New Urbanism in GR

[PBJ]

Kentwood, Wyoming and Walker/Standale are kind of the "inner-ring" suburbs, while Allendale, Caledonia, Rockford, Ada, Byron Center, etc. are the second ring, and tend to have the newer neighborhoods, newer school facilities, and "un-spoiled" land as people like to call it. That is for 10 years, until further out becomes more in vogue. I think it also has to do with the perceived stigma regarding the school systems.

BTW: They do have a developments similar to this in Kentwood on 44th Street, and in the Wyoming/Grandville School system on 56th West of Wilson. It's just a way to repackage suburban living.

Yeah, I've looked at those as well. I love these types of neighborhoods (if i haven't said that yet). And you're right, as population grows there will always be "rings". We used to live in Caledonia/Middleville 10-15 years ago and were always complaining there was nothing out there. Drive out that way now and there's all kinds of new construction. Maybe one day Middleville will have more than one stop light

[torgo]

Yeah, I've looked at those as well. I love these types of neighborhoods (if i haven't said that yet). And you're right, as population grows there will always be "rings". We used to live in Caledonia/Middleville 10-15 years ago and were always complaining there was nothing out there. Drive out that way now and there's all kinds of new construction. Maybe one day Middleville will have more than one stop light

I'm only partially sold on the new urbanist projects. They definitely demonstrate a better way of building houses and subdivisions. The houses look nicer, the street layout is logical, the neighborhoods are walkable, there is usable greenspace. But in the big scheme of things, they do little to address the "sprawl" problem. They are still a cul-de-sac subdivision in their own right, and most of them provide little connection to the larger community of which they are a part. They don't do anything to lessen auto dependency or reduce traffic congestion.

And it also begs the question: "If one wants to live in a replication of a dense, walkable city neighborhood, why not live in the real thing instead of a suburban subsititute?" The answer, of course, is that many people don't want to live next to "those people" in those old houses where stuff might break or wear out, and they may (rightly or wrongly) have a perception that if they lived in the city there would be criminals, noise, etc.

The true power of "new urbanism" (a.k.a "urbanism") is when it is applied to urban in-fill projects, and it connects to the existing street patterns and the houses fit into the existing architectural context.

And that's my $0.02 on new urbanism.

[GRDadof3]

Being personally "knee-deep" in the building industry, I can tell you it boils down basically to two things: "school district" and having "new construction". Maybe the first is code for something else, don't know. Most people either don't have, or don't think they have, the time to constantly maintain an older home or to do major renovations. I know when my wife and I looked at older homes years ago, every single one had major re-flooring to do, or needed new cabinets, or new countertops, or a new roof, or the furnace was 60% efficient, etc.. Some people like to do that stuff, but most don't. A certain guy in my family wouldn't even know how to change out a light fixture or install a dimmer switch himself

And that's my $.02

[GRguy]

Yes, Allendale may have all kinds of land, good schools and inexpensive homes, but do they have Wy-Man?

[GRDadof3]

Wyman??

Found in a google search

[torgo]

Wyman??

Found in a google search

Now if that ain't festive, I don't know what is.

[PBJ]

I know when my wife and I looked at older homes years ago, every single one had major re-flooring to do, or needed new cabinets, or new countertops, or a new roof, or the furnace was 60% efficient, etc.. Some people like to do that stuff, but most don't. A certain guy in my family wouldn't even know how to change out a light fixture or install a dimmer switch himself

I think that's a major reason for a lot of people. If you can get a brand new house all shiney and new for 170k, or an older home of similar size for 150k, but needs at least 20k or more of quality "updating", most people will go with the new guy. I've helped friends build new and remodel old, it's not hard work either way, just most people don't have the drive, or think they don't have the knowledge to "try things out" on thier primary residence. Most people don't realize that it's fairly easy to do a lot of things like re-roof, install new counters, water heaters, furnaces etc... It also helps if you know a few people who do it for a living and are willing to help out for a case of beer

[ZachariahDaMan]

Is there any chance of a new urbanism design like that of Cherry Hill in Canton or Town Commons in Howell? I don't mean like the one on 44th st, I mean complete with retail spaces etc. Where can you see it happening? Maybe someone has an inside scoop on a project like this that I'm unaware of.

This is off-topic from what other people are talking about but I live near Cherry Hill Village in Canton and it really does make it look like Canton has its own downtown but the businesses there are taking a long time to sell. There is also a nice little park near it. I will go out and take some pictures for you guys sometime this week. There are some really cool looking houses in Cherry Hill Village too.

[GRDadof3]

I think that's a major reason for a lot of people. If you can get a brand new house all shiney and new for 170k, or an older home of similar size for 150k, but needs at least 20k or more of quality "updating", most people will go with the new guy. I've helped friends build new and remodel old, it's not hard work either way, just most people don't have the drive, or think they don't have the knowledge to "try things out" on thier primary residence. Most people don't realize that it's fairly easy to do a lot of things like re-roof, install new counters, water heaters, furnaces etc... It also helps if you know a few people who do it for a living and are willing to help out for a case of beer

I actually framed our basement and roughed in the electrical and heating ductwork, had a crew drywall and finish the electrical, and then finished off the rest with my wife. Not a bad job, but ended up taking almost 6 mos.

[PBJ]

I actually framed our basement and roughed in the electrical and heating ductwork, had a crew drywall and finish the electrical, and then finished off the rest with my wife. Not a bad job, but ended up taking almost 6 mos.

Exactly, if you don't mind putting some time and effort in to it. But society has turned into "someone else fix it, and do it now" type mentality. Like I said, most the work you can do yourself, just takes a little patience and practice. If this computer nerd can roof a house and hang cabinets, anyone can.

Reminds me of a friend who couldn't hook up a dryer to the gas line

[torgo]

Exactly, if you don't mind putting some time and effort in to it. But society has turned into "someone else fix it, and do it now" type mentality. Like I said, most the work you can do yourself, just takes a little patience and practice. If this computer nerd can roof a house and hang cabinets, anyone can.

Reminds me of a friend who couldn't hook up a dryer to the gas line

Yah a lot of it is much easier that one would think. I framed houses for a coupla years in college, and it wasn't exactly rocket surgery. Well, there we go, getting off-topic again...

[GRDadof3]

Yah a lot of it is much easier that one would think. I framed houses for a coupla years in college, and it wasn't exactly rocket surgery. Well, there we go, getting off-topic again...

Rocket surgery?? We should change this thread name to "This Old House".

[snoogit]

Rocket surgery?? We should change this thread name to "This Old House".

Ha you know some people say I do a great Ted Kennedy impression. Iused to watch that show when I was younger, always got a kick out of Bostonian Accents

"We're goanna dig dis treanch out with a' err shoavel here, and we are 'a gona lay down somma da poasts to secure de foaundation."

[GRDadof3]

On the topic of New Urbanism, the "Village of Orchard Hills" at 3 Mile and Beltline looks like it may not go in as planned. Because of a petition drive to force a referendum in next August's election on the "lifestyle village" concept, it looks like Aikens and BDR Development are going to scrap the "neighborhood" design and move ahead with the standard "strip mall with outlots" that is within the current zoning. I don't think many people put a lot of thought into that petition drive At least the design will retain about 65 townhomes in it.

[torgo]

Coopersville

Some of you may know about it already, as there was a brief article about it in the Press a while back. I don't know if the planning commission has gotten the site plan yet or not.

[GRDadof3]

First a round-a-bout, now a New Urbanism project! Coopersville is the new Portland. J/K. Hope you don't get in trouble for letting that one out of the bag, andy.

[torgo]

First a round-a-bout, now a New Urbanism project! Coopersville is the new Portland. J/K. Hope you don't get in trouble for letting that one out of the bag, andy.

I didn't divulge anything that hasn't been in the Grand Rapids Press.

[Nitro]

Coopersville

Some of you may know about it already, as there was a brief article about it in the Press a while back. I don't know if the planning commission has gotten the site plan yet or not.

I can't remember the exact conversation but I'm pretty sure Mark Miller from Nederveld told me that this project was either dead or on hold. Maybe it's been revived since I talked to him last.

Nitro

[GRDadof3]

BDR Development and Robert Aikens & Assoc. are going to have a "Community Conversation" regarding "The Village" at 3 Mile and E Beltline next Tuesday night from 7 - 8 at Orchard View Elementary (on Leffingwell). Sounds like they are going to try and do the lifestlye village concept after all. I got a really nice flyer in my mailbox stating "Please join us for a community conversation on a new high-end shopping and residential area in Grand Rapids Township". I'm going to try and make it and get some renderings and elevations for you guys.

I also read that Mosaic Properties is looking to do a mixed use retail/office/residential project at Knapp and Leffingwell.

http://www.mosaicproperties.com/index.cfm?section=balsamhill

They need to densify that area more (excluding Evergreen's poor idea at Knapp & Beltline).

[twoshort]

BDR Development and Robert Aikens & Assoc. are going to have a "Community Conversation" regarding "The Village" at 3 Mile and E Beltline next Tuesday night from 7 - 8 at Orchard View Elementary (on Leffingwell).

I have a standing obligation on Tuesday evenings, but if you go take note of any potential retailers they mention. For my fiance of course

[Mark Miller]

The Coopersville project is still alive. The first hurdle to a project like this is the zoning ordinances. Current zoning outlaws the kind of masterplan proposed for Coopersville. So the city plans to create a TND zone for this part of the city. This ordinance will essentially allow the kind of plan that is envisioned. This would include mixed-use buildings, mutiple types of housing (at a variety of price points), a quality public realm, etc.

The first step in this process will be actually masterplanning or potentially zoning this portion of the city as something other than agriculture or low density residential. That portion is in process and the city is using sector plans that are based loosely on the Smart Code as developed by Duany-PlaterZyberk. Another possible implementation procedure could include using the recently comlpleted Smart Code calibration project undertaken by the Grand Valley Metro Council.

The second hurdle is that of land ownership and aquisition. Currently a majority of the land is used as agriculture. Most of it is owned by four or five farmers, who do not have a lot of future possibilities to continue the legacy of farming (primarily because their next generation is not interested in farming). But from a development standpoint, it could be years away in regards to acquiring the land and potentially quite messy and maybe expensive.

The most imporant thing is that the land be masterplanned, zoned and coded for something other than the conventional slag that could be built along this highway corridor. That seems to be in the works.

On this project, there is indeed a rail station, that could someday be used as a passenger rail hub. The tracks are in place and they are owned by, I believe, only two people. So coordination could be relatively easy for acquisition. Of course having passenger rail connecting various urban hubs, is a long long way away. But planning is about the future, so in an ideal setting there would be a rail station here.

The other important attribute to this is that it is really not an isolated pod in a greenfield, but an addition to a real urban place. Attached is the concept illustrative for this property.

As far as the other projects previously discussed, Traders Creek (in Allendale) is just a suburban housing project that happens to employ some of the elements of NU, but they are relatively poorly executed. These include the poor execution of the architecture, but more importantly the lack of conviction of the urban details. Most notably the rolled curb, which only serves to confuse the issue of urbanity in this case. The important positive thing about Traders Creek, is that someday it may be an edge of an urban neighborhood because the township has a masterplan for the portion of land that is adjacent to this. So if it is an edge, that transitions from the more urban center to the more suburban fringe it may be ok. But it is an unnerving place to visit because so many of the most basic things are not quite articulated correctly.

Ditto Winding Creek Circle, which has slightly better executed architecture, but the same basic lack of conviction of the urbanism. There is currently a very poor understanding of what constitutes urbanism, particularly the finer grain details.

Kensington Place has potential. The layout is decent. But architecture has the potential to ruin the project, and the execution of the urban details could prove fatal. The developer has a very strong desire to add berms to every transition between uses. So there are now berms around the central green and potentially berms separating the retail areas from the residential areas. This project originally had very high hopes, primarily because it actually proposed real mixed use. Only time will tell if this gets implemented.

There are some other "traditional" projects in West Michigan, either under construction or in planning that have some attributes, but many lack two very important elements, which are mixed use and connectivity (i.e. not an isolated greenfield). These include:

Knollwood

Cobblestone East

Cobblestone

Garden Park

Cottages at Lites Woods (Pentwater)

Empire extension (Empire)

Bedford Falls (?) in Sparta

Cantebury at old Lake Court (off Lake Drive) - just a Cul de Sac, with traditionally styled HUGE homes

Town Square in Cannon Township - could be a real mixed use community!!!!

Two of these projects, Knollwood and Cottages at Lites Woods, are outperforming what the real estate experts and the lending institutions anticipated.

Unfotunately, Knollwood is nothing more than a traditionally styled housing project. The houses are way too high off the street, in order to achieve that all important daylight basement. The detailing on the homes is less than convincing.

All of these projects do prove that it is slowly trickling into this market. Very slowly.

[GRDadof3]

Excellent summary GR Town Planner! You're a great resource to have around here. Where are Knollwood and Kensington Place? They don't ring a bell.

BTW: You should take your expertise to the downtown market