K-12 Education in South Carolina

[MikesLogic]

1) I was one of two white boys in the master's program I was in. everyone else was Pakistani or Indian the first time I was there. the second time, everyone but me was Chinese.

It's sad but true I've experienced this on quite a few occasions.

[ohioaninSC]

Why does someone need a secretary to type out something that has already been written? Just type it out yourself and you could save time and effort. I can't even read my own writing in cursive, so I wouldn't expect anyone else to. Heck I can print much faster and more legible if I print, but I usually don't do much writing anymore unless it is just some notes. Every thing else, even thoughts on things, I type.

On the education front, it's good to hear that SC schools are improving. Good school systems will make the state much more viable when it comes to getting new businesses to open up here. Most businesses want to be located where there is a good supply of well educated people.

I do agree that class sizes need to be smaller, that was a problem in OH as well. Classes w/ 20 or less are much easier to learn in than if their are 30+ students.

[GvilleSC]

This is a very significant jump in rankings: State Classroom Technology Ranking Soars

From 39th to 14th is pretty awesome. It's about time we hear some good education news in this state.

[krazeeboi]

Wow, that'a a pretty hefty bump! Here's a pertinent excerpt:

the state has closed the "digital divide," as schools with high poverty levels and high numbers of minorities now have slightly better access to computers and the Internet than schools with low poverty and low minority enrollment.

The state got a bump up in the rankings for establishing a pilot virtual school program that brings digitally delivered instruction to areas lacking teachers.

Great news indeed.

[breed]

I know one problem my wife experiences (she teaches at a "failing" inner-city school)... is that struggling schools are forced to jump throuhg major paperwork hurdles in order to prove that they are doing a good job. A case-in-point... my wife has to spend a few hours each week updating her school website for elementary school kids with little or no internet access... while at my daughter's school (at a "better" school) most of the teachers don't even have a website.

The sole reason for this is because my wife's school is less successful, so they have to jump through more hoops... which does little more than prevent them from doing their job.

[Captain Worley]

That's not all, breed. Should they fail to show the proper progress for three years, all the teachers have to go to training ON THEIR OWN TIME! My wife's school may be in that situation soon, and a lot of teachers are up in arms about it. It isn't just one class either. Its over the corse of a year.

The politicians and administrators just do't have the guts to say the children aren't learning what they should at home to prepare them for school. Some of the first graders my wife gets don't know their colors, let alone ABCs.

[krazeeboi]

I think this will cause the ratings for our schools to go even lower. I think this represents just one frustration educators have with NCLB.

[Captain Worley]

I really wish The State had run that story a year or so ago when people could have called and done something about it. You're right, all it will do is make schools rank lower. I'm not sure that isn't the ultimate end goal of NCLB.

As for the tests, the children become extremely frustrated with them and just quit, leaving the bubbles blank, lowering scores even more.

BTW, teachers are quitting left and right this year. Less and less people are (for completely logical reasons) going into the field.

[Spartan]

I think its easy to take a pessimistic view when given a situation like this, but I don't think its entirely warranted. The biggest challenge in this state is attracting good teachers to these rural schools, and to SC in general. Making changes in that regard will be a big first step in showing government commitment on the issue. Mandating tests and taking over schools doesn't cut it.

[distortedlogic]

Here is another article which reaffirms what we have been saying. The biggest problem is, however, that noone seems to believe it. All I ever hear (from other people) is how bad SC schools are, and how far the behind the rest of the country they are. And as we know, often times, perception (even if misperceived) becomes reality.

[krazeeboi]

Most pertinent excerpt of the article:

"This new report really dramatizes how the federal reporting system can produce misleading information on school performance across the nation," South Carolina Superintendent of Education Jim Rex said in a statement announcing the results of the long-awaited report.

"Beyond the public perception problems this creates for schools in states that have set high standards, there's a larger issue of credibility," he said. "How much faith can you have in a system where parents think they have a child who's proficient in reading, and they move to another state and all of a sudden that child is assigned to remedial classes because he's so far behind?"

Now our schools are far from perfect, but they aren't as bad as they're made out to be either.

[KateGladstone]

Re:

...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with cursive's apprearance. I find it more difficult to read people's writing in cursive. I should add that my "print" is actually sort of my own hybrid of cursive and print. Its just not filled with the circles and loops that cursive is.

Actually, a May/June 1998 JOURNAL OF EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH study disclosed that the fastest and most legible handwriters don't use pure cursive

[Spartan]

There was a good article in the Herald-Journal yesterday about graduatino rates in South Carolina. Currently No Child Left Behind allows states to set their own goals for graduation rates, but there's no accountability if those rates are not met. The following is a quote form teh article that highlights the problems with this method.

"For example, if a high school in Georgia with a graduation goal of 70 percent exceeds the state's goal of 60 percent, then it can fall backward the following year with no consequence and be considered to be doing fine, Hill said. "With one in every four students who enter ninth grade not completing high school, we can and should expect much, much more from our schools and our students."

South Carolina has one of the highest graduation goals, but it has the lowest figures in terms of students who actually graduate in four years, according to the study.The Palmetto State expects 88 percent of high school freshmen to graduate in four years, but an average of only 60 percent do so, the data shows."

Article

[Captain Worley]

Richland/Lexington 5 is having another bond referendum that looks unlikely to pass. I think part of the reason people are against it is the way the schools have spent money in the past. Rather than building elaborate structures, I think they need to go to a common simple, smaller building, and add them to the campus as required.

Some of the new schools being built are incredibly large and extravagent. I think the people would be more likely to open up the purse strings for buildings that were a little more down to earth and utilitarian.

[GvilleSC]

Some of the new schools being built are incredibly large and extravagent. I think the people would be more likely to open up the purse strings for buildings that were a little more down to earth and utilitarian.

Are they building them large to accommodate growth or just extra large in areas that aren't needed?

A lot of new Greenville County Schools' buildings are almost right at or sometimes above capacity when they open their doors... How hard is it to really project the needed space??? Seems like it would save money to build the space all at once. End Rant.

[Captain Worley]

They are building them larger to accomodate growth, but what they should be doing is building smaller, cheaper schools and spreading them throughout the area. Three schools with 500 students work much better than one school with 1500 students.

[GvilleSC]

They are building them larger to accomodate growth, but what they should be doing is building smaller, cheaper schools and spreading them throughout the area. Three schools with 500 students work much better than one school with 1500 students.

One might think, but I wonder how it compares when you have to pay 3 lunch staffs instead of 1, 3 custodial staffs instead of 1, 3 sets of administrative positions instead of 1, and build 3 playgrounds, ball fields, etc instead of 1 set, not to mention 3 parcels of land instead of 1, as well as heating and cooling 3 buildings instead of 1... And while one might think that it'd all just be smaller but still proportional in comparison, some things are still going to exist in the smaller schools at about the same size (like cafeteria, gymnasium, library, etc), and the payroll would not be the same because you'd have 3 principals and their secretaries and clerks at the same salaries instead of 1 principal and its secretary and their supporting administration.

[Captain Worley]

^^All correct. However, the costs wouldn't be that much more (probably very little if they stopped building palaces), and the kids would get a better education. A much better education. Its well known that smaller schools and classes usually equals better education.

[Spartan]

One might think, but I wonder how it compares when you have to pay 3 lunch staffs instead of 1, 3 custodial staffs instead of 1, 3 sets of administrative positions instead of 1, and build 3 playgrounds, ball fields, etc instead of 1 set, not to mention 3 parcels of land instead of 1, as well as heating and cooling 3 buildings instead of 1... And while one might think that it'd all just be smaller but still proportional in comparison, some things are still going to exist in the smaller schools at about the same size (like cafeteria, gymnasium, library, etc), and the payroll would not be the same because you'd have 3 principals and their secretaries and clerks at the same salaries instead of 1 principal and its secretary and their supporting administration.

True. But you're also paying less money to build and maintain the school and its land (why do you need 20 acres for a school?). Obviously the economies of scale have to be worked out for each school district, and you can't guarantee perfect harmony with school sizes across the board. I think that enough variety of schools have been built over the years to figure out which can work and which won't. I personally think that building schools knowing that they are going to be insufficient in only a few years time is ridiculous. It happens though. Since we're talking about Columbia Metro as the example here- just look at Ridgeview, Spring Valley, RNE, and now Blythewood HS. All of them were built for very little overflow.

I have heard- but never verified- that there is a rule in SC that schools can only be built for the population thats there now plus 10% or some other small number. They are somehow bound by red tape from planning schools that will actually be functional well into the future. If anyone knows more about this (or if this is false) please let us know.

[GvilleSC]

True. But you're also paying less money to build and maintain the school and its land (why do you need 20 acres for a school?).

This is true until you get to high schools and you have to have land for not only the school but also football, baseball, track, tennis courts, etc... Not only are you paying for the facilities and upkeep, but you are also paying for a coach at each one of those schools for each program. It may not be all that much of a difference, but when you're picking at school districts for fine details then you can't overlook such additional spending at the micro level, IMO.

[Captain Worley]

Sports facilites could and should be shared. saves a ton of money. Also, I know some elementary schools are combining food prep for three schools, cutting back to a minimal serving staff (who only get paid for a couple/three hours a day) at the two schjools where the food isn't prepared.. That's being done for three schools that I know of, and I think the practice is becoming more widespread.

[breed]

^^All correct. However, the costs wouldn't be that much more (probably very little if they stopped building palaces), and the kids would get a better education. A much better education. Its well known that smaller schools and classes usually equals better education.

I don't know of any public schools that I would classify as "palaces."

[Captain Worley]

"I don't know of any public schools that I would classify as "palaces." "

I've seen a lot of them that are 45,000 + square feet, with architecture that is quite distinctive. Smaller buildings and standard architecture package would significantly lower costs, IMO.

When they remodeled the school my where my wife teaches, they added quite a few features (very expensive) that just made it look pretty.

[Spartan]

For the poster child of palatial schools, just look at Dorman HS in Spartanburg.

This is true until you get to high schools and you have to have land for not only the school but also football, baseball, track, tennis courts, etc... Not only are you paying for the facilities and upkeep, but you are also paying for a coach at each one of those schools for each program. It may not be all that much of a difference, but when you're picking at school districts for fine details then you can't overlook such additional spending at the micro level, IMO.

I think that all of those issues can be addressed through design and resource sharing like was mentioned above. I know of a lot of city high schools that get by just fine with a minimal amount of land while still maintaining some of these facilities but share the use of others. Spartanburg HS uses Wofford's stadium for home football games and is going to help renovate Duncan Park Stadium to use for its baseball team. They still maintain a nice campus that is relatively walkable and it has athletic fields that doubles as a community park of sorts.

For an example of a bad move- the old Dorman High School in Spartanburg had a very compact campus with athletic fields. It was old, and in a bad location, so they moved out by the interstate on a sprawling new campus that rivals some of the college campuses around Spartanburg in size. They could have built a new school for half the kids on less than half the land and shared resources on athletic fields there. Nobody can walk to this location even if they wanted to, and it really shows a lack of creativity when coming up with new school designs.

[whitehourseview]

This is true until you get to high schools and you have to have land for not only the school but also football, baseball, track, tennis courts, etc... Not only are you paying for the facilities and upkeep, but you are also paying for a coach at each one of those schools for each program. It may not be all that much of a difference, but when you're picking at school districts for fine details then you can't overlook such additional spending at the micro level, IMO.

Most coaches salaries are supplemented by ticket admissions and booster clubs. Many assistants are volunteers who hold other jobs in the community. That and most coaches teach a full schedule, then work another 40 hours+ a week on their sport, and after a while what looks like a nice bump for a coach isn't as impressive when broken down.

A good high school physical facility can also function as a community park as well, rather than have separately maintained city and county recreational parks close by.