North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[mallguy]

Re: the equipment possibilities- any equipment would work, but buying Talgos or DMUs by themselves would be pretty expensive; usually best to tack on an order as part of a larger order.

I dislike DMUs- the engine being in the car makes for a rough ride sometimes. EMUs and locomotive-hauled trains are smoother.

[hcjohnsoiv]

Track 2 (Corridor) applications are due today. Anyone know how much NCDOT is applying for? Also, when are we supposed to hear about the track 1 applications?

[orulz]

On each of NC's Track 1 applications, there is a list of everything that NC intends to apply for, and the following is included:

NC 13.2 SEHSR Corridor

NCDOT

Track 2

$3.8 B (est)

Will Apply

There are no further details about item 13.2 on the SEHSR or NCDOT Rail web page. Hopefully they'll post that pretty soon.

I really hope that this doesn't mean they need $3.8 billion straight out of the stimulus for this. Maybe they could get a $1b down payment out of the stimulus, and then some sort of agreement like a FFGA where say 50% of the remaining cost would be funded by the US out of future appropriations.

[mallguy]

Today's Observer has details about NC's application for $5.3B of federal money for the project- 2:15 between Charlotte and Raleigh, and 4 hours between Raleigh and Washington- so 9 hours from NY to Chalotte. Elimination of grade crossings, use of a new shorter route in Virginia, etc. Average speed 86 mph- that's even faster than the Acela Express.

[orulz]

The State of NC's press release says that NCDOT's rail stimulus request was more than $5 billion, and the News & Observer reports $5.3 billion.

However, the NCDOT's project list "only" shows a total of $3.9 billion for ALL projects. This $3.9 billion includes full reconstruction of the S-line from Raleigh to Petersburg, as well as improvements between Richmond and Petersburg, as well as full double-tracking of the entire NCRR clear from Charlotte to Raleigh with curve realignments and a bunch of new grade separations. It also includes new stations in Lexington and Hillsborough, new rolling stock, and *I think* new multimodal stations in Raleigh and Charlotte as well. It even includes station construction and study/engineering design work for the Asheville and Wilmington lines.

In short, the only things I can think of that would be on NCDOT Rail's capital plan and NOT in the project list, is actual construction of the Asheville and Wilmington lines.

So, my question is. If $3.9 billion covers all that, what other projects did NCDOT pull out of its hat to add up to $5.3 billion total?

Does this mean that NC has included some work north of Richmond in its request as well? Or is there something else that's been added?

[orulz]

OK so I dug a little bit deeper and I think I might have found the discrepancy. the NCDOT list says the Raleigh-Richmond segment would be $2.4 billion whereas the N&O article says it would cost $3.7 billion.

Was there some sort of change of scope that would bump the cost up by $1.3 billion since August 24th? More curve realignments? Electrification? Full double tracking rather than single track plus sidings? Did the original estimate actually only cover Raleigh to Petersburg while the new one covers Raleigh to Richmond?

[ERJ170]

Did the original estimate actually only cover Raleigh to Petersburg while the new one covers Raleigh to Richmond?

So why would NC pay for track realignment in VA? Shouldn't VA cover the cost from the NC line to Richmond?

Does the estimate include the actual rework of the missing line between Goldsboro and Wilmington (Castle Rock or something like that)?

Doesn't it also include the 4th or 5th Piedmont frequency also?

[sax184]

So why would NC pay for track realignment in VA? Shouldn't VA cover the cost from the NC line to Richmond?

Does the estimate include the actual rework of the missing line between Goldsboro and Wilmington (Castle Rock or something like that)?

Doesn't it also include the 4th or 5th Piedmont frequency also?

I believe the application from NC/VA is submitted by NC, on behalf of both states, in the form of an interstate compact. Alternatively, it is possible that NC could own the line in VA. A strange situation to be sure, but NCDOT Rail has the superior technical and implementation expertise in the two states, and VA has been comfortable with NCDOT taking the lead.

[orulz]

So why would NC pay for track realignment in VA? Shouldn't VA cover the cost from the NC line to Richmond?

If the money is coming from the federal stimulus, rather than out of NC's coffers, then NC isn't covering it anyhow: the federal government is. Doesn't matter who submits the application.

If we were to depend on VA to cover all the cost between Petersburg and the state line, then it would never get built. That part of the line is far more important to NC (it's our link to the Northeast Corridor) than it is to Virginia (it would be their link to North Carolina and that's it.)

Does the estimate include the actual rework of the missing line between Goldsboro and Wilmington (Castle Rock or something like that)

No - it only includes engineering design work for the line, plus construction of all the stations.

Doesn't it also include the 4th or 5th Piedmont frequency also?

Yes, and all the track work / rolling stock that would be required to make it happen.

[orulz]

A thought. If NC were to get funding for the improvements within NC, rather than the S-line restoration, then that would wind up double tracking the NCRR. There would be gobs of excess capacity; what better to use it for than the NCRR commuter rail line?

[ERJ170]

A thought. If NC were to get funding for the improvements within NC, rather than the S-line restoration, then that would wind up double tracking the NCRR. There would be gobs of excess capacity; what better to use it for than the NCRR commuter rail line?

just for my own personal benefit, I would push for double tracking and enclosing the entire NCRR line.. then the trains could truely go 100mph and would go Morehead City to Charlotte.. I could finally train it to New Bern and to my parents house in Pamlico County.. or I could go to Atlantic Beach (which I actually like better than Wilmington).. but, that's purely personal reasons..

[orulz]

Well, regardless, though New Bern/Morehead City is in the long term plans, it's not on the radar at the moment. Greenville/Washington is in the plan too, but both are currently slated for 2050.

The Track 2 applications are on the NCDOT website. There's not much really new there, but the applications contain some more detailed descriptions of the projects. All the projects on the NCRR are outlined in detail; the S-line to Virginia is still somewhat vague.

[hcjohnsoiv]

I think the vagueness of the projects along the S line are due to the fact that NCDOT has yet to acquire the ROW and select a final route for this section.

[New Name]

Aren't we expecting to hear about which projects have been chosen for the stimulus money any day now?

[hcjohnsoiv]

Hmmm....

Not anytime soon. I would expect the FRA to announce awards in December or January. The FRA just released a draft rail plan (which isn't much of a plan at all, but is essentially an introduction to the goals of HSR). Link Here This plan sucks. It gives me a sinking feeling that the FRA either a: doesn't know what it's doing or b: is going to handicap passenger rail because of freight railroad interests.

[uptownliving]

Aren't we expecting to hear about which projects have been chosen for the stimulus money any day now?

That was the plan but due to the high amount of applications the FRA has pushed that back to this winter.

[orulz]

On the Triangle Transit board meeting agenda for tomorrow, I see there is a presentation about the status SEHSR project by Patrick Simmons, head of NCDOT Rail division. The meeting starts at 1:00pm and this presentation is scheduled to begin around 1:40. I'm not sure if anything new will be presented but I'll try to swing by and see what's up.

[uptownliving]

I saw where NCDOT is looking to allow AMTRAK to use 4 inch cant deficiency on curves to reduce travel time betwenn Greensboro and Selma.

Anyone know how much time this will save?

[orulz]

At the TTA board meeting last week, Patrick Simmons had an answer for that question, and it was on the order of a couple minutes, but I don't remember exactly.

This is an interesting development. These sort of "soft" curve changes (aka without actually doing any sort of construction work) are basically free.

Anywhere up to 5" unbalance (cant deficiency) is really not a passenger comfort issue: that's what Amtrak uses for non-tilting trains on the northeast corridor. It's just a track maintenance issue: the outer track gets worn more quickly than the inner track. I suppose old wooden crossties (sleepers) might not be able to withstand the lateral forces as well, either, so they would have to be replaced more often too.

As a matter of reference, the Acela, which tilts, operates with up to 7" unbalance. Some tilting trains in Sweden (for example) operate with 11-12" of total unbalance.

For anyone interested, Wikipedia has a good, easy to understand discussion of how curve speed limits work on railroads in the US. The equation for calculating speed around a curve is:

Where 3 is the assumed unbalance, E_a is the actual superelevation (cant), and d is the degrees of curvature per 100 feet of track (which seems to be the standard unit for measuring curvature in the US, at least for the rail industry.)

To illustrate: take the curve under NC147 (Durham Freeway) in Durham, at roughly NCRR milepost H51. This is one of the sharpest curves on the NCRR and given the level of infrastructure in place around it, significant realignment is unlikely to happen soon. Its parameters are: 4.0 degrees/ 100'; 4" actual superelevation. Plug that into the equation above with 3" unbalance, and you get a maximum speed of 50mph. With 4" unbalance, 53.5mph. 5", 56.7mph.

Plug in some more aggressive parameters (by US standards - 5" real superelevation, and 7" unbalance) yields 65mph. If this were Sweden, we could go for 7" real superelevation and 12" unbalance, for a speed limit of 82.4mph.

Full realignment of this part of the NCRR is in the ARRA project list, but it's pretty far down:

NCRR H48-54.5

Double track Funston to Durham and improve 5 bridges for additional track and improved track geometry.

Provides for at-speed meets of passenger trains and reduces travel time. Existing speed 55-60 mph. Design speed 79 mph with future upgrade to 90 mph.

Estimated cost: $36.8 million

[orulz]

The Asheville Citizen-Times has an article today about WNC passenger rail service. The article title, "WNC Train plans take back seat", pretty much tells the story. Construction, estimated at $130 million earlier this decade, is now estimated at closer to $200 million, not including station construction. Some stimulus and state money, to the tune of $2 million, may come in for environmental studies and preliminary planning for the line, but that's it for now.

[Spartan]

Is this the line to connect to Winston or the line to connect to Spartanburg that was being discussed a few years ago?

[rooster8]

The article is discussing the line that will run to Salisbury. I think Winston-Salem was studied as a destination instead of Salisbury, but it was eliminated during one of the first rail expansion studies.

[ChiefJoJo]

The article is discussing the line that will run to Salisbury. I think Winston-Salem was studied as a destination instead of Salisbury, but it was eliminated during one of the first rail expansion studies.

Presumably, the Asheville service would interline with the Piedmont service joining the NCRR corridor to points east, such as Greensboro or Raleigh, rather than terminating in Salisbury. That is assuming there will be enough capacity on that line, especially on the busy segment to Greensboro, which would include dozens of NS freights, and at least 8 Piedmont/SEHSR frequencies/day.

[orulz]

Presumably, the Asheville service would interline with the Piedmont service joining the NCRR corridor to points east, such as Greensboro or Raleigh, rather than terminating in Salisbury. That is assuming there will be enough capacity on that line, especially on the busy segment to Greensboro, which would include dozens of NS freights, and at least 8 Piedmont/SEHSR frequencies/day.

Actually I think passengers to/from Asheville will be expected to transfer at Salisbury. This is what Southern did with the old Asheville Special that was discontinued in 1975. Historically, there was a through train from Asheville to Goldsboro, called the Carolina Special, but it didn't go through Salisbury: it turned onto the K line at Barber Junction, going through Mocksville and Winston-Salem, joining the NCRR at Greensboro (Pomona). That one was cancelled sometime in the 1960s.

The reason you can't do through trains that serve Salisbury is that the Salisbury station is south of the point where the Asheville line joins the NCRR mainline. Interlining from Charlotte to Asheville would be easy, but given the circuitous route and long travel times, it's not too likely.

Technically you could operate an Asheville-Salisbury-Raleigh through train by backing into or out of the station, but Amtrak is understandably reluctant to incorporate backing moves like this into its revenue operations.

Another option would be to skip Salisbury entirely on Asheville trains. Yet another would be to stop in Spencer instead of Salisbury. This is similar to what they did in Smithfield/Selma. Smithfield is the larger of the two, but Amtrak stops in Selma so that trains from Raleigh can stop there. So you would either end up with two stations in the Salisbury area (Spencer for Asheville trains, downtown for everything else) or else just consolidate intercity operations in Spencer. If the latter, the downtown Salisbury station could be mothbolled but reactivated when commuter trains to Charlotte inevitably start running in a few decades. Besides, Spencer wouldn't be such a bad place for a train station, given the location of the NC Transportation Museum.

[mallguy]

Over Thanksgiving, I have to go to Greenville, and I'm flying into CLT. Typically it's dirt-cheap to rent a car, but over Thanksgiving, I just paid $85 for a 2-hour 1-way rental. I looked at Greyhound, which I'd normally never consider, and there are apparently only 3 or 4 trips each way between CLT and Greenville.

Why isn't one of the Piedmont trains that would typically sit at the Charlotte station all day not being run down to Greenville or at least Spartanburg and back during the downtime, at least over the Thanksgiving (and Christmas) holidays? (Yes I know that Gov. Sanford probably doesn't care to spend a penny on other people's transportation, but surely there's a way to get this done.)

Put a locomotive on each end of the train, as NJ Transit and Amtrak sometimes do, and it doesn't need to be turned around.

Are there strict capacity constraints on Norfolk Southern between Charlotte and Greenville?