North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[New Name]

Looks like the NCDOT finally came to a consensus with NS. However it seems not all of the money will be allocated; only 461 Million compared to the $545 originally promised. Either way this is great news for the state and our rail service. Here's a link from the Charlotte Observer..... Rail Deal

I just read the article. Trying to make sense of what exactly happened: This agreement allows NC to use the first major grant - which includes projects such as the CSX crossing and double tracking...but NOT bridge Sugar Creek, or Gateway Station. Correct? However, now that the deal is in place, it may be easier to get money from the redistribution of FLA HSR money allowing those projects to be funded? Am I getting that right?

[kermit]

I just read the article. Trying to make sense of what exactly happened: This agreement allows NC to use the first major grant - which includes projects such as the CSX crossing and double tracking...but NOT bridge Sugar Creek, or Gateway Station. Correct? However, now that the deal is in place, it may be easier to get money from the redistribution of FLA HSR money allowing those projects to be funded? Am I getting that right?

Yes, you have it exactly right. This step will (if the work gets bid out quickly) prevent any right wing driven recision of the funds in NC and enables NC to compete for the FLHSR cash (potentially for Gateway and the grade separations in N Charlotte).

The missing $84 million was (AFIK) already allocated to NCDOT for purchasing and refurbishing equipment for the 4 and 5th frequency trains.

The one bummer is that VA is still negotiation with CSX, was this over the use of the S line? That was only about 20 million, right?

[New Name]

So what's the timeline for the rebidding of the FLAHSR money? And how quickly can NC use that money if they were to win some?

[kermit]

^ If memory serves the application deadline is April 4th, with notification to winners 2 weeks later.

[orulz]

A chunk of the stimulus money has already been awarded to NC for things like purchase and overhaul of locomotives and coaches, and station improvements. For example, station improvements are currently underway to fix an old ugly retaining wall and add some extra parking at High Point, and the Cary station is being expanded into a fully staffed station with a bigger waiting area. My guess is that if you add the amount previously awarded to NC, the amount not yet awarded for the CSX crossovers, and the $461 million awarded today, you will get $545 million.

Another interesting tidbit in the article:

N.C. DOT is expected this spring to announce a new route, based on recommendations by several Raleigh residents, that would bypass Five Points by lifting the trains on new tracks over Capital Boulevard.

Looks like NCDOT is coming up with some way to make the "NC4" alternative, or something like it, work. Depending on the final design, this may be great news for Raleigh - the one drawn up by Raleigh residents kept all current streets except for Jones open to traffic, but grade separated all the crossings and even allowed for a couple new street connections to be built that aren't there right now.

[orulz]

Just found this gem which was filed in the NC house yesterday.

AN ACT to prohibit the department of transportation from accepting federal funds for a high‑speed rail project without Explicit authorization from the General Assembly, and to provide a penalty for the Department of Transportation for noncompliance.

The bill states that, if it passes, it will have an effective date of March 1, 2011.

First, I can't imagine even the republican-controlled legislature passing this bill.

Second, even if it does, I can't imagine it getting by without a veto from the governor.

Third, Even if the governor does not veto it, there's still a decent chance that the legislature would agree to accept the federal HSR money.

Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, is a retroactive bill like this even legal? It wasn't even filed until yesterday. Doesn't that make it an ex post facto law, which both the federal government and the states are explicitly prohibited from passing by the US constitution? The only possible loophole I could see is that the bill applies to the DOT which itself is an agency of the government.

[kermit]

^ I am genuinely saddened that our state has become so childishly partisan.

If you have any news on how the bill is progressing _please_ share it with us.

[Sabaidee]

I don't think it'll pass, Mecklenburg and Wake counties may have Republican delegates in the General Assembly and those counties have strong visions and community involvement regarding any sort of rail service. The state House Speaker is from Huntersville and that part of Mecklenburg is very pro-rail if not the most supportive in the county. I can't speak for Wake delegations, but the Charlotte area bipartisan delegation in varying ways is in support of rail.

[kermit]

I don't think it'll pass, Mecklenburg and Wake counties may have Republican delegates in the General Assembly and those counties have strong visions and community involvement regarding any sort of rail service. The state House Speaker is from Huntersville and that part of Mecklenburg is very pro-rail if not the most supportive in the county. I can't speak for Wake delegations, but the Charlotte area bipartisan delegation in varying ways is in support of rail.

Unfortunately one of the bill's writers is from Mecklenburg: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/03/22/2163257/republicans-to-perdue-give-back.html

[ERJ170]

I just read the article. Trying to make sense of what exactly happened: This agreement allows NC to use the first major grant - which includes projects such as the CSX crossing and double tracking...but NOT bridge Sugar Creek, or Gateway Station. Correct? However, now that the deal is in place, it may be easier to get money from the redistribution of FLA HSR money allowing those projects to be funded? Am I getting that right?

Hasn't NC already gotten some of the original $545 MIllion? I cant remember how much but wasn't it about $60+ or $80+ Million? Whatever the case, I am glad to see it finally arrive. But alas, it's sad that the busiest station in NC doesn't get any.. poor Raleigh.. I've been in that station before and it could use a bigger area and more importantly, a bigger parking lot.

Also, on a slight tangent, didn't I read somewhere the stations are getting Rail Information Displays (like at airports that will show when a train will arrive and depart)? Or is that just a dream of mine?

Lastly.. heheehe.. Would it be worthwhile if the bytrain.org site showed Arrival departures per station? Like airline websites do. Perhaps give each station their own page that shows amenities, arrivals/departures, etc..

I mean, if airports can do it, couldn't rail stations?

[mallguy]

Unfortunately one of the bill's writers is from Mecklenburg: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/03/22/2163257/republicans-to-perdue-give-back.html

Ugh.

Pat McCrory is also from Charlotte and has a lot of influence, despite not being in office.

Grassroots Republicans in Mecklenburg County were actually more supportive of the half-cent sales tax for transit than Democrats were. I wouldn't go ahead and call this battle lost.

[aceboogie]

Unfortunately one of the bill's writers is from Mecklenburg: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/03/22/2163257/republicans-to-perdue-give-back.html

Is there any way this can be defeated? Perhaps the constituents could say something about it.

[Sabaidee]

Is there any way this can be defeated? Perhaps the constituents could say something about it.

Our best bet is the House Speaker, or let the constituents in his district (Huntersville) be vocal about it. This rail money is the beginning stages for the Red Line and the Gateway Station (by allowing grade separations of the rail crossing will make the Red Line and Gateway easier to proceed). Any hampering on the Red Line will make him listen b/c we all know how badly Huntersville wants the Red Line.

[New Name]

I assume many of the posters on this thread are watching the Charlotte threads about this too, but can anyone provide a list of email addresses for my representatives, to tell them to oppose this bill? We could all take 5 minutes to do this.

[kermit]

You can find out who your state reps are from this site (although its kinda clunky)

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/GIS/RandR07/Representation.html

The zip code lookup (you need a zip +4) provides links to the rep profiles which includes an email address. I will send my emails today

[John Thacker]

Just thinking about the future rail situation. When the S-line is rebuilt, I'd like to see one of the Amtrak LD train, either the Silver Meteor or the Palmetto, routed via Raleigh via Selma and the NCRR. This gives Raleigh a direct train to both Charleston and Fayetteville. Perhaps they could turn the Palmetto back into the Silver Palm, and run it via the FEC to Miami. That would result in the following routes:

Silver Meteor: Richmond-Rocky Mount-Fayetteville-Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville-Orlando-Miami

Silver Star: Richmond-Raleigh-Columbia-Savannah-Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa-Miami

Silver Palm: Richmond-Raleigh-Fayetteville-Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville-Daytona Beach-Miami

With the FEC and the 110mph S line, the Silver Palm would be far and away the fastest way to get to Miami.

Actually, that's not quite right, according to the planning documents (http://www.sehsr.org...y/chapter6.html), while the Silver Star almost certainly will be routed through the S-Line, it would actually slow down the Silver Meteor slightly to route it on the S-line without substantial upgrades of the S-line south of Raleigh.

They didn't even consider routing down the S-line to Raleigh and then going along the NCRR to Selma, as that circuitous route would end up be slowing than either just going down the A-line or S-line, just as the Silver Star is slow now, even with the speed ups on a 110mph S-line from Raleigh to Petersburg. The Silver Star will be as fast to Savannah as the Silver Meteor or Silver Palm on their optimal routes.

[John Thacker]

A chunk of the stimulus money has already been awarded to NC for things like purchase and overhaul of locomotives and coaches, and station improvements. For example, station improvements are currently underway to fix an old ugly retaining wall and add some extra parking at High Point, and the Cary station is being expanded into a fully staffed station with a bigger waiting area. My guess is that if you add the amount previously awarded to NC, the amount not yet awarded for the CSX crossovers, and the $461 million awarded today, you will get $545 million.

There was $43 million for station improvements already, and $20 million for the locomotive and coach overhaul for the midday train, so that's most of the difference.

[kermit]

I believe that Scott Saylor met with the bill sponsors today. Any one hear how that went?

I did wonder today if the grant recipient could be switched from NCDOT to the NCRR corp. The hope would be to bypass any ideologically driven legislation. This seemed to be the type of thing they were considering in Florida.

(I will admit I don't know much about the legal issues involved here)

[kdub1]

I have a slightly different wish list.. I wish the SEHSR would be Amtrak.. So NEC (Boston - Richmond) and SEC (Richmond to Atlanta/Richmond to Jacksonville) would stay Amtrak..

Then I'd love to see intra-Carolina/Virgina to be privatized.. Piedmont (and add a Piedmont Express that only stops RGH-GSO-CLT), Asheville Special (ASH-RGH), Cape Fear (WLM-RGH), Bragg Rag (FAY-Fuquay-Cary-RGH),Tidewater (GSO-RGH-Petersburg-Norfolk), and Neuse Goose (RGH-Selma-Goldsboro-Kinston-New Bern-Morehead) be run by private/public means.. perhaps have companies sponsor or have naming rights for rail stop to assist with the build and maintenance.. and have the state subsidize a total of 20%, with cities adding a subsidy of 5%, and raising the fares sligthly by the private party to truly cover the cost of the service.. just a thought..

And yes, I really believe those routes could work with a 5 car trainset.. using DMUs

The Piedmont should be contracted out to NCRR because it would provide the entity a primer on how it can plan commuter service in the future. With the Piedmont under its control, NCRR can better coordinate that route with three of its four commuter routes (W. Greensboro-Burlington; GRO-RGH; University Station Rd.-Goldsboro). By default, the railroad could also be given operating rights for the Neuse Goose and coordinate it with the Piedmont to allow connecting passengers to travel the entire NCRR route (Charlotte-Morehead City).

Since NCRR has track rights on the Piedmont Line, station use wouldn’t be a problem. For the other operators, the state would have to work out deals to have those entities to staff that company’s employees in CLT, GRO, DNC, CYN and RGH.

Winston-Salem would greatly benefit in having a private operator since a planned commuter route has been Extending the route east to Greensboro would then allow riders to connect to Amtrak trains.

This proposal reflects what the Germans have done with regional services even more so than mine. It would also allow new operators to showcase new equipment.

Looks like NCDOT is coming up with some way to make the "NC4" alternative, or something like it, work. Depending on the final design, this may be great news for Raleigh - the one drawn up by Raleigh residents kept all current streets except for Jones open to traffic, but grade separated all the crossings and even allowed for a couple new street connections to be built that aren't there right now.

I hope that it does work out with NC4.

Just found this gem which was filed in the NC house yesterday.

The bill states that, if it passes, it will have an effective date of March 1, 2011.

First, I can't imagine even the republican-controlled legislature passing this bill.

Second, even if it does, I can't imagine it getting by without a veto from the governor.

Third, Even if the governor does not veto it, there's still a decent chance that the legislature would agree to accept the federal HSR money.

Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, is a retroactive bill like this even legal? It wasn't even filed until yesterday. Doesn't that make it an ex post facto law, which both the federal government and the states are explicitly prohibited from passing by the US constitution? The only possible loophole I could see is that the bill applies to the DOT which itself is an agency of the government.

^ I am genuinely saddened that our state has become so childishly partisan.

If you have any news on how the bill is progressing _please_ share it with us.

That bill won’t clear the second hurdle since Perdue has been clashing with the legislature. If it does somehow get to her desk, it will certainly be VETOED. Until that bill dies, I’ll say that the John Locke Foundation has a serious influence over these GOP lawmakers and we are not even three months into the new General Assembly session.

[Otto]

I just read the article. Trying to make sense of what exactly happened: This agreement allows NC to use the first major grant - which includes projects such as the CSX crossing and double tracking...but NOT bridge Sugar Creek, or Gateway Station. Correct? However, now that the deal is in place, it may be easier to get money from the redistribution of FLA HSR money allowing those projects to be funded? Am I getting that right?

NCDOT currently has money for the following track and roadway improvement projects

TIP # C-4901: Double Track in Davidson County and two grade separations

TIP # P-5206: Double Track in Rowan County and three grade separations

TIP # P-5208: Double Track in Cabarrus-Mecklenburg and four grade separtions

TIP # P-5002: CSX/NS Mainline Grade Separation in Charlotte

TIP # U-5008: Sugar Creek Road Grade Separation

TIP # U-3459: Klumac Road Grade Separation (Salisbury)

TIP # U-4716: Hopson Road Grade Separation and railroad siding from I-40 to north of I-540

TIP # P-5205: New siding and realignment from Graham to Haw River

TIP # P-5201: Morrisville Parkway Grade Separation

TIP # P-5204: Carmon Road at-grade crossing closure

TIP # I-2304AE: Duke Curve Realignment

Gateway Station currently is not funded.

[Otto]

NCDOT is not doing a good job of explaining what the rail money actually means for inter-city travel in NC. Yes, there will be 13 minutes cut off of the total trip...but what else?

(1) Competitive Travel Time: Improving curves will allow the trains to travel faster. Slowing down and speeding back up through curves take considerable time. By shaving the additional time off of the trip, train travel time is now competitive with car from Raleigh to Charlotte.

(2) Reliability: Three projects will result in double track from Greensboro to Kings Mountain in Cleveland County. Two additional projects will add long siding between Raleigh and Greensboro. Now, instead of passenger trains being stuck behind slower freights or having to wait in sidings for other trains to pass....the corridor will now be more fluid. Trains will actually be able to meet their scheduled times. If trains are on time, more folks will be willing to ride.

(3) Additional Service: The money is also paying for 3rd and 4th frequency for the Piedmont. This will result in two more round trips...making a total of 4 Piedmont (Charlotte to Raleigh) and 1 Carolinian (Charlotte to NYC via Raleigh)round tirps. Additional trips = more convenient arrival and departure times. Including the Crescent (NYC to New Orleans via Greensboro and Charlotte), there will be 6 round trips between Greensboro and Charlotte.

(4) Safer Travel for rail passengers: a significant number of at-grade crossings are being closed, consolidated and replaced with bridges either over or under the tracks. A number of private, unsignalized crossings are being closed. Humped crossings where there is potential for low-bed tractor-trailers to snag are being replaced.

(5) Additional freight capacity: Norfolk Southern has a plan call the Crescent Corridor which seeks to remove trucks off of the roads by allowing the railroad to offer faster transit times for freight from the southeast to the northeast. This money will give NS a double track "freeway" from the SC/NC border to north of Greensboro. This is the busiest rail corridor in the state of NC.

[mallguy]

If those legislators are so concerned about money being spent on rail transport, why aren't they considering privatizing the NCRR? There is no need for a government to own a freight-hauling railroad, even if a couple of passenger trains run on it. Freight railroads make plenty of money.

[orulz]

By owning the NCRR, the state gets:

(1) Access to the 200-foot wide right of way, including revenues from utilities installed in the corridor, the ability to build streets and light rail in the corridor without having to pay NS, etc

(2) The ability to ensure that revenue generated by the line (NS's lease payments) is spent on the line itself, rather than being sucked away towards improving an intermodal yard in Chicago or something.

(3) A stronger position in negotiating to make improvements to and run new services on the line

(4) Overall, the ability to run the railroad in such a way that best serves the citizens of North Carolina, rather than the shareholders of Norfolk Southern.

Although I have no doubt that somebody in the legislature will propose to sell it, I doubt that NS (or anybody) would come close to paying the true value of the four above benefits that the state gets out of it. Probably what would happen is, they would be unable to sell it except for some terrible cut-rate price, say $500 million, and then if they decided to buy it back from NS two years later, the price would somehow magically quadruple.

The city of Chicago has 'privatized' its parking meters, airports, tollways, etc for a one-time cash infusion that is used to plug holes in its annual budget. This is in effect what selling the NCRR would be for the state; in my opinion, this is disastrous as it only postpones the day of reckoning when programs must be cut or taxes raised by another year, and gives away a revenue-generating asset.

The government could also sell off the interstate highways and certainly a private company could add tolling and set tolls high enough to generate a profit. I don't see you or anyone advocating that though.

Besides, plans call for running a bunch more passenger trains on the line including commuter rail. It is IMO very important that the state retains as much control over this very valuable asset as possible.

[kermit]

I completely agree with both posts above about privatization of the NCRR. Since the NCRR has (and will continue) to play a huge role in the economic development of North Carolina (it was built by the state to connect NC's pre-Civil war "cities" because no private company wanted to do it -- an important lession for today's party of no). Since the line is profitable in its current incarnation and it is (to a degree) fulfilling its mission to serve North Carolina I fail to see any significant long-term gain to the state from selling it. The great risk in selling it would be that the likely buyer will be much more interested in moving freight through the state rather than in moving freight an passengers within the state (although, to be honest, this is the situation we have now with the long-term lease to NS).

Having said that, I do wonder about a middle ground between privatization and state control. The company web site identifies the NCRR as "a privately run company, fully owned by the state. " It was apparently structured as an REIT before 1998 and was partially privately owned then. I would think this would make it possible to sell a non-controlling number of shares of the company to investors. (higher share prices could be obtained by including a right of first refusal to purchase the remaining shares should NC ever decide to totally divest). This would accomplish a couple things:

1) provide an infusion of capital

2) The ownership status would make passenger rail in NC a true public/private partnership. The partial private finance would hopefully thwart part of the right wing jihad against passenger rail in NC.

3) By auctioning a limited number of shares we could identify a true 'market price' for the railroad. Hopefully this would prevent the 'cheap' sale of the railroad.

I suppose the merit of this approach really depends on what the capital would be used for. I also do not know the story behind why the private ownership REIT structure was ended in 1998.

Just out of curiosity I checked the 2009 annual report for the NCRR -- the company does pay property taxes ($551 thousand in 2009) and income taxes ($60 thousand) so in that sense it is already a private company.

Edited March 25, 2011 by kermit

[mallguy]

I agree with the above post- even a minority stake by private investors would be better than none.

By having a publicly-owned railroad, the state also loses:

(1) Tax revenues (only $50k in income taxes? that means income is too low)

(2) Efficiency due to accountability to shareholders and investors rather than government

(3) Substantial revenues from selling it, which could be invested in improvements to passenger rail

I'd argue that the way to run a railroad to best serve the citizens of North Carolina is to have it run privately; public-sector ownership of lines that are principally freight-hauling is very rare in the US and increasingly rare even in Western Europe.

Even Metro-North/Amtrak lines around New York City are privately owned (as is Grand Central Terminal), by the successor to Penn Central. Those assets are leased to Metro-North, the publicly-owned passenger railroad.

There are many highways that have substantial private-sector participation- even one near Greenville, SC is that way, and a private operator collects tolls on it. (It has been a financial disaster, but private investors, rather than taxpayers, have been hit with many of its losses.) I am not advocating that and am not interested in highways anyhow, but plenty of other transportation assets have private-sector participation.

Edited March 25, 2011 by mallguy