Differences in Raleigh and Charlotte

[RiverwoodCLT]

AS Charlotte center city fills out, it will be a challenge to take a sky line shot of uptown Charlotte and show its true density.

[MR-2]

You would actually need to come visit downtown Charlotte to see. That is the worst photo of downtown I have ever seen. There are several buildings missing and it is taken at an angle that doesn't show the true density of downtown. I have lived in both cities, and as far as downtown goes, Raleigh doesn't come close to Charlotte. Maybe in the future, but not even 5 years. More like in 20 years. We'll see.

I am happy that both cities are growing and both will be considered big time cities in about 20 years.

Personally, I don't like that angle of Raleigh either. Let's see what we can cook up...

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=396428

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=303551

There are still better photos than this out there, but you get the point. Both cities look a lot better at night. That says something kinda negative about their architecture. In five years, Raleigh's skyline will be similar in height to Charlotte's in the early 70's, maybe a bit more dense. That says something about the population disparity between the two.

You might as well compare Dallas to Fort Worth, which is what the two will probably look like in 10-15 years.

[stateman99]

Personally, I don't like that angle of Raleigh either. Let's see what we can cook up...

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=396428

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=303551

There are still better photos than this out there, but you get the point. Both cities look a lot better at night. That says something kinda negative about their architecture. In five years, Raleigh's skyline will be similar in height to Charlotte's in the early 70's, maybe a bit more dense. That says something about the population disparity between the two.

You might as well compare Dallas to Fort Worth, which is what the two will probably look like in 10-15 years.

Now your Charlotte photo is a total side view of the city.

[stateman99]

I like this one for Charlotte a little better. It isn't my favorite, but I just wanted to find something a little better.

Charlotte skyline

From the same site, here is Raleigh, although I like the other pics of it better.

Raleigh skyline

[MR-2]

Both views were dense-angle views from the southern side. Charlotte's could've been taken from further back I suppose. The film quality was higher, so I felt those cancelled out.

Here's an interesting Raleigh image that shows the governmental complex (or part of it anyway), something that adds a lot of density, but is usually not shown in skyline shots. Still doesn't have the Archdale Building though...

[stateman99]

I agree that the photos could be better. I don't like that photo for Charlotte but it was all i could find. Maybe one day if i get a digital camera (other than my camera phone) i can get a straight on photo of downtown Charlotte. I think that shows a much better angle. I also like Gateway village in Charlotte. That is adding a whole new dimension to the downtown. I will be in Raleigh in a month. I can't wait to see the downtown in person again. It has been a few years for me.

[ChiefJoJo]

Raleigh has two big lakes around it but they are not nearly as developed as the Charlotte lakes.

Falls Lake and Jordan Lake are drinking water reservoirs for the region. The land surrounding them is owned by the US Army Corp of Engineers, so there is zero development allowed. It's much better for water quality and I like that.

[Jerseyman4]

^With that said and im curious, will this affect the progress on I-540 near Jordan Lake? Not so much the highway itself but how it will accelerate sprawl quicker through western Wake County/eastern Chatham County because the sprawl is already inevitable that will occur sooner or later.

[MR-2]

I'm glad Falls and Jordan lake are protected from development. They're great natural areas, and it would be a real shame if they looked like Lake Norman does now. That said, we have other large lakes here.

Kerr Lake isn't really in the Triangle, but it's nearby, Lake Gaston right next to it, on the Virginia border. Brighton Pond, Shearon Harris Reservoir, and a bunch of mid-sized lakes. They're all artificial. I doubt NC has any major natural lakes outside of the coastal plain.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=34.853115,-78.6...23,0.181618&t=k

Interesting to see where we used to have a lot of natural lakes though.

[davidals]

1)As far as the music scene goes. You've got us there. But what is sad is that any NC band that wants to make it anywhere has to leave the state for NY, LA, or Nashville. Where is Ryan Adams now? Charlotte does occasionally throw out a band that garners recognition as well. Right now The Talk comes to mind. With new venues continuing to open up along with the NC Music Factory's hopeful opening Charlotte should be rectifying its short coming in that regard. Raleigh radio has a real advantage over Charlotte's though. We have no real independent radio station to play good rock. Fortunately I have found the wonders of satellite radio. However, Charlotte's lack of a good indie rock station does not go with out notice here. Hopefully something will happen sometime as there appears to be a large craving for one. One thing the Queen City does have though, is Manifest Discs and Tapes, that joint can't be argued with . And let's face it, when it comes to independent arts, Asheville may soon wipe us both out. I also want to say that as much as I love music, there is much more to what makes a city great then its music scene. To someone who is all about music a great local music scene is a necessity, to most people however it is simply a perk, if it is even noticed at all.

As far as historic buildings are concerned. We are both the WRONG NC areas to be having this battle. Wilmington, Asheville and Winston-Salem have scored on us both here. But I would argue, why do some people deem old buildings a necessity to "character". Las Vegas sure as hell has "character", it has an image, it has its own brand of soul. And it has no historic buildings (at least by our standards). I think a city's character is less defined by its built environment as its built environment is defined by its character. In my opinion character is most strongly felt by a city's citizens, and in most cities, one must spend considerable time there to fully appreciate that character. However, I think Durhamite, gave a strong run at Charlotte

[Rickydavisfan21]

the tallest building in raleigh would be the 9th tallest in charlotte as of today, if glen tree is ever completed..... it'd probably be like 6th cuz its residential. Of course charlotte has a 53, a 51 and a 46+ story building planned, plus 36 (avenue), 36( twelve), 28(trademark), 22 (citidan 1), 22 (citidan 2), 22 (the park), 32 (berkman), 25+(wachovia condo) 18 (aloft), 36 (615 east morehead), 16+ (nascar building) and many other midrises and such, there is no contest as far as downtown and density in the CBD goes

what does raleigh have under proposal, 29 story RBC headquarters, and 42 story Glentree?? I have no idea what else is under proposal, could someone educate me

EDIT: THE PARK CONDOS is 25 stories

[RiverwoodCLT]

citidan is (2) 25 stories condo towers. 2(10) stories

[DCMetroRaleigh]

I just got back from a weekend visit to Raleigh-Durham with a friend who had never been to the area before. His impressions of the area sort of jolted me about how outsiders might view the area. He was impressed by the colleges in the area and the liberalism, particularly the gay couples we saw holding hands at Southpoint Mall and on UNC and Duke campuses without any public reaction. But he thought the area did not feel like a major metropolitan area. He felt the presentation from interstate 40 of both Raleigh and Durham was shockingly rural. He said he felt like we were in the deep country although we were near RDU airport in the center of the Triangle. I must say that I felt like I was lying when I told him while driving on I-40 that Cary was one of the fastest growing cities in America last decade since the interstate looked pitch black and had very little traffic on it on a Saturday evening. At points along 40 in Wake County, it seemed we were in the midst of a thick forest, although I knew dense development was on the other side of the trees. The lack of streetlights definitely makes the area seem like wilderness at parts. Any other metropolitan area would have streetlights from Chapel Hill to Garner along I-40. The same unjustified darkness prevails between Raleigh and Durham along Highway 70. He said the only part of the Triangle that felt big city was I-85 in Durham, but once you left Durham there was abrupt rural scenery.

My friend has been to Charlotte before and he said he knew Charlotte was a big city by its miles of observable development, broad roads, and heavy traffic along I-85 for miles and miles. I suspect the fact that the street lights also create more of a "bright lights, big city" effect in Charlotte than exists in the Triangle.

[NCMike1981]

I-85 in Durham is looking a little more impressive these days, mainly b/c the development, while not urban, is quite dense along the interstate, although alot of it is just '70's and '80's style sprawl. At least you see more then just trees and the occasional office building, plus the widening is slowly coming along and I believe that 85 will be lighted along completion.

I got back yesterday from 8 days in north central MA and let me say the Cary area looks exceptionally shiny and new, although lacking in personality. At this point I'm not sure what I prefer although my apartment looks kinda nice after spending over a week in several very old apartment buildings/houses in serious need of some tlc.

[bdp]

but downtown Raleigh leaves much to be desired, and Durham is struggling against a crime-and-scandals reputation that - albeit a bit overblown - extends well beyond the city limits.

In moving to the Triangle, I found it harder to make local friends than any other place I'd spent time; very unlike anywhere else in NC in that regard

hey... that was a great post about your experiences in both areas of NC... I disagree about downtown Raleigh nightlife, in the past 5 years there has really been a lot of new places opening up, pretty much to the point that I can't really keep up with them all. I also think it is interesting that you found making new friends in the Raleigh area difficult... I have had the same problem, and seriously thought it was something to do with me. I was developing a complex... but after reading your post, and talking to a few other people, I don't necessarily think it is a problem with me. I am not sure why it is hard to meet people around here, atleast in the traditional methods... on more than one occasion I have contemplated packing up and relocating to a city where I already have friends, it has been that bad. Some of my old friends that have long since relocated and I came up with a slang term for snubbing someone, we call it 'pulling a Raleigh', you know, like when you see someone at the grocery store, coffee shop, bar, etc that you know, and they act like they can't see you. it goes something like this 'yeah, i saw that girl from Rockford at the Rialto last weekend, she totally pulled a raleigh on me' it was always kind of funny to me, because I had other friends here, but now that they all have moved, it isn't so funny... infact, now i pretty much walk up to people in the grocery store or wherever and am like 'hi, i'm brett, didn't i meet you at blah blah blah last week?' and usually they are pretty friendly back, so it pays to have enough balls to speak up. i don't get why it is such a 'thing' around here though... it certainly is frustrating...

[MR-2]

It is interesting how our highways have a lot of tree buffers to protect subdivisions. I guess we just care about the noise more. 40 goes around everything, staying relatively far from any of the urban centers. You can see downtown Raleigh from a small stretch of it, but that's it. It goes right through some dense areas of Greensboro and Winston Salem though, so you see all the activity immediately from the highway in those cities.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Yeah, the tree buffers really dilute the area's perceived urbanity. Also, in contrast to most cities, there is less commercial development along Triangle interstates and more residential. There aren't that many interchanges along I-40 in contrast to other cities. The passerby gets the impression that Burlington-Graham is bigger than Raleigh or Durham from the interstate. But at the very least, the roads should streetlights.

[Jerseyman4]

I dont see it being a big deal along I-40 with no lightning between Wade Ave and I-85 since its mainly low density development as oppose to I-277 and portions of the Raleigh beltline, that warrants street lights with higher density of development. Speaking of 277, have NCDOT/Charlotte replaced the burnt out bulbs yet? I find it easier to travel with pitch darkness but in denser areas, lightning is more appropiate/safer like 277 and parts of I-77 through Charlotte (between SC line and at least I-85 is reasonable/yes i know theres street lights there). The electricity costs for I-40 are not even worth it but at least i would provide lightning at major interchanges if anything.

Personally, ive found over the years that the less you are dependant of street lights for night travel, the better you can see ahead of the road. The more dependant you are to lightning, the harder it is to deal with teh darkness. I lived in a rural county (no such thing as street lights in Pinehurst) and then went to school in a suburban/semi-rural county in central jersey, theres lightning nearly everywhere. Its all about what your used to. Highway ground level reflectors should be always continue to be an integeral part of the states maintained roads. The cities/suburbs sometimes lack in them (snowplows may have picked them off over the years/large trucks crush them over time) but the rural counties are usually in tip-top shape with them.

[ChiefJoJo]

the tallest building in raleigh would be the 9th tallest in charlotte as of today, if glen tree is ever completed..... it'd probably be like 6th cuz its residential. Of course charlotte has a 53, a 51 and a 46+ story building planned, plus 36 (avenue), 36( twelve), 28(trademark), 22 (citidan 1), 22 (citidan 2), 22 (the park), 32 (berkman), 25+(wachovia condo) 18 (aloft), 36 (615 east morehead), 16+ (nascar building) and many other midrises and such, there is no contest as far as downtown and density in the CBD goes

what does raleigh have under proposal, 29 story RBC headquarters, and 42 story Glentree?? I have no idea what else is under proposal, could someone educate me

Well, if the "better" city is the one with taller buildings, then Charlotte is A#1. I mean, come on--isn't that obvious? As much as ppl in Raleigh/GSO/etc are envious of Charlotte's can-do attitude, thriving DT and skyline, I think Charlotteans are just as likely to have a "look at me" mentality... that is until an Atlantan comes along.

40 goes around everything, staying relatively far from any of the urban centers.

Yes, and it's a very new interstate relatively speaking compared to I-85, so that's part of the difference compared to most other metro areas. If having lit up freeways with lots of development around them and a prominent view of the skyline is a measure of a place, then the triangle is in bad shape.

[davidals]

hey...I disagree about downtown Raleigh nightlife, in the past 5 years there has really been a lot of new places opening up, pretty much to the point that I can't really keep up with them all. I also think it is interesting that you found making new friends in the Raleigh area difficult... I have had the same problem, and seriously thought it was something to do with me. I was developing a complex... but after reading your post, and talking to a few other people, I don't necessarily think it is a problem with me. I am not sure why it is hard to meet people around here, atleast in the traditional methods...

Thanks for the response; I will definitely keep an open mind with the nightlife in Raleigh. I live over in Chapel Hill, but the majority of friends are in Durham and Raleigh, so I'm in both cities socially at least as much as I am in Chapel Hill.

I'd add a little bit more about some of the different cities - when it comes to having an interesting downtown; I think Asheville actually might be the champ - people living there, working there, and hanging out there - they seem to have hit the right balance, and I know there are some problems there as well (everyone has at least a little crime), but it's always struck me as a downtown that has never been given up on, in contrast to sveral other key NC cities.

The 'crime-and-scandals' bit about Durham - there may be some silver linings, and some perspective may be called for as well. Durham's rep across the state is fearsome, and it makes me laugh for several reasons. I grew up in Charlotte at times (late 1970s and early 1980s) when the violent crime rates in parts of Charlotte were seriously bad - there were plenty of areas you didn't go into if you didn't live there. I lived in E. Charlotte, when Idlewild and Harris was the edge of suburbia, and knew people from Tuckaseegee to Providence, and never had problems anywhere - you knew to not be a moron if you were in a sketchy part of town. So - while crime is a serious issue, and it should be talked about (as part of a process of improving things), I find the overemphasis on Durham's problems a bit uncalled for, and arising from motives that are a bit questionable (Durham is the blackest, 2nd most Asian, and among the most Latino cities in the state). The bubble prices of Chapel Hill real estate make Durham a great deal in some ways actually - I know many people who lived in Chapel Hill, and rented for years, and were able to buy great, older houses in established neighborhoods in Durham for prices that would seem unimaginable right across the county line, and I'd note that those folks are artists, academics and business entrepreneurs - Chapel Hill's loss is definitely Durham's gain, in ways not often commented upon.

As for Durham's scandals - the muckracking tendencies in the local press are actually a virtue - I wonder how much of the same kind of under-the-table stuff goes on in other cities in the state, and is discreetly brushed off the front pages. The local press in Durham is ruthless, especially in issues of governance, and in the long run Durham will emerge stronger and leaner for it.

I do bemoan the current condition of parts of E Charlotte - the areas where I grew up (Idlewild, Harris, Albemarle Rd) were pretty placid and well-cared-for as late as the early 1990s; the decline of Eastland was sudden and precipitous - that was THE mall for 15 years, at least.

[ChiefJoJo]

Sorry if my post was out of line in any way. I only meant it as a way of showing how silly it is to compare the skylines of Charlotte and Raleigh--or any other city in the Carolinas for that matter. Anyone from Raleigh who would try to make that comparison is not in touch with reality. Perhaps I misjudged the intent of the forumer I quoted. I just hate when we get into these pissing contests. My job takes me to Charlotte quite a bit and FWIW, I love what Charlotte has to offer.

I know we all get excited when there is a new tower announced in our cities. It is a point of pride that we can point to and say we're making progress. But, too often, we don't realize that there's a lot more to an urban experience then tall skylines. I recently took a trip to Paris, and it's amazing how there really aren't many tall buildings (I bet BofA Tower is taller than any in Paris--or very close), but it's one of the more classically urban environments in the world. You get of a plane at Charles De Gaulle Airport, ride the communter rail into Paris, take one of the dozens of metro lines anywhere in the city, get off and find a place to eat, get coffee, shop, etc. To me, that is one of the key ways we should look at the urban experience in a city. In that measure, we have a long way to go indeed.

[orulz]

I'd add a little bit more about some of the different cities - when it comes to having an interesting downtown; I think Asheville actually might be the champ - people living there, working there, and hanging out there - they seem to have hit the right balance, and I know there are some problems there as well (everyone has at least a little crime), but it's always struck me as a downtown that has never been given up on, in contrast to sveral other key NC cities.

To the contrary, downtown Asheville was all but given up for lost during the 1970s and 1980s. Although some projects (Civic Center, public library) were built during that period, ensuring that downtown didn't fall completely from public view, vacancy rates were astounding and the whole area was tacky and run-down.

A proposal to level 6 or 8 city blocks to build a downtown shopping mall in the late 1970s fell flat. There was some public opposition, but I get the impression that the most important factor was that the city couldn't afford to foot the bill for urban renewal (demolition, parking structures, etc.)

Around 1990, though, Asheville was on the leading edge of downtown revitalization in the state. There was Pack Place (with the Diana Wortham Theater) in 1993, the Wall Street bollard and woonerfization, plus a couple of parking decks.

I spent the weekend in Wilmington, and being such an old city, they've got a significant urban core as well. It had a bit more of the tourist town and college town feel, and a bit less of a hippy vibe than Asheville. And perhaps they have a bit further yet to go on their revitalization, but it does seem to match your criteria pretty well too. The PPD headquarters and convention center in progress on the north end of downtown are very good signs.

However, both of these places are small towns. There's nowhere else in the state that can match Charlotte's progress and potential towards having that big-city urban feel.

[AuLukey]

However, both of these places are small towns. There's nowhere else in the state that can match Charlotte's progress and potential towards having that big-city urban feel.

While I agree with you about Asheville and Wilmington growing but not having the capacity to catch Charlotte, I believe the Triangle has that potential. But with that potential, they lack something important: a true core. DT Raleigh isn't large enough to call the CC. Plus, for some stupid reason the Triad is included in the Triangle metropolis population projection. So that leaves six cities competing to be the best of each other. That area as a whole may catch the Charlotte metro someday in population, but it will never have a true urban core in the next thirty years. "The Hexagon" needs a city in the middle to plant all the huge towers. Maybe Sexapahaw.

[Subway Scoundrel]

for some stupid reason the Triad is included in the Triangle metropolis population projection.

Since when? Can you show us a link where that is ? That would make the Triangle (with the Triad) the largest msa in NC? I have never seen that and I have worked in the industry for years that tracks this.

Maybe we look at different data?

[lma1973]

I have never seen the Triad listed along with the Triangle in any MSA data as well. That should be double checked.