This building boom seems insanely large

[virgo20]

When it comes to Charlotte I completely agree about the laws in NC being business friendly compared to Connectiicut.

However,, I've spent time in Charlotte. I have to as I do some work with NASCAR. At night the downtown is deader than Harttford. And if you don't think they have natural disasters there, you haven't seen the name of their hockey team. And culturally, the city is a void. That may come in time but it's still a cultural backwash.

But you completely miss the point. New England is not going to dry up. The Hartford area is growing and has been. The demographic trends in the city are a result of the tiny area it covers. If Hartford were the physical size of Charlotte, iit would compare quite well.

Again, I agree that the laws are less friendly. But that has to do with the fact Hartford is a mature city and the south had no industry to regulate until the 1970's.

If your post contained a single fact, I've yet to find it. But don't let that stop you from a good tirade. BTW, next time format your post by using paragraphs like we do in the north.

Well, I might be void of creating paragraphs , but you obviously failed reading comprehension 101. I live in Rhode Island and have lived in Hartford. CT. (which is more than I can say for you) My point has nothing to do with Conn., Hartford, or Rhode Island for that matter. It has to do with New England , its assets, its priorities, and its future. It doesn't matter that the South was 30 years ago...it's what they're creating today..Without a regional alliance to address issues that affect us as a region, the economic prosperity in our future is short-lived. Period. Like I said...all of N.E. is half the size of Texas....It has nothing to do with square miles.

[virgo20]

Hey, I spend time in Charlotte, remember. I Grew up in CT and have business there as well. I was in Hartford in September.

A hurricane came through North Carolina earlier this year. The reason the out banks are outer bannks is because NC is constantly slammed with huricanes. Raleigh is further north than Charlotte and their team is the Hurricanes, get it?

The south in general had no unions in the 50s, 60, and 70s. Cheap non-union labor drove the growth of those cities. Northern cities are more and heavily uniioned. That is why the business friendly climate exist in Charlotte and not Boston, Providence or Worchester or Hartford. It's nice that Charlotte had a steel mill but compared to the noorth it was hardly industrialized in the 70s.

As recently as last Presidents Day weekend, I walked night I walked the streeets of Charlotte, downtown Charlotte, from my hotel to dinner, and didn't run into another soul.

There isn't an exhibit in Charlotte to match the Athenium's current surrealist exhibit. On a list of American cultural centers, Charlotte is far, far down the list whether you measure by art collection, ehtnic restaurants or historical significance. Heck, I lived in Atlanta which is culturally light years ahead of Charlotte and that was a cultural void compared to New England.

I have no bone to pick with Charlotte but THOSE ARE THE FACTS. That flamer came over here with his anti-northern rhetoric and alll I'mm doing is setting the record straight..

You are as dumb as you are ignorant.

[virgo20]

hmmm...Boston income per capita ranked number 5 in the country, year over year change 1.3%; Hartford number 18, year over year change 1.9%; Providence number 77, year over year change 3.3%; Charlotte number 52, year over year change 2.9%; Atlanta number 51, year over year change 2.4%.

Income per capita U.S. 32K, CT 45K, MA 41K, GA 30K, NC 29K. If you are in finance and real estate, you will have better luck chasing money in New England.

I live in Hartford, and I have a business in downtown Hartford. Yes, I can relate to the issues that affect Hartford. However, my issues are not necessary your issues, and my solutions are not necessary your solutions.

I doubt West Hartford and Glastonbury use more social service and welfare than Hartford.

Then explain to me how prices in Hartford/Boston/Providence increased.

What is your point? The property values have decreased in Boston and Providence the last quarter and will continue to decrease because of over-appreciation in the last few years. My whole point is geared to a cohesion effort by N.E. as a whole that focuses on universal issues that affect us as a region.

I started checking out Urban Planet a few months back because I was interested in all the development around Providence. Later, the passion I have for my city grew to a point where I felt I wanted to be actively involved.Then, I realized that there are so many misguided , misinformed, selfish people in Rhode Island and N.E. that don't truly recognize the needs of the region as a whole . I want nothing more than to stay here. I love Providence and I love N.E., but I am becoming increasingly frustrated with people that don't really see the grand scheme of things in terms of LONG-TERM development. The South is capitalizing on this and that it is a reality! PERIOD!

[virgo20]

As I've said. I have no bone to pick with Charlotte, except when it's held up to be this incredible lifestyle ciity that shames New England. It flat ain't.

Again, we already know you failed reading comprehension, but now we know English grammar 101 too!

[HartfordTycoon]

What is your point? The property values have decreased in Boston and Providence the last quarter and will continue to decrease because of over-appreciation in the last few years. My whole point is geared to a cohesion effort by N.E. as a whole that focuses on universal issues that affect us as a region.

I started checking out Urban Planet a few months back because I was interested in all the development around Providence. Later, the passion I have for my city grew to a point where I felt I wanted to be actively involved.Then, I realized that there are so many misguided , misinformed, selfish people in Rhode Island and N.E. that don't truly recognize the needs of the region as a whole . I want nothing more than to stay here. I love Providence and I love N.E., but I am becoming increasingly frustrated with people that don't really see the grand scheme of things in terms of LONG-TERM development. The South is capitalizing on this and that it is a reality! PERIOD!

I really do see your point. I just said it about New England. They have mastered regionalism in the sun belt and we are still in it's infant stages. An Idea so simple should not be that hard to grasp.

[SOCOM]

Well, that's exactly my point!

What exactly is your point? You're whining about problems that we are well aware of, and have discussed in depth many times.

[TheBostonian]

WE know that the Hartford METRO is one of the richest in the country but we should ashamed that the CITY of Hartford (and Connecticut's other big cities) are among the most poverty ridden. We look at a place like Charlotte and say, well it's 230 square miles you can't compare. Well, what DOES work when a city is that large geographically? For one, the school system isn't segregated into rich v. poor neighborhoods. There's fiscal efficiency b/c there's no duplication of services (fire, water, police, etc.) for the citizens of the region. There's effective regional planning that in the case of Charlotte - which sprawls no more or less than other large cities - focuses development around nodes that will soon be served by light rail.

Excellent point about the benefits of geographically large cities.

[Germaine]

Excellent point about the benefits of geographically large cities.

Thank you Bostonian and others.

Indeed there are a lot of things we can learn from other places...even in our own backyard from places like Boston, Portland, and Providence. I mention Charlotte b/c I travel there as a Smart Growth development consultant. It challenged my own prejudices about Charlotte and North Carolina, which I'm ashamed to say now were that it was a backward, redneck, unsophisticated place being swallowed up by sprawl. It was a humbling initial experience to say the least!

Here's a place in suburban Charlotte that isn't unique to that area anymore (it was built in 2000 I think...). It was built in a greenfield but the local ordinance requires that high density development surround this node. There is now bus service from the "new" center to downtown. Notice what they copied about the architecture...

Birkdale Village

[jcrc]

What is your point? The property values have decreased in Boston and Providence the last quarter and will continue to decrease because of over-appreciation in the last few years. My whole point is geared to a cohesion effort by N.E. as a whole that focuses on universal issues that affect us as a region.

I started checking out Urban Planet a few months back because I was interested in all the development around Providence. Later, the passion I have for my city grew to a point where I felt I wanted to be actively involved.Then, I realized that there are so many misguided , misinformed, selfish people in Rhode Island and N.E. that don't truly recognize the needs of the region as a whole . I want nothing more than to stay here. I love Providence and I love N.E., but I am becoming increasingly frustrated with people that don't really see the grand scheme of things in terms of LONG-TERM development. The South is capitalizing on this and that it is a reality! PERIOD!

The point is if you go where the money is, then it is north east not south. A quarter of decrease is not a long term decline. Fact is NE is a lot more prosper than South. Hartford and other CT cities are in bad shape, but to say Boston is doing poorly is incoreect. Regarding regional cooperation, OK so there is none, but that does not mean individual city like Hartford shouldn't try its best to pull it out of its long long decline. Hartford has a lot of problems that lack of regional cohesive policy has nothing to do with, and they need to be solved by the city.

[Germaine]

The point is if you go where the money is, then it is north east not south. A quarter of decrease is not a long term decline. Fact is NE is a lot more prosper than South. Hartford and other CT cities are in bad shape, but to say Boston is doing poorly is incoreect. Regarding regional cooperation, OK so there is none, but that does not mean individual city like Hartford shouldn't try its best to pull it out of its long long decline. Hartford has a lot of problems that lack of regional cohesive policy has nothing to do with, and they need to be solved by the city.

I beg to differ with you about regional cooperation. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to replicate services on a town-by-town basis.

[jcrc]

I beg to differ with you about regional cooperation. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to replicate services on a town-by-town basis.

Please keep things in perspective. What worked for Charlotte may not work for Hartford. There is simply no cooky cutter, one model fits all, solution. Charlotte is geographically speaking a large city, Hartford is not and most likely never will be. You think West Hartford is going to integrate its services with Hartford because it makes fiscal sense for Hartford? What sense does it make for West Hartford? Unless Hartford can annex these suburbs and force them to share Hartford's burdens, it's not going to happen. Plus, some of Hartford's big problems cannot be solved by regional cooperation. I am not saying cooperation is a bad thing, I am saying the reality is that there is none, and won't likely to have any. Therefore Hartford has to work with cards that are dealt to it. So far, from the limited time I am in Hartford, I say Hartford is on the right track. Sure things can be a lot better but again let's keep things in perspective, a few years back I can roll a bowling ball down Main Street after 5, and I am not going to hit a thing. Now, there are evenings I can't find a place to park. Using virgo20's own criteria, real estate value in Hartford is going up or coming down?

[MadVlad]

Up, up, and away....

[TaylorG4444]

Never in my life have I seen such hostility towards someone for merely saying their opinion. Some of you are acting like boys fighting during recess....Arguing about which city is better or which city has the better one of something....grow up! Both Charlotte and Hartford/Boston/Providence have their strengths and weaknesses and while it is progress to discuss how to fix them....it is NOT when all people do is use them as leverage to boast their own city as superior. All cities have struggles and all cities can learn from one another about how to possibly fix them....people just have to be open-minded enough to look and listen.

[virgo20]

Please keep things in perspective. What worked for Charlotte may not work for Hartford. There is simply no cooky cutter, one model fits all, solution. Charlotte is geographically speaking a large city, Hartford is not and most likely never will be. You think West Hartford is going to integrate its services with Hartford because it makes fiscal sense for Hartford? What sense does it make for West Hartford? Unless Hartford can annex these suburbs and force them to share Hartford's burdens, it's not going to happen. Plus, some of Hartford's big problems cannot be solved by regional cooperation. I am not saying cooperation is a bad thing, I am saying the reality is that there is none, and won't likely to have any. Therefore Hartford has to work with cards that are dealt to it. So far, from the limited time I am in Hartford, I say Hartford is on the right track. Sure things can be a lot better but again let's keep things in perspective, a few years back I can roll a bowling ball down Main Street after 5, and I am not going to hit a thing. Now, there are evenings I can't find a place to park. Using virgo20's own criteria, real estate value in Hartford is going up or coming down?

The areas all around Hartford have all gone up in recent years. The city itself is still a relatively affordable place to live in compared with the areas that surround it. In Hartford, there really hasn't been much of an effect with alll the development downtown to the neighborhoods in terms of growth and real estate values. The overwhelming majority of the areas in the city are still undesirable places to live. Hartford can benefit from the building boom if it spills over into its neighborhoods. Providence has had a lot of spinoff development into its neighborhoods and therefore has succeeded where Hartford has failed in the past. I think Hartford has incredible potential to create some real vibrant areas along Franklin, Broad, and New Britain Avenues. They really need pioneers to get the projects moving. Only a few people with investment in the community can really spark change. Here in Providence,the Valley area is starting to come back after years of neglect. Large expanses of abandoned mill buildings have and are being renovated for housing, artist space, businesses, and retail. The development is catching the eye of top universities and creating more spinoff development.

If I lived or wanted to live in Hartford, I would buy NOW!!!!! I think the city will see more moderate gains in real estate compared to the ridiculous over-appreciation that we've had here. There are many people in Providence that simply can't afford to purchase now and are waiting as the market here is cooling. Hartford , on the other hand, needs more community-based housing programs and associations to attract people to live and invest there. I think with a little spinoff into one or a few of the areas within city borders, Hartford will take off...If that doesn't happen...or there is not a concerted effort to do so,Hartford will be back to square 1.

[MadVlad]

Actually, there has been some spin-off. Trinity College has been building up the Zion-to-Broad St area for a few years now, including a new city Ice Skating rink on Webster Street in the very near future. Flatbush Ave has a nice new shopping center with a Wal-Mart (that actually is a big deal, believe it or not), and right around the corner is the Crown Theatre with an IMAX. Albany Ave has some new U-Hartford stuff going on in that old car dealership, Tycoon can give you more info on developments in the North-End than I can. So, there is some stuff going on. Is it small? Absolutely. Is it a start? Sure.

[Germaine]

Please keep things in perspective. What worked for Charlotte may not work for Hartford. There is simply no cooky cutter, one model fits all, solution. Charlotte is geographically speaking a large city, Hartford is not and most likely never will be. You think West Hartford is going to integrate its services with Hartford because it makes fiscal sense for Hartford? What sense does it make for West Hartford? Unless Hartford can annex these suburbs and force them to share Hartford's burdens, it's not going to happen. Plus, some of Hartford's big problems cannot be solved by regional cooperation. I am not saying cooperation is a bad thing, I am saying the reality is that there is none, and won't likely to have any. Therefore Hartford has to work with cards that are dealt to it. So far, from the limited time I am in Hartford, I say Hartford is on the right track. Sure things can be a lot better but again let's keep things in perspective, a few years back I can roll a bowling ball down Main Street after 5, and I am not going to hit a thing. Now, there are evenings I can't find a place to park. Using virgo20's own criteria, real estate value in Hartford is going up or coming down?

Thanks for a very thoughtful response; I agree with you. It would be fantasy to imagine that Hartford would literally merge with its surrounding towns. But it doesn't have to merge to share resources. For example, Charlotte shares its school system with its surrounding towns CMS Schools; and, its utilities, inspections, and transportation planning.

Food for thought.

[Germaine]

The areas all around Hartford have all gone up in recent years. The city itself is still a relatively affordable place to live in compared with the areas that surround it. In Hartford, there really hasn't been much of an effect with alll the development downtown to the neighborhoods in terms of growth and real estate values. The overwhelming majority of the areas in the city are still undesirable places to live. Hartford can benefit from the building boom if it spills over into its neighborhoods. Providence has had a lot of spinoff development into its neighborhoods and therefore has succeeded where Hartford has failed in the past. I think Hartford has incredible potential to create some real vibrant areas along Franklin, Broad, and New Britain Avenues. They really need pioneers to get the projects moving. Only a few people with investment in the community can really spark change. Here in Providence,the Valley area is starting to come back after years of neglect. Large expanses of abandoned mill buildings have and are being renovated for housing, artist space, businesses, and retail. The development is catching the eye of top universities and creating more spinoff development.

If I lived or wanted to live in Hartford, I would buy NOW!!!!! I think the city will see more moderate gains in real estate compared to the ridiculous over-appreciation that we've had here. There are many people in Providence that simply can't afford to purchase now and are waiting as the market here is cooling. Hartford , on the other hand, needs more community-based housing programs and associations to attract people to live and invest there. I think with a little spinoff into one or a few of the areas within city borders, Hartford will take off...If that doesn't happen...or there is not a concerted effort to do so,Hartford will be back to square 1.

These are some excellent points. All kidding aside, it's well-known that having large gay communities will help rejuvenate a city. Do you folks think that Hartford can attract or has enough gay people to help the city?

[LItoCT]

Actually, there has been some spin-off. Trinity College has been building up the Zion-to-Broad St area for a few years now, including a new city Ice Skating rink on Webster Street in the very near future.

Don't count on us to help out the city in the near future, Trinity is broke, its unlikely even that the Hockey rink will be completed on schedule as I believe we still haven't secured enough funds for it.

[GHartford]

These are some excellent points. All kidding aside, it's well-known that having large gay communities will help rejuvenate a city. Do you folks think that Hartford can attract or has enough gay people to help the city?

There was an article in the Advocate recently about how the West End does not have the gay population it once did, due to gay couples now feeling more comfortable in the suburbs. But, a strong creative community, of which the gay community is almost always a part, would be a good thing. I think there are still enough enclaves to attract people including artists and the gay community. Hartford has a high concentration of art establishments including theaters (Theater Works, Hartford Stage, etc), museums (Real Artways, Atheneum) and music venues (Bushnell, Webster, Meadows). There is also a design community gathering in Parkville and a diverse, thriving downtown should help. So hopefully the answer to your question is that a rejuvinated Hartford will attract diverse groups of people, including the gay community.

[virgo20]

These are some excellent points. All kidding aside, it's well-known that having large gay communities will help rejuvenate a city. Do you folks think that Hartford can attract or has enough gay people to help the city?

[virgo20]

These are some excellent points. All kidding aside, it's well-known that having large gay communities will help rejuvenate a city. Do you folks think that Hartford can attract or has enough gay people to help the city?

There are a lot of gay people that are afraid of Hartford. When I lived there back in 99, you could go to Velvet or Bar 1 downtown and expect to have a good time. The clubs attracted people from all over N.E as even I made the drive occasionaly after I moved back to Providence. Now, the only thing left is Chez Est and the Polo Club to have a drink. Both are not in Downtown and located in somewhat sketchy areas. ( at least Chez Est is...once witnessed a stabbing there across the street) Hartford doesn't attract people from outside the region as much as it used to. There are more gay-friendly places in New Haven and Springfield .

. Gay people generally have more disposable income than their straight counterparts because they don't have children. One only needs to look at the South End in Boston to see how much gays have transformed the landscape. There are many gays in Hartford that don't have the resources and culture to go on with their life. They are forced into living life on the Dl because ultimately, the culture is still not accepted there on the whole. Many cities have embraced them( like mine) because they understand that they are a vital part of neighborhood reconstruction. An openly gay mayor certainly doesn't hurt.

With that said.. I do think that it is essential to Hartford's success or any city for that matter. Like I said in the beginning, Hartford is a small city that doesn't need a lot to turn it around. It needs a few more dedicated people to invest in the community and create a spinoff effect. ( whether they are gay or not) People will follow and people will come back, but you have to appeal to the whole audience.

[newlondonboy]

Other than the 530 units in the system; none of the rest is certain, and if they happen, they will take years. None of the park street gateway, unamed north of 84, front street Y, and capewell, are anywhere. Earliest likely completion date for any of these, if ever, is the Y in 2009.

[HartfordTycoon]

Other than the 530 units in the system; none of the rest is certain, and if they happen, they will take years. None of the park street gateway, unamed north of 84, front street Y, and capewell, are anywhere. Earliest likely completion date for any of these, if ever, is the Y in 2009.

I understand your skepticism but I don't think people are proposing projectst they don't have the means to develop. The city is green-lighting everything now and the public subsidies are no longer being offered. The reality is that the developers who are buying in Hartford now are going to make a fortune because the land so undervalued. The Y project in my mind is a sealed deal, Northland has proven their credibility in my eyes. All I'm saying to anyone one is wait and watch it happen. Things are changing in Hartford.

[newlondonboy]

Actually I did not mean to sound that pessimistic. My main point is that the delivery of the housing units will be spaced out, after the first wave. Because most of these developments take two years, from the day they break ground - and none of the ones that I referred to will break ground in 05; which means earliest possible delivery is 08 (assuming 06 groundbreaking). With regard to specific viability, I have not heard a developer's name for north of 84; so on that one I am skeptical. And I believe that the Y condo deal will undermine the viability of Front Street's housing component - turning that deal into retail only.

[SOCOM]

Because most of these developments take two years, from the day they break ground - and none of the ones that I referred to will break ground in 05; which means earliest possible delivery is 08 (assuming 06 groundbreaking). With regard to specific viability, I have not heard a developer's name for north of 84; so on that one I am skeptical. And I believe that the Y condo deal will undermine the viability of Front Street's housing component - turning that deal into retail only.

^Front street will most likely break ground within the next year, if not sooner. The Y site is poised to break ground well after Front Street is underway.