Greenville Off-Topic

[clt29301]

You are going way off topic....I never said Haywood would gets Neimans or Tiffany....I agree, won't happen. What is happening and where this conversation began is that Haywood is getting better....the city has a plan for the area around Haywood to make it more urban (look at Citylife's post of the plan). It has a solid future, especially given the stores it continues to land and the close in proximity to downtown as the city continues to grow. Again, if you don't factor in the huge corporate presence of offices and hospitals immediately adjacent to Haywood, you don't understand how the Uptown factor can happen. While Haywood road has some typcial suburban fast food places, the area simply isn't a sea of suburban big box and fast food junk like the area around Columbiana. Fluor, Fluor Nuclear, GHS Patewood, Mustang, RMT, etc, etc help anchor the area as a job destination, thereby giving a hand to the future Uptown designation. As for Columbiana, this isn't the Columbia thread, but this "waiting where to land" theory is bunk. The only other area a retailer may choose to land other than Columbiana is Sandhills and sorry, but Sandhills is moderate at best. Last time I was there, it seems to be having leasing problems with lots of empty storefronts and no upper end stores. If Whole Foods, Apple, PFCHangs, etc wanted to be there, they would be there. Cities I've lived in all around the country have had mutiple shopping nodes with middle and upper middle incomes split and they have still been able to land stores like Whole Foods, Apple, etc.

I am not off topic, the point about Neiman & Tiffany was to disagree that the Haywood area is only 7 years behind Southpark. And, if you remember, I did agree that Haywood could reinvent itself. But, there are a lot of challenges (political & economic) to changing a suburban area into a more urban environment. And, in its current state, Haywood is very suburban, you can call Harbison Blvd junk but, as it is today, the Haywood area, including Patewood etc....has been developed in a surburban fashion. Looking at the landscape, parking lots are a dominant feature on Haywood from 385 to Laurens Road, almost every strip center is set back from the road with large parking lots and out parcels of banks & fast food restaurants. Patewood consist of 5 story buildings primarily surrounded by parking lots. Nothing about this development in its current state is anything close to urban or Uptown. It does not mean you can not get there, that is what the plan is for, it just means there will be a lot of work to achieve the type of area that is wanted. And, along the way, the recruitment of higher paying jobs that would support higher end development. As for the "waiting where to land" theory being "bunk", you could not be more wrong. Retailers will wait until the right development opens up to enter a market. As an example, Raleigh boasted that they got a Crate & Barrel at Crabtree before Charlotte, even published a big atricle in the newspaper talking about it. But, Crate (which had offers of cheap rent in other Charlotte centers) waited until the best spot opened at the Village of Southpark to open a stand alone store that is 5x larger than the Crabtree store. Do you really think that Greenville, with lower income levels & lower levels of college educated residents, can magically support PF Changs while Columbia can't. That makes no sense. And, although greenville is the center of the upstate, based on your comment that Greenville is different than the other upstate cities, you could not possibly be getting much retail support from other upstate cities. I know this is not a Columbia thread but, I wanted to answer your comment.

[gs3]

I am not off topic, the point about Neiman & Tiffany was to disagree that the Haywood area is only 7 years behind Southpark. And, if you remember, I did agree that Haywood could reinvent itself. But, there are a lot of challenges (political & economic) to changing a suburban area into a more urban environment. And, in its current state, Haywood is very suburban, you can call Harbison Blvd junk but, as it is today, the Haywood area, including Patewood etc....has been developed in a surburban fashion. Looking at the landscape, parking lots are a dominant feature on Haywood from 385 to Laurens Road, almost every strip center is set back from the road with large parking lots and out parcels of banks & fast food restaurants. Patewood consist of 5 story buildings primarily surrounded by parking lots. Nothing about this development in its current state is anything close to urban or Uptown. It does not mean you can not get there, that is what the plan is for, it just means there will be a lot of work to achieve the type of area that is wanted. And, along the way, the recruitment of higher paying jobs that would support higher end development. As for the "waiting where to land" theory being "bunk", you could not be more wrong. Retailers will wait until the right development opens up to enter a market. As an example, Raleigh boasted that they got a Crate & Barrel at Crabtree before Charlotte, even published a big atricle in the newspaper talking about it. But, Crate (which had offers of cheap rent in other Charlotte centers) waited until the best spot opened at the Village of Southpark to open a stand alone store that is 5x larger than the Crabtree store. Do you really think that Greenville, with lower income levels & lower levels of college educated residents, can magically support PF Changs while Columbia can't. That makes no sense. And, although greenville is the center of the upstate, based on your comment that Greenville is different than the other upstate cities, you could not possibly be getting much retail support from other upstate cities. I know this is not a Columbia thread but, I wanted to answer your comment.

A couple of flaws in your logic (or inconsistencies rather).....about the retailers not entering Columbia....above you state "they wait for the right development", but the article so referenced by all from The State newspaper, says they don't enter because Columbia has two shopping districts....Columbiana and Sandhills, and shoppers are split between the two. So given those facts, if they can't enter with two supposedly nice shopping districts, they can't really be waiting on a third now can they? A third shoppig area would dilute the shopping populace even further. Right? Nice try, but it all sounds a bit of an excuse. Retailers in many other cities I've lived would choose which development to go in, period. Anyway, just glad that Greenville IS getting those retailers and I'm glad most are clustering at Haywood. Landing an Apple store at Haywood kind of speaks volumes about its future.

Again, maybe you are not reading everything....no one is saying Haywood is a perfect midtown/uptown today....it isn't....BUT it has far superior bones and infrastructure to be able to develop into a midtown/uptown than most suburban malls, and, as posted above, the city has a master plan. Given the nature of Haywoods surroundings, it is much less suburban than Columbiana.....maybe you should check out things like the Fluor greenway trail that runs right to Haywood and can eventually be tied into the citywide greenway. Again, this is all about the PLAN to turn this area into an Uptown. Have you read or looked at the plan? If you are an urban enthusiast, then obviously you support this plan? Right? You wouldn't want Haywood to stay stagnant, right? Great that we have city leaders who have success with developing other areas into premier areas (Downtown and West End), and have put together a plan for Haywood. City leaders, nor local retailers want Haywood to stay stagnant and judging by the quality of new store openings, it isn't staying stagnant. The future of Haywood looks pretty rosy.

[clt29301]

A couple of flaws in your logic (or inconsistencies rather).....about the retailers not entering Columbia....above you state "they wait for the right development", but the article so referenced by all from The State newspaper, says they don't enter because Columbia has two shopping districts....Columbiana and Sandhills, and shoppers are split between the two. So given those facts, if they can't enter with two supposedly nice shopping districts, they can't really be waiting on a third now can they? A third shoppig area would dilute the shopping populace even further. Right? Nice try, but it all sounds a bit of an excuse. Retailers in many other cities I've lived would choose which development to go in, period. Anyway, just glad that Greenville IS getting those retailers and I'm glad most are clustering at Haywood. Landing an Apple store at Haywood kind of speaks volumes about its future.

Again, maybe you are not reading everything....no one is saying Haywood is a perfect midtown/uptown today....it isn't....BUT it has far superior bones and infrastructure to be able to develop into a midtown/uptown than most suburban malls, and, as posted above, the city has a master plan. Given the nature of Haywoods surroundings, it is much less suburban than Columbiana.....maybe you should check out things like the Fluor greenway trail that runs right to Haywood and can eventually be tied into the citywide greenway. Again, this is all about the PLAN to turn this area into an Uptown. Have you read or looked at the plan? If you are an urban enthusiast, then obviously you support this plan? Right? You wouldn't want Haywood to stay stagnant, right? Great that we have city leaders who have success with developing other areas into premier areas (Downtown and West End), and have put together a plan for Haywood. City leaders, nor local retailers want Haywood to stay stagnant and judging by the quality of new store openings, it isn't staying stagnant. The future of Haywood looks pretty rosy.

I think you are seeing what you want to believe but, there is no flawed logic and no excuses, the demographics are there in Columbia to support a J Crew, Pottery Barn, PF Changs etc....afterall, they are not exactly high end stores on the same lines as a Burberry, Ralph Lauren etc..... Will they end up in Columbiana or Sandhills, I am not sure. Sandhills is relatively new and not fully built out. Maybe they will go into the old Richland Fashion Mall which is being redeveloped. But, for years the same question was asked about Southpark, why did we not get the stores that were going to Raleigh first. I think I mentioned this earlier but, Raleigh, like you, attributed it to being they were a superior retail market. What the real story was is that they were waiting (even though other centers offered incentives) to see how Southpark would redevelop. At the time, it was owned by Rodamco which had to sell after being in bankruptcy. Since then, SouthPark has attracted better retailers than anyone in either of the Carolinas. In this case, as in many others, retailers will wait until they get the desired location, it is not much harder than that. There are not too many ways to say it but, just because you get the stores first does not tell the entire story of what is going on. If you want to believe Greenville is a superior market, have at it (maybe you should read the Clemson report that was in the Greenville News a couple of weeks ago). But, the economic demographics say that Columbia could support these stores as easily as Greenville.

And, I don't remember saying that Haywood could not or chould not redevelop. However, I do not agree that is has superior bones than most suburban malls. As I said many times now, the plan can succeed but, it will take time to go from where it is today to where you want it to be. Having said that, calling it a midtown or uptown is a stretch. Even Southpark, with more retail & office than downtown Greenville would be hard pressed to say we are a midtown/uptown.

[gs3]

I think you are seeing what you want to believe but, there is no flawed logic and no excuses, the demographics are there in Columbia to support a J Crew, Pottery Barn, PF Changs etc....afterall, they are not exactly high end stores on the same lines as a Burberry, Ralph Lauren etc..... Will they end up in Columbiana or Sandhills, I am not sure. Sandhills is relatively new and not fully built out. Maybe they will go into the old Richland Fashion Mall which is being redeveloped. But, for years the same question was asked about Southpark, why did we not get the stores that were going to Raleigh first. I think I mentioned this earlier but, Raleigh, like you, attributed it to being they were a superior retail market. What the real story was is that they were waiting (even though other centers offered incentives) to see how Southpark would redevelop. At the time, it was owned by Rodamco which had to sell after being in bankruptcy. Since then, SouthPark has attracted better retailers than anyone in either of the Carolinas. In this case, as in many others, retailers will wait until they get the desired location, it is not much harder than that. There are not too many ways to say it but, just because you get the stores first does not tell the entire story of what is going on. If you want to believe Greenville is a superior market, have at it (maybe you should read the Clemson report that was in the Greenville News a couple of weeks ago). But, the economic demographics say that Columbia could support these stores as easily as Greenville.

And, I don't remember saying that Haywood could not or chould not redevelop. However, I do not agree that is has superior bones than most suburban malls. As I said many times now, the plan can succeed but, it will take time to go from where it is today to where you want it to be. Having said that, calling it a midtown or uptown is a stretch. Even Southpark, with more retail & office than downtown Greenville would be hard pressed to say we are a midtown/uptown.

Ummmmm......Sandhills is several years old now with numerous empty storefronts. Bring on the better stores already! Whole Foods has been in Greenville for several years doing very well.....people have to eat....I'm guessing their plan to open a Columbia store is just around the corner.

We agree, the plan can succeed. Baby steps have started.....better stores are coming.....some landscaping has happened......a few road diets are planned......more white collar workers are filling the offices. With all the previous success of other areas of town, no doubt it can succeed. Glad you want to the plan to succeed.

Also, you should probably read up on retailers....maybe you work in retail and know this already, but retailers do not look for "averaged out economic data", they look for specific demographic matches/requirements and pockets of money (very different from averaged citywide HH income).

Edited May 7, 2010 by gsupstate

[gman430]

How you know retailers don't know what they're doing:

-Augusta got Apple and Forever 21 before Greenville.

-Charlotte doesn't have Whole Foods Market or Saks Fifth Avenue but Charleston has both.

-Both Spartanburg and Myrtle Beach have Costco but Columbia doesn't.

-Myrtle Beach has Tommy Bahama and Anthropologie but Greenville doesn't.

Any other questions?

[mallguy]

clt29301, you make some great points and your posts are very well thought-out. I agree with you 100%.

Haywood is the only mall in town and is centrally located, surrounded by middle/upper-middle income areas. I don't see it dying at any point for those reasons, but the rest of Haywood Road- particularly between the mall and Laurens Road- has little going for it.

The city also has had a master plan for Pleasantburg Drive (formerly at pleasantburgdrive.org) for years and look how that's turned out! Even the website is gone.

That Clemson report, showing how Greenville's per capita income was about at the national average but has now fallen significantly below, doesn't bode well for any area seeking redevelopment.

[Greenville]

The city also has had a master plan for Pleasantburg Drive (formerly at pleasantburgdrive.org) for years and look how that's turned out!

The huge renovation of Carolina First Center, as well as the new development with Fresh Market and other retail space, say hello.

[clt29301]

Ummmmm......Sandhills is several years old now with numerous empty storefronts. Bring on the better stores already! Whole Foods has been in Greenville for several years doing very well.....people have to eat....I'm guessing their plan to open a Columbia store is just around the corner.

We agree, the plan can succeed. Baby steps have started.....better stores are coming.....some landscaping has happened......a few road diets are planned......more white collar workers are filling the offices. With all the previous success of other areas of town, no doubt it can succeed. Glad you want to the plan to succeed.

Also, you should probably read up on retailers....maybe you work in retail and know this already, but retailers do not look for "averaged out economic data", they look for specific demographic matches/requirements and pockets of money (very different from averaged citywide HH income).

Retailers do look for averaged out economic data as it relates to a trade area.....a trade area is a very specific area which, if you read back, are the numbers I quoted for you previously. Trade areas can be large or small depending on the store....IKEA (I am sure that a Greenville store at Haywood is imminent because Apple has a store there soon to be followed by Neiman, Billy Reid, True Religion and others) has a large trade area because there are not many stores like IKEA, a Harris Teeter has a small trade area because it serves more of a neighborhood. And you are right, they look at very specific criteria down to possibly who anchors a mall, what spaces are available, how much contiguous space is available, foot traffic etc.......that is exactly what I have said over and over, they will wait for exactly what they want. Crate & Barrel did this with Southpark as well as many other retailers.

As for the Haywood area, other areas of town have had some success. But, this will be a larger challenge than Main Street or West End as you have to recruit more jobs (see Clemson report for Greenville's success), rework the entire road network, and encourage developers with millions invested in current buildings (with rent paying tenants) to competely redo the property to be more street friendly. All of this while building residential in an area that has very little. But, a plan is a good place to start and.....it has a greenway.

It is obvious based on your posts here related to Columbiana & the silly weight cities list, that you are not a fan of Columbia. And, that's fine, not everyone likes the same thing. But, if you have information on vacancy rates at Sandhills or other centers, please share that instead of an observation (numerous empty store fronts????, what does that equate too, 20,000 sq feet out of a million?????). Since you are passing out advice on retail, I am sure you have that somewhere.

Anyway, good luck with your plan.

[gman430]

clt29301, you make some great points and your posts are very well thought-out. I agree with you 100%.

Haywood is the only mall in town and is centrally located, surrounded by middle/upper-middle income areas. I don't see it dying at any point for those reasons, but the rest of Haywood Road- particularly between the mall and Laurens Road- has little going for it.

The city also has had a master plan for Pleasantburg Drive (formerly at pleasantburgdrive.org) for years and look how that's turned out! Even the website is gone.

That Clemson report, showing how Greenville's per capita income was about at the national average but has now fallen significantly below, doesn't bode well for any area seeking redevelopment.

I also agree with clt29301's points. The chances of seeing the master plan for Haywood Road implemented anytime soon is slim to none sadly. It would just cost too much money which the city doesn't have at the present time. Crescent Place won't start construction until 2012 at the earliest due to the current economy.

Like you said mallguy, Haywood Mall might be the largest and highest-end mall in the state but it's the only one in all of Greenville County and it's centrally located. That's why it's able to attract tenants Columbia hasn't been able to do so like Apple and Pottery Barn. Columbia has several malls scattered throughout the metro area which makes it harder to attract these retailers due to less poulation demographics to draw from per mall than Haywood.

The Haywood Road area between Laurens Road and Haywood Mall has nothing going for it except for a new mexican restaurant. Wendy's, Cheeseburger in Paradise, Steve & Barry's, etc. have all closed. Those spaces are still vacant to this day.

Calling the Haywood Road area "Uptown Greenville" is a joke. Parts of the road don't even sidewalks and it's not even close to being on par with Buckhead in Atlanta or Southpark in Charlotte. In ten years, that could change but as of now it is no Uptown in my opinion.

This from one of the Greenville boosters you'll ever meet who hates Columbia.

Edited May 7, 2010 by citylife

[clt29301]

The huge renovation of Carolina First Center, as well as the new development with Fresh Market and other retail space, say hello.

Just a question, not trying to to start anything, but, how much is the Carolina First Center used?

[GvilleSC]

The city also has had a master plan for Pleasantburg Drive (formerly at pleasantburgdrive.org) for years and look how that's turned out! Even the website is gone.

For what it's worth, on Pleasantburg Dr--

The master plan called for renovations and expansion of the then-called Palmetto Expo Center. Today, the Carolina First Center has completed its $22 million renovation.

The master plan also called for redevelopment of McAlister Square and beautification of the corridor. Has anyone driven around McAlister Sq in the last several YEARS? The Camelot movie theater, new Fresh Market/Perone Corners development, and the extensive streetscaping improvements in the immediate surroundings all have taken place.

The City also has a facade improvement program in place.

But, I guess a massive corridor must change overnight, and large steps can't be acknowledged when you're out looking for what seems to be a fight...?

[gs3]

Retailers do look for averaged out economic data as it relates to a trade area.....a trade area is a very specific area which, if you read back, are the numbers I quoted for you previously. Trade areas can be large or small depending on the store....IKEA (I am sure that a Greenville store at Haywood is imminent because Apple has a store there soon to be followed by Neiman, Billy Reid, True Religion and others) has a large trade area because there are not many stores like IKEA, a Harris Teeter has a small trade area because it serves more of a neighborhood. And you are right, they look at very specific criteria down to possibly who anchors a mall, what spaces are available, how much contiguous space is available, foot traffic etc.......that is exactly what I have said over and over, they will wait for exactly what they want. Crate & Barrel did this with Southpark as well as many other retailers.

As for the Haywood area, other areas of town have had some success. But, this will be a larger challenge than Main Street or West End as you have to recruit more jobs (see Clemson report for Greenville's success), rework the entire road network, and encourage developers with millions invested in current buildings (with rent paying tenants) to competely redo the property to be more street friendly. All of this while building residential in an area that has very little. But, a plan is a good place to start and.....it has a greenway.

It is obvious based on your posts here related to Columbiana & the silly weight cities list, that you are not a fan of Columbia. And, that's fine, not everyone likes the same thing. But, if you have information on vacancy rates at Sandhills or other centers, please share that instead of an observation (numerous empty store fronts????, what does that equate too, 20,000 sq feet out of a million?????). Since you are passing out advice on retail, I am sure you have that somewhere.

Anyway, good luck with your plan.

You are welcome to find all the current mall info you need (sales per sq foot, vacancies, etc) at www.icsc.org Do a little investigative work at the site.

Since this is the Greenville forum, one last thing on the Columbia lack of retail stores and I'll move on.....the contradictions about why better retail is not there....funny to watch the circular spin motion.

1. Columbiana was there with a solid base, the city had higher HH income than GV, but better stores didn't open.

2. Then, in the height of the spend, spend years, Sandhills opens. It didn't attract better stores either.

3. Now the excuse is better stores aren't coming because the population is split between Sandhills and Columbiana and that retailers are waiting for the right spot.

4. So better retailers can't open in one of two solid spots because the population is split, but they will open in a new third spot when the population is split up even more....3 ways?

Very funny....not logical.

As Haywood continues to mature and works toward its plan, you'll have to visit. It won't be any easy task, but neither was downtown....city center has been 20 years in the re-making. Keep checking the area out as it keeps improving. One would almost think by your post that you aren't wanting to see improvement at Haywood, but we all know that isn't true.

[mallguy]

For what it's worth, on Pleasantburg Dr--

The master plan called for renovations and expansion of the then-called Palmetto Expo Center. Today, the Carolina First Center has completed its $22 million renovation.

The master plan also called for redevelopment of McAlister Square and beautification of the corridor. Has anyone driven around McAlister Sq in the last several YEARS? The Camelot movie theater, new Fresh Market/Perone Corners development, and the extensive streetscaping improvements in the immediate surroundings all have taken place.

The City also has a facade improvement program in place.

But, I guess a massive corridor must change overnight, and large steps can't be acknowledged when you're out looking for what seems to be a fight...?

OK, those are fair points. Some progress has been made on Pleasantburg.

I recall seeing the master plan, though- Pleasantburg Shopping Center and McAlister Square being totally transformed into mixed-use, high-density developments, with housing, office and retail, and lots of new construction (such as transforming the McAlister Square parking lot into a village-type development); beautiful streetscaping (much more than has happened), making Pleasantburg a really nice-looking boulevard; big retail developments (with claims that the area could and would support hundreds of thousands of square feet of new stores); etc. Apart from McAlister stabilizing, and the Carolina First Center being remodeled and the new Fresh Market, there hasn't been much else. Pleasantburg Shopping Center is further deteriorating; the '60s sprawl along Plesantburg has deteriorated as well, with check-cashing stores sprouting up; and not much else.

Of course, in gsupstate's view, since a grocery store opened, this means that Greenville is the center of the universe and absolutely nothing bad could ever go wrong.

[gs3]

OK, those are fair points. Some progress has been made on Pleasantburg.

I recall seeing the master plan, though- Pleasantburg Shopping Center and McAlister Square being totally transformed into mixed-use, high-density developments, with housing, office and retail, and lots of new construction (such as transforming the McAlister Square parking lot into a village-type development); beautiful streetscaping (much more than has happened), making Pleasantburg a really nice-looking boulevard; big retail developments (with claims that the area could and would support hundreds of thousands of square feet of new stores); etc. Apart from McAlister stabilizing, and the Carolina First Center being remodeled and the new Fresh Market, there hasn't been much else. Pleasantburg Shopping Center is further deteriorating; the '60s sprawl along Plesantburg has deteriorated as well, with check-cashing stores sprouting up; and not much else.

Of course, in gsupstate's view, since a grocery store opened, this means that Greenville is the center of the universe and absolutely nothing bad could ever go wrong.

I'm certainly glad Greenville is a "glass half full" type city. Big hugs and wet smoochie kisses mallguy. Love ya!!!!!

- Greenville Tech expansion

- McAlister Square redone as part of Greenville Tech

- Upper end Fresh Market opening along with numerous small retailers in small center

- Reopening of Camelot Theater

- Some new landscaping / some new bus shelters

- Total remodel of Carolina First Center

- Redo of Astro underway for part of Greenville Tech

The area is trying and obviously having some success. Glad to see you are interested in the success of the area mallguy.

Edited May 7, 2010 by gsupstate

[clt29301]

You are welcome to find all the current mall info you need (sales per sq foot, vacancies, etc) at www.icsc.org Do a little investigative work at the site.

Since this is the Greenville forum, one last thing on the Columbia lack of retail stores and I'll move on.....the contradictions about why better retail is not there....funny to watch the circular spin motion.

1. Columbiana was there with a solid base, the city had higher HH income than GV, but better stores didn't open.

2. Then, in the height of the spend, spend years, Sandhills opens. It didn't attract better stores either.

3. Now the excuse is better stores aren't coming because the population is split between Sandhills and Columbiana and that retailers are waiting for the right spot.

4. So better retailers can't open in one of two solid spots because the population is split, but they will open in a new third spot when the population is split up even more....3 ways?

Very funny....not logical.

As Haywood continues to mature and works toward its plan, you'll have to visit. It won't be any easy task, but neither was downtown....city center has been 20 years in the re-making. Keep checking the area out as it keeps improving. One would almost think by your post that you aren't wanting to see improvement at Haywood, but we all know that isn't true.

It is obvious that you have strong feeling against Columbia and that is fine. Not everyone likes Columbia, not everyone likes Charlotte etc...... But, it seems that you are more interested in your self created "spin motion" theory than looking at actual economic data used by retailers and most others when talking about cities, being an "urban enthusiast" is the term you used. So, yes, absent anything other than your unsubstantiated theory and "a lot of empty storefront" observations, I agree, it is time to move on, that is very logical.

As for Haywood, good luck on your plan to become a mini Buckhead, "Uptown Greenville".

[gs3]

As for Haywood, good luck on your plan to become a mini Buckhead, "Uptown Greenville".

Uptown Greenville will be just that....Uptown Greenville. It's own identity. Not trying to copy any city. Lots of work ahead, but Greenville has a strong history in regards to renewing areas. Most local citizens look at challenges as opportunities.

As the area progresses, hopefully you'll visit. Cheers!

Edited May 7, 2010 by gsupstate

[mallguy]

Most local citizens look at challenges as opportunities.

And unlike you, they do careful analyses of proposals' costs, benefits, realistic chances of success, limitations and more. Unlike you, they don't just look at one aspect of a situation and then rudely try to shut down other viewpoints.

EDITED TO ADD: Nor do they get all excited over, say, a Macy's. They have a life.

Edited May 7, 2010 by mallguy

[gs3]

And unlike you, they do careful analyses of proposals' costs, benefits, realistic chances of success, limitations and more. Unlike you, they don't just look at one aspect of a situation and then rudely try to shut down other viewpoints.

EDITED TO ADD: Nor do they get all excited over, say, a Macy's. They have a life.

Glad you agree we Greenvillians have great lives. Try it out, you too can be happy.

[mallguy]

Glad you agree we Greenvillians have great lives. Try it out, you too can be happy.

I'm from Greenville.

My post differentiated between other Greenvillians and you, FYI.

[gman430]

If "Uptown Greenville" will have its own identity, why were you originally saying it was only 7 years behind SouthPark and would be like Lenox? As for the invitation, I'll pass. But, feel free to visit Charlotte for IKEA, Neiman, Nordstrom etc...........of course, based on your theories, I am sure they will be on Haywood Road beside the Greenway in no time, afterall, the Apple store is a leading indicator.

Possibly gsupstate was referring to being 7 years behind in terms of retail/restaurant offerings? And you can feel free to visit Greenville for Whole Foods Market along with Charleston for Saks Fifth Avenue. I'm sure both of those will be in Charlotte in no time either. After all, Southpark with its elite retail is the leading indicator right?

Edited May 8, 2010 by citylife

[clt29301]

Uptown Greenville will be just that....Uptown Greenville. It's own identity. Not trying to copy any city. Lots of work ahead, but Greenville has a strong history in regards to renewing areas. Most local citizens look at challenges as opportunities.

As the area progresses, hopefully you'll visit. Cheers!

If "Uptown Greenville" will have its own identity, why were you originally saying it was only 7 years behind SouthPark and would be like Lenox? As for the invitation, I'll pass. But, feel free to visit Charlotte for IKEA, Neiman, Nordstrom etc...........of course, based on your theories, I am sure they will be on Haywood Road beside the Greenway in no time, afterall, the Apple store is a leading indicator.

[clt29301]

Possibly gsupstate was referring to being 7 years behind in terms of retail/restaurant offerings? And you can feel free to visit Greenville for Whole Foods Market along with Charleston for Saks Fifth Avenue. I'm sure both of those will be in Charlotte in no time either. After all, Southpark with its elite retail is the leading indicator right?

Your guess is as good as mine as to what he was talking about. And, I think we have more than enough in Charlotte to keep us happy. But, you are right, given the right location, I am sure they will be here. Whole Foods has chosen a site here in SouthPark but, it is part of a large mixed use project with a couple of 20 story buildings. Exclusive of the economy, it should prove to be an interesting rezoning decision as buildings with 20+ stories have traditionally been in the central business district. And, you are right again, Southpark, along with Lenox/Phipps & Crabtree, is a leading retail district in the southeast.

[Greenville]

Well look at that, little 'ol Greenville is being compared to big city Charlotte! Tiny and insignificant Greenville, population 56,000, compared to Charlotte and all of its high-falutin' city folk! Who woulda thunk it?!?

[mallguy]

Charlotte was supposed to get a Saks, before the Village at Seven Eagles site fiasco. I think that the chain is now not in expansion mode.

Charleston has luxury tourist traffic along King Street. I know that gsupstate raves about the beauty and tourist draw of the Laurens Rd./Pleasantburg Drive intersection, but I don't see a Saks heading there at least.

[GvilleSC]

Clt, Have you looked at the plans for the Haywood corridor? Aka: the area that will be branded as "Uptown"? The aim is a mixed-use district that utilizes new urbanism development techniques, which, entails better connectivity and promotes mass transportation. Yes, it will increase density, population, and office space. It will also give the area an entirely new "feel"-- something that you seem to be caught up in. Nonetheless, the point is this: Greenville has a desire to act on an opportunity that will reinvent an area, and reinvest in itself. It's not aiming to be some place else. It is what it is.