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Spartan

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OMG!!! It is Liberty Bridge #2............check this out. A friend today told me about the new Canopy Walk in Atlanta's Botanical Garden (I believe the bridge/walk opens this week or next). The idea, the design, etc, etc IS Liberty Bridge. Imagine that....Atlanta copies little old Greenville. :lol: Check out the link:

http://atlantabotanicalgarden.org/site/involvement/canopy_walk

LOL! It really is the Liberty Bridge! :lol:

They can have this if we can remake Uptown into our own version of Buckhead. Deal? ;)

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LOL! It really is the Liberty Bridge! :lol:

They can have this if we can remake Uptown into our own version of Buckhead. Deal? ;

Deal.....but key on "our own version". I was at the Grand Hyatt Buckhead last night....Buckhead, after all these years, still has serious pedestrian / walkability issues.

Edited by gsupstate
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Deal.....but key on "our own version". I was at the Grand Hyatt Buckhead last night....Buckhead, after all these years, still has serious pedestrian / walkability issues.

Nice hotel. :shades:

I agree about pedestrian issues though. The aspect of Buckhead I would like to see us emulate in Uptown involves the high-end retail, nice condos, etc. The Uptown area has a long way to go to become more pedestrian-friendly, but hopefully it can take some lessons from our award-winning downtown.

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Nice hotel. :shades:

I agree about pedestrian issues though. The aspect of Buckhead I would like to see us emulate in Uptown involves the high-end retail, nice condos, etc. The Uptown area has a long way to go to become more pedestrian-friendly, but hopefully it can take some lessons from our award-winning downtown.

Buckhead is indeed a cool place. But, it is not only bad for pedestrians, it is bad for car traffic too. I think it is too late to do anything about it.

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Buckhead is indeed a cool place. But, it is not only bad for pedestrians, it is bad for car traffic too. I think it is too late to do anything about it.

Which is why I want to see our Uptown do a better job with pedestrian as well as automobile traffic. But keep the nice shopping and condo aspects of Buckhead. :)

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Uptown?

Haywood Road?

It's a strip of mid-tier '80s sprawl!

Like calling GSP the Jetport!

Have you seen the master plan recently developed for Haywood Road, AKA Uptown? Outstanding. Obviously we're not there yet, but we could be well on our way in the not-too-distant future. :thumbsup:

Jetport, Daniel Building, and McAlister Square are not in my vocabulary. :ermm:

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Have you seen the master plan recently developed for Haywood Road, AKA Uptown? Outstanding. Obviously we're not there yet, but we could be well on our way in the not-too-distant future. :thumbsup:

Jetport, Daniel Building, and McAlister Square are not in my vocabulary. :ermm:

Yes, I've seen the master plan for the area. Haywood Road would need to be totally transformed- it's now deteriorating mid-tier '80s sprawl and will take significant work to make it worthy of a higher-end sounding name.

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Quick, someone call Apple and let them know they are opening in an 80's deteriorating area. Let Macy's know they shouldn't have remodeled. Tell Anthropologie to stop looking in this area. Tell all the other new stores that have recently opened in Haywood to simply close. Tell Copper River their number one performing new location is a figment of their mind because it is in a deteriorating area. Oh, and let Fluor know to lay off those 3,500 people and stop adding jobs because their campus is in a deteriorating area. :rofl::rofl:

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Quick, someone call Apple and let them know they are opening in an 80's deteriorating area. Let Macy's know they shouldn't have remodeled. Tell Anthropologie to stop looking in this area. Tell all the other new stores that have recently opened in Haywood to simply close. Tell Copper River their number one performing new location is a figment of their mind because it is in a deteriorating area. Oh, and let Fluor know to lay off those 3,500 people and stop adding jobs because their campus is in a deteriorating area. :rofl::rofl:

Wow, a Macy's! Big time!

Plenty of malls attract stores despite being in areas that go downhill soon thereafter- McAlister Square did a re-do in 1990/91 and got plenty of new stores then, despite going under just a few years later.

You were not living in Greenville then so you may not be familiar with that mall then.

Edited by mallguy
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Wow, a Macy's! Big time!

You may have mis-read. I said Macy's and their remodel. Macy's is average at best. But, surely you know that as you know more than the site location team for say Apple. Apple would never go into a deteriorating area, would they? Apple is sought after and choosy about their locations. Funny, I remember a day and time when Lenox was old and 60's.....Southpark was old and 70's.....look at them now.....Haywood is old and 80's, it is obviously getting better. You also never believed a Fresh Market would go at the corner of Pleasantburg and Laurens as that area was supposed to be dead. Hmmmmmmm.....not so much. I realize you used to live here and may have understood Greenville at one time. If you'd like, I can help you understand the new white collar demographic from larger cities that has moved here and now driving retail sales. PM me if you'd like. ;)

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Wow, a Macy's! Big time!

Plenty of malls attract stores despite being in areas that go downhill soon thereafter- McAlister Square did a re-do in 1990/91 and got plenty of new stores then, despite going under just a few years later.

You were not living in Greenville then so you may not be familiar with that mall then.

I was living in Greenville at the time, and McAlister Square was nowhere close to being on par with Haywood Mall then - and certainly not what Haywood is today. The fact that McAlister Square went under had nothing to do with their remodel, and everything to do with the stores they attracted (which were easily a step or two below Haywood).

In contrast, Haywood Mall is a regional mall, and the largest mall in the state. It is continually adding stores, and upgrading its facilities as well as the quality of stores it attracts. That will have a positive impact on the area which surrounds it, and will help fuel the Uptown master plan.

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You may have mis-read.

No, I didn't misread. I don't need your arrogance or your advice, such as your misinformation about one of your former employers- an employer that I also did work for, and whose senior management contradicted what you posted [EDITED TO ADD] and whose public filings contradict what you said. Nor do I rely much on your advice about all of those luxury stores that were heading to Magnolia Park, among other things.

Edited by mallguy
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Well, we will all see eventually what will happen to the Haywood Road corridor. Personally, I'm putting some stock in the master plan. :thumbsup:

Most people put stock in it and the city has a track record. To suddenly say the same city that turned downtown into a showplace and the same city that turned bombed out West End into a thriving district can't help take Haywood to the next level....that simply isn't logical. Especially given the fact Haywood is already improving....ie: Apple.

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Wasn't sure what thread to put this under. As we all know, Greenville ranks high on many national list. Here is a list where we did not even make the top 100.....and be glad we didn't.....it is a list of America's top 100 heaviest cities.

http://health.msn.co...57787&gt1=31036

Having lived in the upstate and now Charlotte, there is no way Charlotte would be on this list and no other SC cities. And, Columbia, with a higher education level and income than Greenville, is very surprising.

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Having lived in the upstate and now Charlotte, there is no way Charlotte would be on this list and no other SC cities. And, Columbia, with a higher education level and income than Greenville, is very surprising.

The list is the list, but I agree that Charlotte being on the list shocks me....Charlotte has a sizeable jogging community and a good cycling community as well.....but it was way down at 75 (right with New York) so that is basically average. By the way, where in the Upstate did you live.....Greenville? If not, quite the difference in Greenville and other parts of the Upstate.

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You may have mis-read. I said Macy's and their remodel. Macy's is average at best. But, surely you know that as you know more than the site location team for say Apple. Apple would never go into a deteriorating area, would they? Apple is sought after and choosy about their locations. Funny, I remember a day and time when Lenox was old and 60's.....Southpark was old and 70's.....look at them now.....Haywood is old and 80's, it is obviously getting better. You also never believed a Fresh Market would go at the corner of Pleasantburg and Laurens as that area was supposed to be dead. Hmmmmmmm.....not so much. I realize you used to live here and may have understood Greenville at one time. If you'd like, I can help you understand the new white collar demographic from larger cities that has moved here and now driving retail sales. PM me if you'd like. wink.gif

I agree with the last part of this, I don't see a reason that Haywood could not be turned into a nicer area (although, I am not sure you will have a "uptown"feel), it will just take time and political will. A lot of the current development will need to be changed and Simon will have to create an better appearance for the mall (which I am sure they will over time). This is the obvious but, what the area needs is higher density housing to drive better demographics as well as more office space. As an example, I am not sure how far out the trade area is defined but, the average HH income for this area is 19% less than SouthPark and around 27% less than Lenox. Haywood and Columbiana actually have very similar average HH incomes in the respective trade areas. More office/residential would help Haywood become more than just a regional mall.

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I agree with the last part of this, I don't see a reason that Haywood could not be turned into a nicer area (although, I am not sure you will have a "uptown"feel), it will just take time and political will. A lot of the current development will need to be changed and Simon will have to create an better appearance for the mall (which I am sure they will over time). This is the obvious but, what the area needs is higher density housing to drive better demographics as well as more office space. As an example, I am not sure how far out the trade area is defined but, the average HH income for this area is 19% less than SouthPark and around 27% less than Lenox. Haywood and Columbiana actually have very similar average HH incomes in the respective trade areas. More office/residential would help Haywood become more than just a regional mall.

More office and residential? You got it: http://www.choldings...lace%202009.pdf Sadly we gotta wait for the economy to improve more before it starts construction. ermm.gif

Edited by citylife
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I agree with the last part of this, I don't see a reason that Haywood could not be turned into a nicer area (although, I am not sure you will have a "uptown"feel), it will just take time and political will. A lot of the current development will need to be changed and Simon will have to create an better appearance for the mall (which I am sure they will over time). This is the obvious but, what the area needs is higher density housing to drive better demographics as well as more office space. As an example, I am not sure how far out the trade area is defined but, the average HH income for this area is 19% less than SouthPark and around 27% less than Lenox. Haywood and Columbiana actually have very similar average HH incomes in the respective trade areas. More office/residential would help Haywood become more than just a regional mall.

Makes sense. 19% less than Southpark puts Haywood where Southpark was 5 to 7 years ago. The good thing about Haywood is that the regional draw is HUGE. No other major mall with better stores until Charlotte or Atlanta. Both Westgate and Anderson Mall are moderate at best. At the epicenter of 1.2 million people and getting stores like Apple, etc. gives Haywood a huge advantage. I agree, the city does need to work on housing around Haywood, but that is part of the master plan. The good thing about Haywood is the white collar jobs....the ever expanding GHS Patewood Campus as well as the 3,500 jobs at Fluor and Fluor Nuclear, which are skewed toward 6 figure incomes immediately at the mall. I dare say that many high paying jobs rivals the immediate area around malls in much larger cities. On your last point about Columbiana and Haywood, really not much to compare. Haywood's location is much closer to downtown and more midtown (Uptown in nature) while Columbiana is strictly suburban. If the HH incomes are identical, for some reason retailers fail to see it, with Haywood having a much better line of stores than Columbiana (Apple, Pottery Barn, Aldo, J.Crew, Godiva, etc, etc.).

Edited by gsupstate
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Makes sense. 19% less than Southpark puts Haywood where Southpark was 5 to 7 years ago. The good thing about Haywood is that the regional draw is HUGE. No other major mall with better stores until Charlotte or Atlanta. Both Westgate and Anderson Mall are moderate at best. At the epicenter of 1.2 million people and getting stores like Apple, etc. gives Haywood a huge advantage. I agree, the city does need to work on housing around Haywood, but that is part of the master plan. The good thing about Haywood is the white collar jobs....the ever expanding GHS Patewood Campus as well as the 3,500 jobs at Fluor and Fluor Nuclear, which are skewed toward 6 figure incomes immediately at the mall. I dare say that many high paying jobs rivals the immediate area around malls in much larger cities. On your last point about Columbiana and Haywood, really not much to compare. Haywood's location is much closer to downtown and more midtown (Uptown in nature) while Columbiana is strictly suburban. If the HH incomes are identical, for some reason retailers fail to see it, with Haywood having a much better line of stores than Columbiana (Apple, Pottery Barn, Aldo, J.Crew, Godiva, etc, etc.).

While it is true that Greenville is growing, making up average HH incomes will be a very hard thing to do. Clemson recently (past couple of months) published a study which showed Greenville's demographics lagging both the target cities (Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham)) and peer cities (Columbia amoung others) both in absolute values as well as rate of income growth. Greenville is moving in the right direction and has a lot of advantages but, it will take time. Besides, it not only takes high HH incomes, it takes a lot of density, SouthPark's trade area is approaching 900k, Haywood is less than 500k...the office space around SouthPark is in excess of 5m sq feet, more than twice downtown Greenville. So I think it will be more than 7 years before Haywood will see a Tiffany or Neiman. It is not a bad mall but, I think it is more than 7 years behind SouthPark in development. I agree, Columbiana is suburban but, in it's current state, Haywood is still very suburban. It is closer to downtown but, it is not an urban center. As for why retailers do not see it (Columbia), I think a couple of things are going on. First, Columbiana's owner (General Growth) is bankrupt, there is not a ton of money to pay for upfits/expansions while on the other hand, Haywood is run by Simon (who is bidding for General Growth). Simon is a terrific developer (the own SouthPark, Lenox and Phipps Plaza) with a lot of connections troughout the retail world. Second, I think Columbia has a couple of wealthy pockets between Irmo, Forest Acres and Spring Valley. Since retailers seem to cluster, it is a waiting game to see who goes where at this point.

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While it is true that Greenville is growing, making up average HH incomes will be a very hard thing to do. Clemson recently (past couple of months) published a study which showed Greenville's demographics lagging both the target cities (Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham)) and peer cities (Columbia amoung others) both in absolute values as well as rate of income growth. Greenville is moving in the right direction and has a lot of advantages but, it will take time. Besides, it not only takes high HH incomes, it takes a lot of density, SouthPark's trade area is approaching 900k, Haywood is less than 500k...the office space around SouthPark is in excess of 5m sq feet, more than twice downtown Greenville. So I think it will be more than 7 years before Haywood will see a Tiffany or Neiman. It is not a bad mall but, I think it is more than 7 years behind SouthPark in development. I agree, Columbiana is suburban but, in it's current state, Haywood is still very suburban. It is closer to downtown but, it is not an urban center. As for why retailers do not see it (Columbia), I think a couple of things are going on. First, Columbiana's owner (General Growth) is bankrupt, there is not a ton of money to pay for upfits/expansions while on the other hand, Haywood is run by Simon (who is bidding for General Growth). Simon is a terrific developer (the own SouthPark, Lenox and Phipps Plaza) with a lot of connections troughout the retail world. Second, I think Columbia has a couple of wealthy pockets between Irmo, Forest Acres and Spring Valley. Since retailers seem to cluster, it is a waiting game to see who goes where at this point.

You are going way off topic....I never said Haywood would gets Neimans or Tiffany....I agree, won't happen. What is happening and where this conversation began is that Haywood is getting better....the city has a plan for the area around Haywood to make it more urban (look at Citylife's post of the plan). It has a solid future, especially given the stores it continues to land and the close in proximity to downtown as the city continues to grow. Again, if you don't factor in the huge corporate presence of offices and hospitals immediately adjacent to Haywood, you don't understand how the Uptown factor can happen. While Haywood road has some typcial suburban fast food places, the area simply isn't a sea of suburban big box and fast food junk like the area around Columbiana. Fluor, Fluor Nuclear, GHS Patewood, Mustang, RMT, etc, etc help anchor the area as a job destination, thereby giving a hand to the future Uptown designation. As for Columbiana, this isn't the Columbia thread, but this "waiting where to land" theory is bunk. The only other area a retailer may choose to land other than Columbiana is Sandhills and sorry, but Sandhills is moderate at best. Last time I was there, it seems to be having leasing problems with lots of empty storefronts and no upper end stores. If Whole Foods, Apple, PFCHangs, etc wanted to be there, they would be there. Cities I've lived in all around the country have had mutiple shopping nodes with middle and upper middle incomes split and they have still been able to land stores like Whole Foods, Apple, etc.

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