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The change on Pine and Church in that area has been dramatic to me. It went from empty lots and duplexes to multi-story and GF retail fast. The problem is, the GF Retail does not seem to be succeeding and there does not seem to be non-organic traffic frequenting the area other than the Publix. Will more residents make a sustainable neighborhood with more viable business opportunities? Perhaps, but the economics of trying to make this happen does not seem to be working. It seems like "the rent is too damn high" in these manufactured neighborhoods for local businesses to thrive and maybe it will hamper creating a real neighborhood in South Eola for quite some time as the GF remains vacant and residents continue to travel elsewhere for regular needs.   They need more Draw to make it work, especially at the prices they are forcing due to development cost. 

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Begs the question if the mixed-use trend of groundfloor retail is even appropriate in some of these newer developments - seems a bit like a rubber stamp approach to city building. 

I recall when Camden Court converted their retail spaces on Orange into apartments due to lack of occupancy. 

Edited by prahaboheme
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The requirements are hampering the real free-market forces, IMHO. I think Mixed-use could work if there was more of a balance in the mix, specifically more commercial/office space rather than the currently seen "bunch of overpriced rent apartments with some hipster beer/taco/burger joints on the bottom" approach. That is proven to be unsuccessful over time, and yet, the requirements exist and everybody thinks it will work in the future. . . I would like to see more robust requirements of instead of just allocating space, maybe having a retail approach with vetted tenants and pro-forma for ongoing business prospects with perhaps larger spaces for national retailers. They just build the space thinking anybody can do this and succeed and end up with a lot of dreamers moving in (or nobody moving in) that are doomed to fail eventually. 

It is quite sad and unproductive as I see it, and I wish it could change, for the benefit of our city/neighborhoods and those that are trying to create viable businesses, but may not have the foresight to see their inevitable failure.  

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I think retail works best in clusters. Just because there's a space for it on the ground floor of a building does not ensure enough foot traffic to make it succeed. I can't imagine any particular reason to go looking for retail in a parking garage on W. Washington St. or, for that matter, at the Vue along the racetrack that is Rosalind Ave.

Had Buddy gotten more serious about active retail planning with a competent DDB staff, they could have put retail nodes in the places they might have been successful together instead of the  willy-nilly approach we got.

There's a reason retail works better in downtown WP and WG  than in Orlando and that's because people know where to find it.

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That and the economics. They are positioning these spaces to fail, just because of the development costs and the exorbitant variable costs. 

Retail has very thin margins and thrives on low cost areas with clustering of traffic. This is not a new or arcane concept, and it surprises me that our code creators and MPB do not know or care to ignore this. 

BTW. East side of South Eola is RIPE for a  CVS to compete with the DT Walgreens!

Edited by dcluley98
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So, we're getting a new Irish pub at 2 S. Orange where Banco Popular used to be. I'm not ready to give up my loyalty to the Harp & Celt but it would be interesting to spend some time in the old Dickson and Ives building. The last time I was in there, I was wearing my Buster Browns and trying to navigate the crowds with my mom at the store's going out of business sale about 1963. 

https://bungalower.com/2018/11/19/new-irish-pub-opening-in-downtown-orlando/

Feom Bungalower

Edited by spenser1058
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On 11/15/2018 at 10:27 PM, dcluley98 said:

The change on Pine and Church in that area has been dramatic to me. It went from empty lots and duplexes to multi-story and GF retail fast. The problem is, the GF Retail does not seem to be succeeding and there does not seem to be non-organic traffic frequenting the area other than the Publix. Will more residents make a sustainable neighborhood with more viable business opportunities? Perhaps, but the economics of trying to make this happen does not seem to be working. It seems like "the rent is too damn high" in these manufactured neighborhoods for local businesses to thrive and maybe it will hamper creating a real neighborhood in South Eola for quite some time as the GF remains vacant and residents continue to travel elsewhere for regular needs.   They need more Draw to make it work, especially at the prices they are forcing due to development cost. 

I'm not on the ground every day,  but it seems like the small-footprint live/work spaces at 420 are working a lot better than the larger restaurant spaces at Sanctuary/TPC/101 S. Eola, likely do to rental costs. If this is the case, it seems like the thing to do would be to continue to make available more, smaller spaces where small locals can open with significantly less capital (or more wiggle room as they get going.) This turns away from traditional retail with rows and rows and rows of products, but if the product/service/experience available is desirable within the neighborhood, there is a better chance of them doing well, and if a store fails, it leaves a small, easily fillable hole as opposed to leaving vacant a large stretch of storefont. 

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19 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

Has the food truck park in hourglass opened? If not, any idea when?

I drove by today and it looked like it hasn't been touched. The one in the Milk District opened last weekend. 

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On 11/15/2018 at 10:27 PM, dcluley98 said:

The change on Pine and Church in that area has been dramatic to me. It went from empty lots and duplexes to multi-story and GF retail fast. The problem is, the GF Retail does not seem to be succeeding and there does not seem to be non-organic traffic frequenting the area other than the Publix.

The DDB & Orlando Main Street are ignoring that what they're doing isn't working.  Counter to their efforts to appropriate South Eola for Thornton Park (or turn SE into TPWest?) time itself will establish South Eola as the complete 'City Living' package it is, the only downtown neighborhood with a Live Work Play lifestyle that without a doubt blows the idea of being Thornton Park as a selling point out of the water.  South Eola has a Publix, Lake Eola (!!) and the only dog park downtown in Constitution Green.  Building a brand/identity for South Eola around these things alone would 100% draw more people and in the long term be better for business than any manufactured counterfeit claim.

Is building a brand from the ground up more work than the TPD telling businesses to call themselves "Blank of Thornton Park" ?? Sure, but for as successful as the TPD is in promoting itself, I can count 10 businesses that have closed here in the last 3yrs. If the city, DDB, Main Street, etc. and SE neighborhood association could actually work together to tap in to the identity of South Eola, businesses could flourish (without a forced connection to something they do not identify with) that authenticity would lead the way for something to become the fabric of our community and live here forever .. like a Dexters, or Maxines.   The Osceola corner GF retail in 420 that's never been occupied (or any of the impending 520 space) could finally be what it takes to draw people in/throughout the neighborhood - but then things like naming 420 "Camden TP" adds that drag on progress, the "that's our story and we're sticking to it" rubber stamp.  Le sigh..

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Somewhat related - went to lunch at Lions Den today.   Everyone’s food looked stellar and I had their All American Burger.   Mix of angus and brisket.  Best burger I’ve had.   Bar none.

Anyway, place was a ghost town and I would be shocked if they are open a year from now.

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53 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

went to lunch at Lions Den today

Church Street does not support lunch very well. Rusty Spoon gets the business meeting crowd, but everyone else heads to various places along Orange. I swear a Panera and/ or Chick Fil A would kill down there. I've not been in Lions Den, but friends have mentioned the austere décor as an issue... not sure exactly what they meant, but it didn't sound appealing. Isn't this actually owned by the O-City team?

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To be clear, we're talking about Lions Pride, right?  It's become the OSU bar, so I'm there most Saturdays.  I love the location, I love the space, I love the concept, and all the food I've had there has been very good.  But I never get food there.  Even when I lived at 55W, I only ate there once.  They have almost 0 snackable foods besides cheese curds (which goes against the entire concept of a sports bar), and most of their dishes are on the higher end of the price range.  The menu just doesn't match the restaurant.

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13 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

To be clear, we're talking about Lions Pride, right?  It's become the OSU bar, so I'm there most Saturdays.  I love the location, I love the space, I love the concept, and all the food I've had there has been very good.  But I never get food there.  Even when I lived at 55W, I only ate there once.  They have almost 0 snackable foods besides cheese curds (which goes against the entire concept of a sports bar), and most of their dishes are on the higher end of the price range.  The menu just doesn't match the restaurant.

The food is good - but correct - expensive like you noted. The service has been horrible every time I've gone. That's unfortunately pretty standard for sports bars though. 

I do not believe the team actually owns the restaurant - maybe a small stake or partnership agreement. 

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29 minutes ago, bqknight said:

maybe a small stake or partnership agreement.

you are correct. from their site...

"The Lion’s Pride Soccer Pub and Grill opened in May 2017. Owner Gustavo Fonseca created a meant to be a partnership with Orlando City Soccer Club and Orlando Pride becoming the official restaurant for the organization."

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OW had a blurb that Robert Treviño (chef owner of El Buda) is opening up a ceviche place, theoretically before the end of the year. 

Treviño has linked with the team at Don Julio Mexican Kitchen on South Chickasaw Trail, and will soon open a ceviche bar in the space next door, appropriately called Ceviche Bar by Don Julio. 

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/11/30/iron-chef-contestant-roberto-trevino-heading-up-new-ceviche-bar-in-orlando?utm_source=widget&utm_medium=articleblog&utm_campaign=endofarticle&utm_content=MorebyThisAuthor

BTW The Courtesy, downtown, is doing "Miracle on Orange" again this year.  They re-do their menu and decor for Christmas with special drinkware, etc. It's pretty fun and their cocktails are always good. 

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41 minutes ago, mdeancherry said:

BTW The Courtesy, downtown, is doing "Miracle on Orange" again this year.  They re-do their menu and decor for Christmas with special drinkware, etc. It's pretty fun and their cocktails are always good.  

Again, the miracle here is a third party vendor that does this theme and menu, not them technically.

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I tried The Ramen at Crescent Central Station yesterday for lunch. I’m by no means a ramen connoisseur, but I thought it was really good. The menu has a small but solid assortment of options and, notably, both the ramen and non-ramen options were good.

The owners didn’t do much to the interior from the Philly Connection days. There wasn’t a line at 1:45, but that’s not unusual in that area. They were doing brisk takeaway business. I think their biggest challenge will be the price point. If you do both a bowl of ramen and an app, the final bill can easily creep up toward $20.

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17 hours ago, jgardnerucf said:

Again, the miracle here is a third party vendor that does this theme and menu, not them technically.

"Participating in" might have been a clearer word choice on my part than "doing" but I understand that it's a national thing with  pre-determined elements (menu, special glassware, etc.).  However, it's the same bartenders in the same space making seasonal drinks (as they always do).   They still have free Pig Floyd's on Sundays; they still have happy hour, etc.  

 I think "They do Miracle" is accurate for a given definition of "do". 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:31 PM, mdeancherry said:

OW had a blurb that Robert Treviño (chef owner of El Buda) is opening up a ceviche place, theoretically before the end of the year. 

Treviño has linked with the team at Don Julio Mexican Kitchen on South Chickasaw Trail, and will soon open a ceviche bar in the space next door, appropriately called Ceviche Bar by Don Julio. 

I hope you can actually tell what you're ordering! 

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Any long time Orlando folks remember a Mexican place on 436 in the vicinity of Altamonte back in the late 80s/early 90s.  It was on the South side of the street somewhere near Peaches Records & Tapes.  White/red building on the smallish side.  Outbuilding in the parking lot of a shopping plaza.

Random and vague.  I came down 3 summers in a row in that time to stay with family while school was out and spent tons of time @ Peaches.  I randomly remembered that place I ate at so many of those days.  The recent taco discussion must have spawned this.

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11 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Any long time Orlando folks remember a Mexican place on 436 in the vicinity of Altamonte back in the late 80s/early 90s.  It was on the South side of the street somewhere near Peaches Records & Tapes.  White/red building on the smallish side.  Outbuilding in the parking lot of a shopping plaza.

Random and vague.  I came down 3 summers in a row in that time to stay with family while school was out and spent tons of time @ Peaches.  I randomly remembered that place I ate at so many of those days.  The recent taco discussion must have spawned this.

I've been trying to figure this one out all day. I knew that area pretty well at the time. There were several Mex places on the other side of I-4, but along 436- opposite the mall property all the way to 17-92 I do not recall a Mex restaurant. Some of the places in that area that are now gone that I do remember… Splash, the bar with the pool overlooking I-4. Fuddruckers. CJs (calico jacks). Bombay Bicycle Club. China Coast- Darden's attempt at Asian food. Barnie's BBQ was a little further south, but I was in there often. Altamonte was the "hot spot" place to be in the mid 80's...

Sorry I can't answer your question, but thank you for allowing me to reflect on some fond times.

Edited by AmIReal
correction

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