Roads included.

Edited August 30, 2009 by aerotive

[butttrumpet]

If I remember right it is slated to be 3 lanes with a turn lane and curb and gutter. I remember it being talked about since before Sunbridge was built and was planned as a 5 lane road back then. After Sunbridge was bult it seemed to drop out of the city plans and wasn't talked about much- good to see it finally happening.

The city's Cone Patrol lists it as being under construction the rest of this year, stating that there will be one lane open during the day, and two lanes open during night hours.

Three lanes is about right for Township. There are a lot of businesses along there now. I hope they can squeeze in some bike lanes and some trees along the street. There are some big ones that will be lost I'm afraid, in front of Miller Boskus Lack and the Hardware Store. There were several east of there lost from the ice storm as well.

[Mith242]

The city's Cone Patrol lists it as being under construction the rest of this year, stating that there will be one lane open during the day, and two lanes open during night hours.

Three lanes is about right for Township. There are a lot of businesses along there now. I hope they can squeeze in some bike lanes and some trees along the street. There are some big ones that will be lost I'm afraid, in front of Miller Boskus Lack and the Hardware Store. There were several east of there lost from the ice storm as well.

Thanks for the update. Guess I missed that on the Cone Patrol. I'm still a little surprised I haven't heard the media mention this to some degree. I'd assume the city would put in bike lanes. Their goal seems to be to do that on all road projects that require widening. Unless there's a lot of local complaints or something to undermine the idea. On the same note I'm assuming sidewalks will finally get put in as well. And like you said, some trees would also be a nice addition. To replace the ones being lost and to add some vegetation to some stretches that don't have much currently.

[zman9810]

Not as much as if it's built as a non-toll road. The toll will cause 71 to become more congested in the long term. There are other disadvantages, like traffic having to slow down to pay the toll and very high and inefficient collection costs, like 30%+. These are minor costs in the short-term scale, but over time they add up.

Many toll authorities are moving to an electronic tolling system that involves using high speed cameras to catch license plate numbers to identify the registered owners of vehicles. Then the tolls are either deducted from a prepaid account that the owner has established or the owner is billed. This is a much more efficent method of tolling and eliminates the traffic congestion caused by toll gates. It reduces the costs involved with collecting tolls manually and long term costs such as buying the additional rightaway for toll gates is eliminated also. Even out-of-state drivers have to pay as a third party is contracted with to gather registration information on them. For regular commuters it is much cheaper to have the prepaid account so that helps keep costs down also. Fines are high enough to discourage scofflaws.

Edited August 31, 2009 by zman9810

[Mith242]

Not as much as if it's built as a non-toll road. The toll will cause 71 to become more congested in the long term. There are other disadvantages, like traffic having to slow down to pay the toll and very high and inefficient collection costs, like 30%+. These are minor costs in the short-term scale, but over time they add up.

I also don't like the "user pays" idea. Following that childless people wouldn't have to pay the school portion of their property tax, 911 would be funded only by people who call 911, urban dwellers could exclude themselves from funding agricultural subsidies, etc. These are public costs that should be paid for by society at large. Roads included.

I see what you're saying, well except how a toll will make Hwy 71 congestion worse. I don't necessarily disagree with you. But I also know without a toll option this road won't be built by the state for decades. Unfortunately it's just the way it is. Our state already has a large highway network for a state as small as ours. It's still also a rural driven state. Our needs aren't going to be put ahead of others in other areas of the state. Sure I'd like all road projects in the area to not be toll roads. But if there's a chance to build some of these projects now or in the next few years rather than decades then we should take it. For everybody who doesn't want to pay a toll there's still Hwy 71. For those willing to pay a toll they'll have the bypass and those people won't be on Hwy 71 and provide less congestion on the current route.

[Snaple4]

I also don't like the "user pays" idea. Following that childless people wouldn't have to pay the school portion of their property tax, 911 would be funded only by people who call 911, urban dwellers could exclude themselves from funding agricultural subsidies, etc. These are public costs that should be paid for by society at large. Roads included.

For me this statement doesn't work. We already have a major road that runs North and South. This new road is a limited access road designed to alleviate congestion on that major road. It is also suppose to make trips from the Northern States to the Southern States easier to navigate. Also, it isn't a true "user pays" type of road. Tax money is building the majority of the road but those that use it are asked to help fund the lack of taxpayer funds. So the users pay a little more to use it.

This toll road is a little like having the backbone of our school system public but have semi-private and private schools to accommodate any extra strain on the system.

[Snaple4]

Does anyone know if W Drake will ever be connected to E Drake ?

I know there is a park in the way and the road will run very close to a pond and several apartment buildings. It looks as though that was a design and it would be strong EW corridor. Wasn't sure if there was some old plans for that.

[Mith242]

Does anyone know if W Drake will ever be connected to E Drake ?

I know there is a park in the way and the road will run very close to a pond and several apartment buildings. It looks as though that was a design and it would be strong EW corridor. Wasn't sure if there was some old plans for that.

There was talk of this a while back ago and I think the city had planned to do this and make it a good east-west corridor. But all the people that lived in that area complained about the area being just residential and that it would be a bad location for a major corridor. They made a big enough fuss that I got the impression the city gave up on the idea. Maybe it's been postponed for the time being. But since that time I've never heard the idea brought back up. But most of Drake is already a four lane road. Seems silly to me to have Drake a four lane road yet treat it like it's only a small residential street. Maybe I'd feel differently if I lived on Drake. But my thoughts are that if you moved there and the street is four lane then you might think the city to make this into an east-west corridor. It would be nice to have this issue brought back up to be discussed.

[zman9810]

Does anyone know if W Drake will ever be connected to E Drake ?

I know there is a park in the way and the road will run very close to a pond and several apartment buildings. It looks as though that was a design and it would be strong EW corridor. Wasn't sure if there was some old plans for that.

The Master Street Plan still shows a connection. Considering there is now a traffic light at Drake and Gregg it seems more likely that a connection will be made eventually although it would have a large impact on Gordon Long Park. Because of the terrain it would be necessary to construct a very expensive bridge over Scull Creek and that may put off any connection for many years. As was mentioned there are neighbors who would fight it and we know how that can turn out.

[Mith242]

The Master Street Plan still shows a connection. Considering there is now a traffic light at Drake and Gregg it seems more likely that a connection will be made eventually although it would have a large impact on Gordon Long Park. Because of the terrain it would be necessary to construct a very expensive bridge over Scull Creek and that may put off any connection for many years. As was mentioned there are neighbors who would fight it and we know how that can turn out.

I'm wondering if they will still try to connect them. I also remember now the city caught some flack because they had just made improvements to Gordon Long Park a year or so before they talked about connecting the road right through it. Although with Gregg St so much higher now than the park it would have to be some sort of bridge over the park and Scull Creek now. That will makes things more expensive but at least you'd still leave most of the park intact.

[Mith242]

The Washington County Quorum Court has unanimously supported a study of a light rail initiative. The cities of Fayetteville and Springdale have already shown support for a light rail study. I haven't heard anything about any of Benton County. This next stage of a light rail study would make sense. It would finally give us some hard figures on if it's feasible or not. If the study shows that the light rail idea just isn't feasible then everybody can just move on. If it is feasible it should give us a better idea of what we need and what sort of timetable we should be looking at. Then the area can decide if they want to proceed or how they want to progress.

[Mith242]

I almost forgot to mention I believe today was the day the city officially starts construction on Township between Gregg and College Ave. Eventually the road will mainly be shut down except for those trying to access businesses along there. Traffic will be shifted north to Sunbridge. But even before that happens people might want to avoid Township for now.

[zman9810]

The Washington County Quorum Court has unanimously supported a study of a light rail initiative. The cities of Fayetteville and Springdale have already shown support for a light rail study. I haven't heard anything about any of Benton County. This next stage of a light rail study would make sense. It would finally give us some hard figures on if it's feasible or not. If the study shows that the light rail idea just isn't feasible then everybody can just move on. If it is feasible it should give us a better idea of what we need and what sort of timetable we should be looking at. Then the area can decide if they want to proceed or how they want to progress.

Hopefully any study will be done by a government agency or private group that does not have a vested interest in light rail being established. To have a study done by someone who's agency is in place to administer a light rail system or an organization that is funded by companies that would profit by having light rail would be a mistake. The UACDC study was a good example of a study that was done in order to support light rail and not actually examine it's feasibilty in NWA. It's important that an unbiased group do the study in order for it to have any credibilty.

[Mith242]

Hopefully any study will be done by a government agency or private group that does not have a vested interest in light rail being established. To have a study done by someone who's agency is in place to administer a light rail system or an organization that is funded by companies that would profit by having light rail would be a mistake. The UACDC study was a good example of a study that was done in order to support light rail and not actually examine it's feasibilty in NWA. It's important that an unbiased group do the study in order for it to have any credibility.

True and I'm sure the next level of study would be done this way. The UACDC did admit they their study was limited and didn't examine a lot of factors. I'm sure this next study being talked about would be a rather detailed study.

[Mith242]

Well apparently talk of the medians on Garland are still being discussed. Apparently the problem area is where Mt Comfort intersects Garland and a possible median in that area. From what I'm hearing it almost sounds like they may not be moving Mt Comfort a bit to the north of the Sunrise Cafe location like I've seen on maps. The city wants a median around the current Mt Comfort/Garland intersection because there's a bus stop there which is used a lot by pedestrians. Widening Garland and not adding a pedestrian median would make it more difficult for pedestrians to cross. But putting a median there would also interrupt some vehicular traffic as well. But to me it only seems like a problem is Mt Comfort is left right where it is now. I suppose there's also an option of moving the bus stop around a little as well.

[zman9810]

Well apparently talk of the medians on Garland are still being discussed. Apparently the problem area is where Mt Comfort intersects Garland and a possible median in that area. From what I'm hearing it almost sounds like they may not be moving Mt Comfort a bit to the north of the Sunrise Cafe location like I've seen on maps. The city wants a median around the current Mt Comfort/Garland intersection because there's a bus stop there which is used a lot by pedestrians. Widening Garland and not adding a pedestrian median would make it more difficult for pedestrians to cross. But putting a median there would also interrupt some vehicular traffic as well. But to me it only seems like a problem is Mt Comfort is left right where it is now. I suppose there's also an option of moving the bus stop around a little as well.

I thought straightening Mt. Comfort out to intersect perpendicular with Garland was a main concern on this project. That and adding a light at the intersection would help reduce any danger spots. Cutting off access for the businesses in that commercial node area wouldn't be good. That pedestrian crossing might be a good place for one of those islands that were discussed earlier.

[Mith242]

Okay I've got some more info on what happened to bring all the median talk back up. Even though the AHTD approved the plans for some reason they're still discussing some of the individual medians on Garland. Right now the biggest problem seems to be the median around Mt Comfort. The city wants a median there because of the bus stop but the AHTD doesn't like one there. To get one there the city apparently is having to extend it to make the AHTD happy. I haven't seen any maps or anything but I got the impression the city is now talking about extending it southward past the other section of Mt Comfort. Pretty much southward to around the Garland/North intersection. Pretty much totally severing Mt Comfort. But extending the median down also pretty much cuts off all left turning traffic between the Oak Plaza Shopping Center and Harps and maybe even Arvest. I certainly think a median is needed for the bus stop area. But I really don't see why the AHTD feels it has to be extended all the way south to the intersection. I guess this raises a couple of questions for me. First of all does this mean there aren't any plans to move Mt Comfort after all? Or maybe it wouldn't be moved till some later date. Although that seems a waste. If you going to move it why not go ahead and move it when you're doing all this other work. The other question I have is didn't the AHTD already agree to the plan submitted to them from the city? Did the city make changes to the plan before they presented it to the AHTD and didn't mention it to anyone else? If not then why is the AHTD still butting their heads into median issue if they've already agreed to the plans?If the city didn't make any changes before they presented it to the them then the AHTD is a bunch of hypocrites. Complaining about Fayetteville changing it's mind and so on, only to do the same thing themselves.

[Mith242]

I've referred to this before but never really got around to looking up the detailed info or specifics. But I happened to catch the info on the local news so I thought I'd get around to posting the details. For such a small state we have a large highway system. Over 16,000 miles of highway making Arkansas the 12 largest highway system. With such a large highway system and a relatively small population base it it makes it hard just maintaining all those miles of roads. Let alone ever getting around to adding new roads in areas that do need them. Makes me wish we could take some of those little used highways and just let them slide as far as repairs go so the state could focus on other road issues in urban areas of the state.

[zman9810]

Okay I've got some more info on what happened to bring all the median talk back up. Even though the AHTD approved the plans for some reason they're still discussing some of the individual medians on Garland. Right now the biggest problem seems to be the median around Mt Comfort. The city wants a median there because of the bus stop but the AHTD doesn't like one there. To get one there the city apparently is having to extend it to make the AHTD happy. I haven't seen any maps or anything but I got the impression the city is now talking about extending it southward past the other section of Mt Comfort. Pretty much southward to around the Garland/North intersection. Pretty much totally severing Mt Comfort. But extending the median down also pretty much cuts off all left turning traffic between the Oak Plaza Shopping Center and Harps and maybe even Arvest. I certainly think a median is needed for the bus stop area. But I really don't see why the AHTD feels it has to be extended all the way south to the intersection. I guess this raises a couple of questions for me. First of all does this mean there aren't any plans to move Mt Comfort after all? Or maybe it wouldn't be moved till some later date. Although that seems a waste. If you going to move it why not go ahead and move it when you're doing all this other work. The other question I have is didn't the AHTD already agree to the plan submitted to them from the city? Did the city make changes to the plan before they presented it to the AHTD and didn't mention it to anyone else? If not then why is the AHTD still butting their heads into median issue if they've already agreed to the plans?If the city didn't make any changes before they presented it to the them then the AHTD is a bunch of hypocrites. Complaining about Fayetteville changing it's mind and so on, only to do the same thing themselves.

I'm surprised they want a full median in that stretch. It is already wide enough for 4 lanes- whenever a vehicle is stopped to make a left turn into Harp's or Oak Plaza drivers just go around to the right. With a curb and and lane markings it would help calm traffic and a light at a new intersection for Mt. Comfort further north would help even more. A median the entire stretch would hurt those businesses more than it would help pedestrian safety. An island or short median or whatever it is called would be adequate for the crosswalk.

[Mith242]

I'm surprised they want a full median in that stretch. It is already wide enough for 4 lanes- whenever a vehicle is stopped to make a left turn into Harp's or Oak Plaza drivers just go around to the right. With a curb and and lane markings it would help calm traffic and a light at a new intersection for Mt. Comfort further north would help even more. A median the entire stretch would hurt those businesses more than it would help pedestrian safety. An island or short median or whatever it is called would be adequate for the crosswalk.

Yeah everyone I've talked to never expected a median that close to the Garland/North intersection. But you really do need a median over by the bus stop. That's the one section of Garland outside the university that gets crossed by pedestrians a lot. I still don't see what was wrong with the original plan and why the AHTD felt they had to change matters. The only other option I can see is to move the bus stop.