North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[sax184]

^That doesn't even begin to address what I had to say about fuel consumption.

You said: "My guess is that knowing they are going to have to stop in such a short a span they don't try to get the train to top speed."

NCDOT says: "The upgraded track allowed train speeds to increase from 60 mph to 79 mph"

This is the top speed for passenger trains on Class IV track, which is the class of track between Raleigh and Cary. I posted to clear this up.

As for fuel consumption, orulz is right. Another thing to consider is that getting all that metal up to 60 mph takes a good amount of effort, but getting it to 79 takes much less marginal effort.

[orulz]

^Well actually the feds reduced the nationwide speed limit to 55mph in the 1970s to 55mph for close to 2 decades in order to save fuel consumed by vehicles. I am going to guess that fuel management is a concern to the operating costs of trains.

Well, that was a matter of speed limit, not individual people / users deciding to slow down to save fuel. Again, the analogy between a train on the tracks and a car on the highway is not a very close one, but to carry it even further, in this case the speed limit is 79mph so I think they'll probably get the trains up to that speed.

Perhaps if there were a short stretch of 1/2 mile between two zones with lower speed limits, they wouldn't try to accellerate, as that really would just burn fuel and brakes. However, when you can keep rolling along at 79mph for 6 miles, seems to me that it would be worth it to do so.

[ChiefJoJo]

^The reason for not doing it of course is that such acceleration is extremely hard on fuel consumption and the stops hard on the braking system which is also a costly consumable if over used. My guess is that knowing they are going to have to stop in such a short a span they don't try to get the train to top speed.

Well actually the feds reduced the nationwide speed limit to 55mph in the 1970s to 55mph for close to 2 decades in order to save fuel consumed by vehicles. I am going to guess that fuel management is a concern to the operating costs of trains.

The difference in fuel consumption between tens of millions of vehicles traveling our nations highways (based on a law that no long exists, mind you) and a few trains increasing their top speed for a few miles to save time is astronomical, probably in the billions of gallons. The whole point of making improvements to the rail corridor is to get people off the highways by making rail more competitive. Why spend the money to increase the safe speed limit if you don't utilize the capacity? so yes, the amtrak trains might use a bit more fuel, but the net effect of improving rail service makes it worthwhile.

If reducing overall fossil fuel consumption, carbon release, and simply providing basic multimodal travel options to NC citizens are top concerns (they should be), then we ought to be spending many millions more on increasing efficiency and reducing travel time in the Piedmont crescent corridor. Not only that, but we should make it a top priority to connect Asheville to Salisbury and Wilmington to Raleigh with passenger rail service... not to mention high-speed rail from Charlotte to DC.

[vitaviatic]

Metrolink actually has 90-mph track between Santa Ana and Irvine. From my hogheading days I can tell you that indeed the "extra acceleration" needed to speed up a passenger consist, e.g., A Genesis loco w/ 4 Bomb cars, is quite negligible. Once you've gotten that mass up to around 60, small increments of throttle are more than sufficient to reach a 90-mph track speed. That is, of course, assuming a level grade, which the track segment in question here mostly is.

The problem at those speeds is actually stopping the thing. Dynamic braking helps, but it is awfully hard on the brake shoes throughout the consist. If you go into emergency with that consist going that speed, it'll take you about a mile and some to come to a complete stop. You can't imagine the angst of seeing a gasoline tanker straddled across one of your crossings when you're going that speed, and just hoping that the traffic signals are actually working to clear off the crossing. I see that as the main problem between say, Raleigh and Cary. I would highly recommend upgraded xing gates and perhaps even barricades, a la Japan, to protect xings such as Beryl Road, and prevent making them a deathtrap -- in the case that NCRR does decide to up the paxtrain speedboard limit to 79.

Multi-main signalling is great, and makes a big difference. There is also a huge difference in installing #20 turnouts in that, aside from the speeds, they are simply much more comfortable to go through with much less side-to-side head jerking, even at the higher speeds. I think the volume processing capacity is well-served by these improvements, as well as passenger (and crew) comfort, even if the time improvement between Raleigh and Cary is only a matter of seconds, or maybe a minute.

But to me it is a terrific sign that NCRR is doing what it can to accomodate passenger service, and evidently is planning on much more frequent service.

[orulz]

The Southeast High Speed Rail has just posted the alternative alignments for the corridor between Raleigh and Richmond. Only a few significant realignments in North Carolina, but some pretty significantly different alternatives through Petersburg, some of which serve downtown and others which don't.

There are also some pretty massive realignments being considered in the curviest section of the S-line in rural southern Virginia.

At first glance, it seems like there are a lot more realignments under consideration than were shown in the previous report on the subject which indicates that they might actually planning on building the line with a prevailing speed of 110mph.

[sax184]

The Southeast High Speed Rail has just posted the alternative alignments for the corridor between Raleigh and Richmond. Only a few significant realignments in North Carolina, but some pretty significantly different alternatives through Petersburg, some of which serve downtown and others which don't.

There are also some pretty massive realignments being considered in the curviest section of the S-line in rural southern Virginia.

At first glance, it seems like there are a lot more realignments under consideration than were shown in the previous report on the subject which indicates that they might actually planning on building the line with a prevailing speed of 110mph.

Wow- what a quality post. Great links. The last comment I heard from a SEHSR person on the matter was that since the question of using tilting trains is very much up in the air from the FRA perspective, the SEHSR engineering team was going to try to design the line in a way that maximized speeds for trains that were NOT allowed to tilt. This is where those straight, straight, blue lines near the VA border would be most compelling. Of course, if you design the line this way and then you do get to use tilting equipment, your bonus would be higher speeds through some of the curves, minimizing the amount the train needs to slow to go through certain gradients.

[orulz]

Interesting that the FRA is reluctant to allow tilting equipment altogether. What an overbearing, inflexible organization. I would think that if SEHSR could get tilting equipment that otherwise mets FRA regulations, all they would have to do is build the line with concrete ties (to withstand greater lateral forces in the turns) and increase the separation between tracks in segments of double track.

I guess the problem is that no FRA-compliant tilting equipment exists other than the hulking, HEAVY Acela. That thing would be SLOW if it were pulled by a diesel engine. Whereas, with conventional equipment, even Amfleets are approved for 125mph.

I'd hate to see our new high-speed trainsets wind up being just oring old Amfleets, but then again those are some very well-built train cars. 30 years after they first entered service (and one major overhaul later), they're in remarkable shape.

[sax184]

Interesting that the FRA is reluctant to allow tilting equipment altogether. What an overbearing, inflexible organization. I would think that if SEHSR could get tilting equipment that otherwise mets FRA regulations, all they would have to do is build the line with concrete ties (to withstand greater lateral forces in the turns) and increase the separation between tracks in segments of double track.

I guess the problem is that no FRA-compliant tilting equipment exists other than the hulking, HEAVY Acela. That thing would be SLOW if it were pulled by a diesel engine. Whereas, with conventional equipment, even Amfleets are approved for 125mph.

I'd hate to see our new high-speed trainsets wind up being just oring old Amfleets, but then again those are some very well-built train cars. 30 years after they first entered service (and one major overhaul later), they're in remarkable shape.

Well, there's always the waiver process, which I believe is what the Cascades service in the Pacific NW did to get the Talgos running. Seeing as the F59-PHI is a very likely engine to pull any SEHSR service, maybe their operation is a model for getting the tilting equipment deployed in terms of the FRA rules. (the F59-PHI pulls the Talgo, I think)

[orulz]

I thought I heard that the F59-PHI is no longer in production? It's also rather huge. Looks great pulling Superliners and the Suplerliner redux "California Car" on the Capital Corridor, but it looks funny pulling anything else.

I'd rather SEHSR went with some european-style coordinated trainset. Yes, I recognize that looking cool is of tertiary importance, but still. Talgo actually makes a trainset that uses basically the same cars as Cascades, with matching engines and all. However, all the Talgo stuff is low-platform equipment, which would prevent no-transfer service to the NEC.

The ideal equipment would be high-platform cars coupled to dual-mode locomotives, so we can have high-speed Charlotte-New York or even Charlotte-Boston service, without the 20 minute delay in Washington while they switch locomotives. This would also make electrifying WAS-RVM possible, as the need to switch locomotives at Richmond Main Street would be eliminated. New ADA regulations require that all new intercity and commuter stations have level boarding, so high level equipment would mean high platforms in Raleigh, and we would therefore retain compatibility with Amfleets. Sure gauntlet tracks are expensive, but it's worth it for the sake of convenience and interoperability.

[ChiefJoJo]

I talked with a representative from the NCDOT Rail Division about the SEHSR project and found out the following:

• Richmond to Petersburg will have new exclusive use track for passenger rail, designed for 90mph
  
• The Petersburg station will likely be relocated with SEHSR due to a less than desireable/accessible location
  
• Petersburg to Raleigh will operate 4 trains per day (2 express), max speed of 110 mph, line construction will be single track with 5-miles passing sidings every 10 miles (for full speed operation)
  
• Raleigh to Charlotte will operate 8 trains per day (4 express) up to 90mph; target travel time of 2 hours; target market of 2% of total corridor travel; staff feels 2% market share goal is beatable
  
• NCDOT Rail is managing all preconstruction work for SEHSR after VDOT backed out (VDOT shares cost)
  
• Preliminary design complete from Petersburg to Youngsville: 110 bridges--no new at-grade crossings.
  
• SEHSR touted as having best business case in the US due to existing market demands, future SE growth/highway congestion, and connection to heavily travelled NE corridor
  
• EIS complete 2010; construction could begin 2012--pending funds; Charlotte to Richmond operational by 2015
  
• Bill in Congress that would appropriate 70/30 fed/state share for project, paid for by $933M in recurring tax-credit bonds over three years ($2.8B total); states must match 30%; would pay for the entire project cost; also $1.5B in SAFETEA-LU Rail grant money available, but must compete with other projects
  
• Staff is generally optimistic that funding will come, and feel that their early planning will pay off
  

Other rail items of note:

• The Carolinian actually recovers 100%+ of operating costs at farebox! (due to lousy/cheap Amtrak-leased trainset and despite only 70% on-time reliability); shows very strong market exists
  
• NC almost purchased a Talgo trainset for the Piedmont line; WA just approved the money slightly quicker and have subsequently enjoyed a 25% increase on Cascade line as a result
  

Also worthy of interest is the 2050 Rail Vision for the US, prepared by the National Surface Transportation Policy and Revenue Study Commission Passenger Rail Working Group (PRWG). We are lucky to have had NCDOT Rail Director Pat Simmons on the board.

In NC, they recommend building:

• SEHSR from Charlotte to DC by 2015
  
• Asheville to Salisbury & Wilmington to Raleigh by 2030
  
• SEHSR southern NC route (110mph+ on ACWR and CSX) from Charlotte to Raleigh; Wilmington to Charlotte; Raleigh to Hamlet; Raleigh to Greenville & Raleigh to Morehead City by 2050
  

Anyway, the public pays so much attention to highways, it's really good to know that behind the scenes we have a great state staff pushing a forward-reaching rail agenda. We can only hope all this gets done!

[orulz]

I talked with a representative from the NCDOT Rail Division about the SEHSR project and found out the following:

• The Carolinian actually recovers 100%+ of operating costs at farebox! (due to lousy/cheap Amtrak-leased trainset and despite only 70% on-time reliability); shows very strong market exists
  
• NC almost purchased a Talgo trainset for the Piedmont line; WA just approved the money slightly quicker and have subsequently enjoyed a 25% increase on Cascade line as a result
  

RE the Carolinian's 100% fare recovery, I'd be interested to see the numbers behind that. To the best of my knowledge, NCDOT still transfers funds to Amtrak to run this route, so it must by less than 100% in some way or another..

• SEHSR from Charlotte to DC by 2015
  
• Asheville to Salisbury & Wilmington to Raleigh by 2030
  
• SEHSR southern NC route (110mph+ on ACWR and CSX) from Charlotte to Raleigh; Wilmington to Charlotte; Raleigh to Hamlet; Raleigh to Greenville & Raleigh to Morehead City by 2050
  

Great to know that there are some really long term plans on the horizon. The ACWR line from Charlotte to Raleigh is particularly intriguing. That goes through some very sparsely populated rural areas. But if we wait 30 years to start ROW acquisition, a lot of that land will cease to be rural and property values will make a project like that difficult or impossible.

For example, something I'd like to see is consolidation of the rail lines in Charlotte, freeing up the original lines for light rail. The ACWR presents probably the best such opportunity. Right now it connects to the NCRR in the NoDa neighborhood. Instead of using that connection, build a new one, 6 miles long, ~4 miles outside of 485, from the ACWR at Midland / Cabarrus to the NCRR at Harrisburg. This would free the segment from NoDa to Midland up to become an "East" light rail line, forking from the NE line after 36th. This is similar in concept to how the 1970s era Norfolk Southern belt line near the old coliseum freed the south line, which was eventually converted for LRT. But if such a plan were to be pursued, it would have to be done right away, before Charlotte's sprawl makes any potential right of way acquisitions too expensive.

[ChiefJoJo]

RE the Carolinian's 100% fare recovery, I'd be interested to see the numbers behind that. To the best of my knowledge, NCDOT still transfers funds to Amtrak to run this route, so it must by less than 100% in some way or another..

Great to know that there are some really long term plans on the horizon. The ACWR line from Charlotte to Raleigh is particularly intriguing. That goes through some very sparsely populated rural areas. But if we wait 30 years to start ROW acquisition, a lot of that land will cease to be rural and property values will make a project like that difficult or impossible.

For example, something I'd like to see is consolidation of the rail lines in Charlotte, freeing up the original lines for light rail. The ACWR presents probably the best such opportunity. Right now it connects to the NCRR in the NoDa neighborhood. Instead of using that connection, build a new one, 6 miles long, ~4 miles outside of 485, from the ACWR at Midland / Cabarrus to the NCRR at Harrisburg. This would free the segment from NoDa to Midland up to become an "East" light rail line, forking from the NE line after 36th. This is similar in concept to how the 1970s era Norfolk Southern belt line near the old coliseum freed the south line, which was eventually converted for LRT. But if such a plan were to be pursued, it would have to be done right away, before Charlotte's sprawl makes any potential right of way acquisitions too expensive.

This is all second hand, and I'm working off memory, but he said the Carolinian is typically in the black because the train set they lease from Amtrak is of the poorest quality they have, so I suppose that keeps the lease rates low. So what I surmize is even after the lease and operating payments to Amtrak DOT still typically makes a small profit.

The gist of his comment was that despite the terrible equipment and poor reliability of the Carolinian (often due to the packed A-line in VA) the line runs in the black. So that proves there is a tremendous market for SEHSR, since we are roughly talking about the same trip--Clt to DC to NYC--but in a less optimal corridor (via Rocky Mount & the A-line). I'm not sure if the Talgo set would have been for the Carolinian or Piedmont, but he said the Cascade line's experience tells them they could get a huge ridership bump by simply upgrading the train set, not to mention NCRR track improvements, new Charlotte and Raleigh intermodal centers, a marketing campaign, and a totally new, more efficient route to the NE.

The ACWR was identified in the SEHSR Feasibility Study in 1999 as a long range alternative for the NCRR route, simply becuase of design/development contraints that keep the NCRR line at 90mph. The document indicated that the ACWR/CSX lines would be much more viable for 125-150mph operation between Raleigh and Charlotte due to space development and freight traffic. It will be interesting to see if any of that 2050 vision is implemented. Either way, one would think that if SEHSR can get off the ground, it's success could make a huge difference in advancing intercity rail in the SE US and elsewhere.

They still think a noon train could happen soon. I will try to get more details on that.

[rooster8]

Asheville to Salisbury & Wilmington to Raleigh by 2030

It's amazing how far this has been pushed out considering their late 90's/early 00's plans had it starting this decade.

[orulz]

Norfolk Southern's demands for track upgrades before it would let NC run passenger trains over its line grew significantly when they closed the Saluda Grade and freight traffic over the Asheville-Salisbury line increased.

The greatest weakness of this line is the Andrews Geyser loops, where trains must traverse 13 miles of slow, winding railroad shared with freights in order to travel a straight line distance of 3 miles. Trains would take an hour to travel the 8 mile straight line distance between Black Mountain and Old Fort.

At least one report that I read mentioned bypassing the loops with an 8-mile tunnel between Black Mountain and Old Fort. Obviously a very expensive possibility, but it all in all it would be a pretty straightforward TBM application: a deep bore tunnel through solid rock in a geologically stable uninhabited area. The 8 mile length is necessary because that would maintain a 2% grade, which is acceptable (though not ideal) for freight trains. You could potentially shorten the tunnel but that would probably increase the grade. That would be OK for passenger trains, but not for freights.

Anyway. Given how many transportation projects there are in this state that need funding, this would be a low priority, but thinking long-term..

[Creasy336]

Regarding the SEHSR will there be a 2-3 gap where you have to travel to Raleigh to catch this line? At the point will it be Washington DC to Raleigh or Richmond to Raleigh? Either way I look forward to being able to enjoy a quick speedy trip to DC and then transfer to the Acela on trips to the see the family in NYC. I hope this project gets off the ground soon.

Recently NCDOT officials came to Alamance County in the Graham and Haw River area imforming property owners about the planned straightening of curves through the area and the addition of a second track. I'm still concerned about the bridge crossing the Haw River and how it will affect NC's rail future.

[Creasy336]

As far as service on the Piedmont and Carolinian goes, I would like to see reservations removed from both trains, atleast in coach. Also I would like to see ticket machines added to all amtrak stations within the state. This would boost ridership along with the addition of the mid-day train.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Creasy336

[Creasy336]

Here is an article in the Burlington Times News that talks about a sizeable jump in ridership on Amtrak within our state. Burlington and many other small to medium size cities in NC were the cities that had most increase in ridership. Overall NC's train stations had a growth of 10,000 passengers getting on and off the train. This is positive news especially in cities like Burlington and Wilson. I know for myself people always tell me they'd use the train if it were more convient here where we live (4 trains daily).

Also I would like to see ticket machines added to all amtrak stations within the state. This would boost ridership

Just by chance in today's article it mentions Burlington recieving an Amtrak Quik-Traks ticket machine in July related to the increase in ridership with hopes of boosting that further. Related to whats already been stated by Chief and others on this topic, the lady interviewed in this article had to deboard the Carolinian in Richmond VA and take a bus! She still gave positive reviews about rail transit and its convience. Edited March 19, 2008 by Creasy336

[burt]

This re-routing north of Richmond, should it occur, would speed up service between the capital cities. The Buckingham line (leased from CSX and formerly Chessie's mainline) is twisty, but it would avoid the bottleneck of Acca Yard and reduced speeds thru the heart of Ashland.

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-co...04-21-0181.html

[ChiefJoJo]

Interesting story about the SEHSR... Franklinton is worried about DOT closing off some streets along the line. I bet that street access is going to be a major issue in developing this line, especially in the urban areas. Through Raleigh, it will cross (at-grade) Jones St, Blue Ridge Rd, thru Cary, Academy St, ... etc.

Here's the SEHSR's design alignments at Franklinton:

[sax184]

Interesting story about the SEHSR... Franklinton is worried about DOT closing off some streets along the line. I bet that street access is going to be a major issue in developing this line, especially in the urban areas. Through Raleigh, it will cross (at-grade) Jones St, Blue Ridge Rd, thru Cary, Academy St, ... etc.

One thing worth noting about SEHSR in Raleigh, Cary, and beyond is that west of the downtown Raleigh Amtrak station or future multimodal center, the grade crossings for the line are already active with the Piedmont, Carolinian, and 8+ freight trains per day. From Raleigh going north is where new impacts will occur due to this project.

[orulz]

Interesting story about the SEHSR... Franklinton is worried about DOT closing off some streets along the line. I bet that street access is going to be a major issue in developing this line, especially in the urban areas. Through Raleigh, it will cross (at-grade) Jones St, Blue Ridge Rd, thru Cary, Academy St, ... etc.

I wonder where they plan on building grade separations that are currently (or previously) crossed at grade. Building grade separations and closing as many grade crossings as possible will probably be a pretty major part of the expense of the whole line, though they can probably save some money by shutting the line down for a couple years during construction.

For example, there's only one grade separation (other than the US 1 freeway) in the entire city of Henderson. And that's kind of out of the way, on Charles Street which is a very minor road. Andrews Avenue (NC39) would certainly need to be separated. New Hope Church, Millbrook, and Durant in North Raleigh come to mind as well.

[Raintree21]

News14 is reporting huge increases in ridership for the Piedmont and Carolinian. The Piedmont (Raleigh-Charlotte) had a 28 percent increase and the Carolinian (Charlotte-Raleigh) is up 41 percent this year.

[CapeFearRiver10]

News14 is reporting huge increases in ridership for the Piedmont and Carolinian. The Piedmont (Raleigh-Charlotte) had a 28 percent increase and the Carolinian (Charlotte-Raleigh) is up 41 percent this year.

This is the best transit update I've heard so far this year.... thanks for the update. Hopefully the Eastern NC transit routes do the same!

[ChiefJoJo]

Worthy of note since he'll likely be the Democratic nominee... Obama on high-speed rail:

"The irony is with the gas prices what they are, we should be expanding rail service. One of the things I have been talking bout for awhile is high speed rail connecting all of these Midwest cities -- Indianapolis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis... it is a perfect time to start talk about why we don't have better rail service. We are the only advanced country in the world that doesn't have high speed rail."

Clearly the SEHSR corridor would benefit from a new rail resurgence, as it's considered one of the most viable projects in the country.

[Gard]

^^^

Good to hear he supports high speed rail. That being said, if he supports that, he is likely to support such projects as LRT in the Triangle and hopefully make it easier to get funding for such things if he is elected.