North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[ChiefJoJo]

Why isn't one of the Piedmont trains that would typically sit at the Charlotte station all day not being run down to Greenville or at least Spartanburg and back during the downtime, at least over the Thanksgiving (and Christmas) holidays? (Yes I know that Gov. Sanford probably doesn't care to spend a penny on other people's transportation, but surely there's a way to get this done.)

Put a locomotive on each end of the train, as NJ Transit and Amtrak sometimes do, and it doesn't need to be turned around.

Are there strict capacity constraints on Norfolk Southern between Charlotte and Greenville?

SC has chosen not to make any rail investments to make that happen, planning, capital or operation. Conversely, NC has invested in developing the Piedmont, investing here and there for 15-20 years.

[uptownliving]

There is a train that runs from Charlotte to Greenville (and on to Atlanta and New Orleans) but it runs once a day in the middle of the night.

Train departs Charlotte at 2:45AM and arrives in Greenville at 4:54AM

Train departs Greenville at 11:15PM and arrives in Charlotte at 1:38AM

These times probably arnt conveinent for most everybody.

I do think that SC and GA really need to get on the ball and start investing some money. Especially if they want high speed rail to Atlanta some day.

[mallguy]

I like the Crescent and have taken it to and from Greenville and elsewhere, even when the Southern Railway ran it.

For the Piedmont (and Carolinian)- couldn't Amtrak work something out with Norfolk Southern

to run the otherwise idle equipment down to Greenville or Spartanurg (or Columbia)?

Perhaps the NC DOT has full ownership and control over the Piedmont (?) but the Carolinian is supported at least in part by Amtrak and uses Amtrak equipment.

Edited November 28, 2009 by mallguy

[ChiefJoJo]

I like the Crescent and have taken it to and from Greenville and elsewhere, even when the Southern Railway ran it.

For the Piedmont (and Carolinian)- couldn't Amtrak work something out with Norfolk Southern

to run the otherwise idle equipment down to Greenville or Spartanurg (or Columbia)?

Perhaps the NC DOT has full ownership and control over the Piedmont (?) but the Carolinian is supported at least in part by Amtrak and uses Amtrak equipment.

Again, the state of SC would have to collaborate with NCDOT to plan the service extension, pay to do the physical track upgrades (if any are required) and operating costs to extend the line. SC has to pay to play and I don't see anyone in SC calling for that to happen. I'm not sure about the Carolinian, but the Piedmont is 100% funded by the state of NC. They pay Amtrak to operated the service.

[orulz]

Again, the state of SC would have to collaborate with NCDOT to plan the service extension, pay to do the physical track upgrades (if any are required) and operating costs to extend the line. SC has to pay to play and I don't see anyone in SC calling for that to happen. I'm not sure about the Carolinian, but the Piedmont is 100% funded by the state of NC. They pay Amtrak to operated the service.

For the Carolinian, NC covers the operating deficit within the state of NC. This basically amounts to lower ticket prices. North of the VA border, the train operates profitably.

[mallguy]

I see from a recent NARP online news release that Amtrak extended one of its Midwestern trains temporarily, for a state fair or something. Still not seeing why Amtrak couldn't do the same for the Carolinian for Thanksgiving week and Christmas week. The only additional costs, for what I see, would be (1) fuel, insurance (?), crew costs (maybe- is the crew paid all day anyhow?), any cafe car losses and (2) any extra payments to Norfolk Southern, and I would assume that ticket revenues would be pretty high since the Crescent is sold out during those periods. The Charlotte-Spartanburg-Greenville line already has a passenger train on it that runs at a decent speed so no track upgrades should be required, and the SCDOT wouldn't have to get involved necessarily.

Edited December 4, 2009 by mallguy

[orulz]

I see from a recent NARP online news release that Amtrak extended one of its Midwestern trains temporarily, for a state fair or something. Still not seeing why Amtrak couldn't do the same for the Carolinian for Thanksgiving week and Christmas week. The only additional costs, for what I see, would be (1) fuel, insurance (?), crew costs (maybe- is the crew paid all day anyhow?), any cafe car losses and (2) any extra payments to Norfolk Southern, and I would assume that ticket revenues would be pretty high since the Crescent is sold out during those periods. The Charlotte-Spartanburg-Greenville line already has a passenger train on it that runs at a decent speed so no track upgrades should be required, and the SCDOT wouldn't have to get involved necessarily.

Did Amtrak extend the midwestern train on its own dime, or was it a 403(b) train where the state paid for the extension? I suspect the latter. Amtrak doesn't have money floating around to spend on train extensions like that. NC already offers similar services by stopping at the fairgrounds during the NC State Fair, and Lexington during the BBQ festival. I've actually heard some serious talk about NC footing the bill to extend the Piedmont to Selma or Rocky Mount, but any extension into SC would have to be funded by SC.

Or possibly SC could apply for a federal grant (these sorts of grants are available, on occasion) to run the service for a year or two. If it's popular, then they could keep it running, or if not, cancel it. In any case, SC is about 2 decades behind North Carolina when it comes to passenger rail. The Carolinian started rolling in 1990.

[mallguy]

Good points- it is the Heartland Flyer, subsidized by Oklahoma.

Oh well- I'd think that there is zero chance that SC will ever pay for train service, but that I-85 corridor can be pretty rough and really needs an alternative.

[ERJ170]

I would much prefer the Piedmont to travel to at least New Bern rather than just sitting around for most of the day.. Eastern NC is so tranportation deprived compared to Western NC.. just a wish of mine...

Anywho.. does anyone know when the 3rd frequency will be announced? The last report/comment I heard is that the service would start March 1-ish, 2010.. Does Amtrak need a 3 month into time like airlines, or do they usually start soon after announcing new service?

[mallguy]

I thought that the third frequency was originally announced at least a year ago, to start in 2009.

Not sure what the delay is due to- perhaps assembling the equipment and putting it in good shape?

[orulz]

I thought that the third frequency was originally announced at least a year ago, to start in 2009.

Not sure what the delay is due to- perhaps assembling the equipment and putting it in good shape?

I think NCDOT probably already has enough equipment ready to go in order to run the second train. My guess is that March 2010 is the expected completion date of the second track between Greensboro and High Point.

[orulz]

I think NCDOT probably already has enough equipment ready to go in order to run the second train. My guess is that March 2010 is the expected completion date of the second track between Greensboro and High Point.

Turns out the double track from Greensboro to High Point actually opened today. It has speed restrictions in place at the moment, so it will only be used as a freight siding until the speed restrictions are lifted. The restrictions will probably be in place for only a few days.

Assuming federal funding, which is pretty likely, everything from Charlotte to Greensboro will probably be double tracked by 2012.

[mallguy]

Turns out the double track from Greensboro to High Point actually opened today. It has speed restrictions in place at the moment, so it will only be used as a freight siding until the speed restrictions are lifted. The restrictions will probably be in place for only a few days.

Assuming federal funding, which is pretty likely, everything from Charlotte to Greensboro will probably be double tracked by 2012.

That's great news. Thanks for sharing. Do we know how much time that will save on Charlotte-Raleigh trips?

I also found out in the National Corridors weekly newsletter: the temporary Amtrak extension of the Heartland flyer was paid for by the local Chamber of Commerce. Greenville/Spartanburg, stop up to the plate1

Edited December 10, 2009 by mallguy

[tozmervo]

Two people were killed in Durham yesterday when their SUV - stopped on the tracks - was struck by a Charlotte-bound amtrak train (judging from the time, I would guess the Carolinian #79). The accident occurred at the Ellis Road crossing. Evidentally there is a $13.5mil grant application out to the Feds to separate that crossing

[orulz]

From what I can see, it's actually part of a $24.5 million project that would:

• Grade separate Glover and Ellis Roads
  
• Close the Wrenn Rd. crossing and build an alternate connection into the neighborhood (probably an extension of Angier
  
• Extend the siding that ends just south of Glover Rd. as far as TW Alexander Dr.
  
• Realign some curves so that trains can run faster

[orulz]

There was a tiny update on the SEHSR page today: Public hearings for the EIS will start in March, 2010 (previously it said "mid 2010".) The draft EIS will be circulated to the public early next year. I've been following this project for years, since 2004 or so, and it's really nice to see how far this has progressed, and how the progress has really quickened since $8b was included in the ARRA.

Hendeson, in particular its downtown, seems to get a tough deal in the plans that have been circulated thus far. In Henderson, there are currently 16 grade crossings and one (downtown) grade separation. 12 of the grade crossings will be closed, and only 4 separations built, all of them far from downtown. Every single downtown grade crossing (Unless you count NC39 as downtown, which I don't) will be closed. Maybe an elevated line through town would be better.

Nevertheless, I don't think Henderson will be the most controversial part of the line. It's a relatively poor town, and opposition is usually quieter where there's less money. On the positive side for Henderson, they are also getting a downtown station. In addition, only about 4 HSR trains are planned in each direction per day at first. With very little freight traffic and plenty of passing sidings, that means the line would be ripe for some kind of commuter service as well.

In Raleigh, there will be some discussion over which route the line should take downtown. Jones Street and West Street in particular are tricky spots. But in all, Raleigh will gain a number of grade separations, and since the line sticks mostly to industrial areas, controversy will be pretty much non-existent outside of downtown.

Small towns, like Franklinton, or particularly the affluent town of Wake Forest, will be the most controversial. The line goes through the center of town. They have the time and money to fight, and property values are probably high enough that people will be worried about loss of value. But Wake Forest is no Palo Alto - so I still expect smooth sailing here, compared to what's going on out in California.

[tozmervo]

It's happened again - a Northbound Carolinian struck a car that went around the crossing arms* in Efland, NC. No one on the train was hurt, but two people were killed and a baby thrown from the vehicle has been hospitalized.

* Apparently some witnesses say the arms were malfunctioning. Others say the car drove straight through an arm.

Edited December 22, 2009 by tozmervo

[staffer]

Charlotte area NC RR double tracking project workshop 1/12/2010:

.....

The North Carolina Department of Transportation (NCDOT) Rail Division will convene an informal meeting on Tuesday, January 12 for local elected officials to discuss the proposed plans to add an additional railroad track in the North Carolina Railroad Corridor that parallels Old Concord Road and University City Boulevard (NC 49) in northeast Charlotte. The meeting will be held from 3:30pm until 4:30pm in the cafeteria of University Meadows Elementary School, located at 1600 Pavilion Boulevard. During that time, NCDOT staff will provide elected officials with an opportunity to view conceptual plans, ask questions and voice their concerns about the double track project.

Following the local elected officials meeting, a workshop for citizens will be held at the same location from 5:00pm until 7:00pm.

Other improvements being considered in the corridor include realigning several railroad curves, providing safer at-grade roadway crossings, and upgrading several bridges. The proposed project would increase the overall corridor capacity and improve passenger train schedule reliability by allowing freight and passenger trains to quickly and efficiently maneuver around each other.

Edited January 2, 2010 by staffer

[hcjohnsoiv]

So, according to the last update on this site, the new midday Piedmont is supposed to start on the 1st of March. Is this still the case?

[hcjohnsoiv]

Just got back from the Transportation Research Board annual meeting in DC. According to several folks I talked to there, the grants for HSR won't be announced until after the President signs a health care bill (probably in the next few weeks). Take it for what it's worth. Also, Pat Simmons (head of NCDOT Rail) was there and seemed to be in a fairly good mood. Again, just speculation on my part.

[ERJ170]

So, today is January 19th. If the 2nd Piedmont is supposed to start on March 1, should there not have been some announcement by now? Has it been further delayed? Will it actually start as advertised? It just seems that it should have been loaded in the system by now.

Anyone have an idea?

Also, I remember reading somewhere that Norfolk Southern may be interested in getting back in the passenger rail service. Any other word from that?

[orulz]

NCDOT has posted some plans for the second track restoration between Charlotte and Concord.

The project is expected to be $30 million for 12 miles of new double track. That seems expensive.

NCDOT's materials indicate that there's more planned here than just the addition of a second track, but it's not clear whether it's part of the $30m project, or whether the improvements are planned for a later date. The materials posted by NCDOT indicate several curve realignments to remove speed restrictions. Also, they're planning a lot of changes to crossings. Out of the 14 grade crossings in the area, 9 may be closed, three may be grade separated (Orr Rd, Caldwell Rd, and Pharr Mill Rd), and just two will probably be kept but improved (Back Creek Church Rd and Robinson Church Rd).

[tozmervo]

I'm curious, was it an intentional move for these improvements to end at virtually the exact point where the light rail extension would leave the NCRR corridor?

[orulz]

I'm curious, was it an intentional move for these improvements to end at virtually the exact point where the light rail extension would leave the NCRR corridor?

I think it's a coincidence. That just happens to be where the double track on the NCRR ends.

[uptownliving]

So tomorrow (Thursday) is the day Obama plans to announce the grants for High Speed Rail. Keep your fingers crossed for BIG MONEY for the SEHSR!