North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[15895]

I'd love rail to Wilmington from CLT

[tozmervo]

I'd love rail to Wilmington Wrightsville Beach from CLT

 

FTFY 

[seth0423]

Here are my thoughts on rail transit in NC:

 

We need:

Charlotte -> Raleigh (I find that some timetable work would lead to a ridership spike)

Raleigh -> Wrightsville (Maybe to link up with Carolinian)

Wrightsville -> Charlotte

Charlotte -> Asheville via Salisbury

 

These are already planned, but with the purchase of some locomotives, and some contracts, I believe we can get these quickly. CSXT has supported passenger rail on their network, as seen with the S-Line project with SEHSR. Of course we would need track improvements from Charlotte to Wilmington, and that could benefit their freight service too. I would love to take a train to the beach from Charlotte instead of that boring drive every single time. It's a win-win for freight and the customer.

Edited February 21, 2015 by seth0423

[15895]

Here are my thoughts on rail transit in NC:

We need:

Charlotte -> Raleigh (I find that some timetable work would lead to a ridership spike)

Raleigh -> Wrightsville (Maybe to link up with Carolinian)

Wrightsville -> Charlotte

Charlotte -> Asheville via Salisbury

These are already planned, but with the purchase of some locomotives, and some contracts, I believe we can get these quickly. CSXT has supported passenger rail on their network, as seen with the S-Line project with SEHSR. Of course we would need track improvements from Charlotte to Wilmington, and that could benefit their freight service too. I would love to take a train to the beach from Charlotte instead of that boring drive every single time. It's a win-win for freight and the customer.

That would be awesome (if reasonable prices)

[kermit]

You can provide public comments on the new NCDOT Comprehensive Rail plan here: http://www.ncbytrain.org/projects/rail-plan.html

 

public commenting is open until March 21st.

[seth0423]

I like how things are looking, except the fact that SEH(igher)SR isn't going to be implemented until 2035 at least. Plus no signs of the Charlotte-Wilmington Cooridor. I think the state needs to make expanding passenger service a priority. I mean, who wouldn't want to take a train to Asheville, ski, and then come home.

Edited February 22, 2015 by seth0423

[kermit]

^ CLT-Wilmington is not going to happen in our lifetimes -- it is single track the whole way, very little is in between and CSX is CSX. What could happen is the state could wisely invest in Wilmington-Raleigh (which they are currently working on using the dividend payments from the NCRR) and get speeds there up to 90mph. Once they get 90mph on all the track from Wilmington to Raleigh to Charlotte that route would be a faster trip for Charlotte folks to Wilmington than driving. Keep in mind that the Wilmington terminus is going to be north of the convention center -- there is no discussion (or realistic possibility) of getting the inter-city train closer to Wrightsville. Having said that, resurrecting the streetcar line down Wrightsville ave to the beach (plus a spur to campus)  seems a no brainer

 

Asheville sounds good, but due to the loops that go up the Blue Ridge at Old Fort the route will never be time competitive with driving. Combined with poor station locations in Aville (Biltmore Village) and lousy last mile transit (Asheville is a long way from any skiing) I think money would be much better spent on our core intercity trunk service (CLT-GSO-RGH) plus the extension to Wilmington. A passenger route up the mountain could potentially be tunneled for multiple-billions, but that money would be much better spent on SEHSR.

Edited February 22, 2015 by kermit

[mallguy]

 I mean, who wouldn't want to take a train to Asheville, ski, and then come home.

There are plenty of other passenger service providers who could run an Asheville train.  Iowa Pacific, a private railroad, runs multiple private passenger trains around the US.  If a ski train could be profitable, Iowa Pacific or someone else could run it; the Rio Grande Railroad, for example, and its successors ran a Colorado ski train until recently.

 

I don't see a Charlotte-Asheville train as ever time-competitive with driving, but maybe someone could make it work.

 

It's time for rail advocates to think outside the box and not just depend on government to provide these types of things.

Edited February 23, 2015 by mallguy

[seth0423]

There are plenty of other passenger service providers who could run an Asheville train.  Iowa Pacific, a private railroad, runs multiple private passenger trains around the US.  If a ski train could be profitable, Iowa Pacific or someone else could run it; the Rio Grande Railroad, for example, and its successors ran a Colorado ski train until recently.

I didn't mean for it to be strictly a ski train, it could also be a very scenic ride. It would be something like the coast starlight, except on a smaller scale.

[mallguy]

I didn't mean for it to be strictly a ski train, it could also be a very scenic ride. It would be something like the coast starlight, except on a smaller scale.

Sure, and my point is still valid either way: Iowa Pacific or another private operator could run the train. 

 

I still don't see a Charlotte-Asheville train (regardless of routing) to be viable.  The Southern Railway ran two trains until the late '70s; one was a daily one and one was a scenic/tourist one.  Both were not profitable at all and didn't have a lot of ridership.

Edited February 23, 2015 by mallguy

[seth0423]

^ CLT-Wilmington is not going to happen in our lifetimes -- it is single track the whole way, very little is in between and CSX is CSX. What could happen is the state could wisely invest in Wilmington-Raleigh (which they are currently working on using the dividend payments from the NCRR) and get speeds there up to 90mph. Once they get 90mph on all the track from Wilmington to Raleigh to Charlotte that route would be a faster trip for Charlotte folks to Wilmington than driving. Keep in mind that the Wilmington terminus is going to be north of the convention center -- there is no discussion (or realistic possibility) of getting the inter-city train closer to Wrightsville. Having said that, resurrecting the streetcar line down Wrightsville ave to the beach (plus a spur to campus)  seems a no brainer

 

Asheville sounds good, but due to the loops that go up the Blue Ridge at Old Fort the route will never be time competitive with driving. Combined with poor station locations in Aville (Biltmore Village) and lousy last mile transit (Asheville is a long way from any skiing) I think money would be much better spent on our core intercity trunk service (CLT-GSO-RGH) plus the extension to Wilmington. A passenger route up the mountain could potentially be tunneled for multiple-billions, but that money would be much better spent on SEHSR.

 

Agreed on all points. 90 MPH direct would be about 3.5 hours, via Raleigh. The State government has put the Charlotte-Salisbury-Asheville line on the map at least.

 

[kermit]

New baggage cars have been deployed on eastern Amtrak routes replacing the 50+ year old heritage baggage gear. Amtrak has previously stated that the new cars will accommodate unboxed bikes (just like the Piedmont trains do already). When this happens (there have been no recent announcements) it will make day trips from Charlotte with a bike _much_ easier. 

[seth0423]

Does anyone know when we are supposed to get our fourth Piedmont, and what times it is going to run? I've seen 2016-17 from the DOT's report, but I'm not so sure.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Wi-Fi service on the Piedmont begins May 25th.

[kdub1]

Based on the plan, connecting bus service between Charlotte and Columbia is more of a priority to NCDOT than anything related to Asheville service, be it the long-stalled rail project or the planned Amtrak feasibility study to conduct Thruway service between Salisbury and Asheville.

[kermit]

Unboxed bikes are now permitted on the Carolinian between Charlotte and Raleigh (and intermediate stops) only. The policy appears to be the same as the bike policy on the Piedmont trains (its free but you need a reservation and a checked baggage tag). This is great news for folks in Charlotte, since day trips with bikes were impossible.

http://www.amtrak.com/bikes-on-the-carolinian-train

in theory this should presage unboxed bikes on the whole Amtrak system thanks to the new baggae cars that were recently delivered. However there have been some teething problems with the new bike racks so that process appears to be on hold.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

The Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Raleigh to Richmond portion of the Southeast Corridor has been signed by the FRA, the State of North Carolina, and the Commonwealth of Virginia. Note that it is no longer being referred to as the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, just the Southeast Corridor. They're also mentioning "potential private partners."

NCDOT News Release

News & Observer Article

Highlights from the recently approved North Carolina Comprehensive State Rail Plan as outlined in this News & Observer article:

• Proposed Asheville and Wilmington service between 2020 and 2035, with Thruway Bus Service beginning in 2016 and 2018, respectively.
• Fourth Piedmont service in 2017 or 2018, fifth in 2019 (double-tracking/siding projects are prerequisites and won't be completed until 2017).
• New stations planned or proposed in Harrisburg, Hillsborough, and Lexington.
• Raleigh Union station completion in 2017. Charlotte Gateway Station after 2020.
• Incremental approach to implementing the Southeast Corridor. I.e., acquire and restore the S-Line, keep grade crossings and run at slower speeds because $4 billion ain't gonna happen.

Edited September 18, 2015 by cowboy_wilhelm

[DEnd]

The Georgia DOT has released its Draft Alternatives Development Report for the SEHSR http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Rail/Documents/Atl-Char/AtltoCharPRCIPAlternativesDevelopmentReport.pdf

They have basically finalized three potential routes, The Crescent which follows the same route as current Amtrak trains; The I-85 which follows I-85 sort of; and the Greenfield which is the southern route through Gaston county.  Of those routes the Greenfield scored the best partly due to much higher speeds (220mph vs 125mph and 110mph).  The only real downsides are a high cost (8.5 billion in 2012 dollars) and slightly fewer jobs close to stops.  The I-85 corridor scores next best with 125mph speeds.  It has a total cost of 15 billion.  The Crescent has a total cost of 2.3 billion, but it has much lower speeds (110mph) and would have the fewest riders.  

Due to total costs I think the I-85 corridor is out, unless they can dramatically reduce its cost. That basically leaves an economic argument between the Crescent route and the Greenfield Route. I think the Greenfield Route wins on cost per projected yearly rider ($5,400), vs the Crescent ($6,900).  On total cost of course the Crescent wins.

Edited October 29, 2015 by DEnd

[Third Strike]

The Georgia DOT has released its Draft Alternatives Development Report for the SEHSR http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Rail/Documents/Atl-Char/AtltoCharPRCIPAlternativesDevelopmentReport.pdf

They have basically finalized three potential routes, The Crescent which follows the same route as current Amtrak trains; The I-85 which follows I-85 sort of; and the Greenfield which is the southern route through Gaston county.  Of those routes the Greenfield scored the best partly due to much higher speeds (220mph vs 125mph and 110mph).  The only real downsides are a high cost (8.5 billion in 2012 dollars) and slightly fewer jobs close to stops.  The I-85 corridor scores next best with 125mph speeds.  It has a total cost of 15 billion.  The Crescent has a total cost of 2.3 billion, but it has much lower speeds (110mph) and would have the fewest riders.  

Due to total costs I think the I-85 corridor is out, unless they can dramatically reduce its cost. That basically leaves an economic argument between the Crescent route and the Greenfield Route. I think the Greenfield Route wins on cost per projected yearly rider ($5,400), vs the Crescent ($6,900).  On total cost of course the Crescent wins.

In the long run, I think the Greenfield Route is the best option. It is more costly, but it will give the corridor high speed that is competitive with some European and Asian countries. The current Crescent Route can still be used for intercity lines for cities along the I-85 corridor, but the Greenfield Route will become a direct line for Charlotte and Atlanta.

[DEnd]

In the long run, I think the Greenfield Route is the best option. It is more costly, but it will give the corridor high speed that is competitive with some European and Asian countries. The current Crescent Route can still be used for intercity lines for cities along the I-85 corridor, but the Greenfield Route will become a direct line for Charlotte and Atlanta.

I hate to admit it but I agree with you.  I was really hoping for the crescent route, as that would allow for the possibility of commuter rail to Kings Mountain which would bring some growth to a stagnant Cleveland County.  However the regional need for a profitable route, out-weights the local need for commuter rail. 

[kermit]

here is a cab-view video of the NCRR from Raleigh to Charlotte which is captioned to show and describe the individual elements of the Piedmont Improvement Project. While they make the full trip they compress it to the point where the video is only 4.5 minutes long (the equivalent of 3,777 mph service!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rODlGDz1GJ0

(hat tip to jstolberg at railroad.net)

[kermit]

Starting to get very concerned that construction on the Charlotte service yard has not yet begun. Anyone know of any news on this project? Doesn't it have a 2017 construction deadline due to the federal funding?

On a brighter note, the second track is now being laid along Old Concord rd in Charlotte (just north of Junker).

Edited April 13, 2016 by kermit

[kermit]

NS announced it was reducing operations in its Knoxville yard today (coal traffic is down 30% system wide). This will likely mean fewer trains in Asheville and through the Old Fort loops to Salisbury and some knock on traffic reductions on the NCRR.

None of this is directly related to pax rail in NC but it does illustrate the magnitude of the freight traffic dropoff (both coal and oil). When this decline is combined with the shareholder pressure brought on by the CP purchase offer (which has been reascended)  I think we may see NS develop a new and more welcoming attitude towards pax rail as long as it brings in some revenue. In short I think the door may be opening (a little) for commuter rail on the O Line to Charlotte and (if its asked for) commuter rail in the Triangle. 

[kermit]

It appears that CSX has decided to move its new intermodal hub just across the state line in Dillion SC. IMO Johnston County's negative reaction to CSX was a serious blow to the NC economy.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/csx_transportation/news/SC-Ports-Authority-CSX-discuss-need-for-second-inland-port-facility--48010?email=wwgraves@bellsouth.net&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews04/22/2016

 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

I have a feeling that sooner or later Norfolk Southern is going to sell the S-Line (Knoxville to Salisbury) to a short line operator like they did their branch lines out of Asheville two years ago. Who knows what that will mean for future passenger rail service.