North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[DEnd]

I suppose the merit of this approach really depends on what the capital would be used for. I also do not know the story behind why the private ownership REIT structure was ended in 1998.

in 1998 (or there abouts) the dividends were switched from going to the state, to reinvestment in the railroad.

[kermit]

for posterity's sake I'll provide a link to an interesting article which describes Norfolk Southern's intransigence in the negotiations on the NC Passenger Rail improvements funding. There was quite a bit of behind the scenes political arm twisting.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/04/04/2195869/how-nc-train-deal-was-nearly-derailed.html

I was surprised by this statement:

"We don't get any benefit from this," said John V. Edwards, Norfolk Southern's passenger policy director. "For us, it was all a question of management of risk."

I guess the take away from this is NS does not foresee a significant increase in freight shipments through the state (or its just a bluff).

[John Thacker]

Interesting article. Always hard to know who was bluffing or not in the negotiations. Interesting demonstration of the power of the purse as well.

Another takeaway is that the threats by the new Congress to take away the money if not signed also helped drive the negotiations and the sense of urgency.

Today was the deadline for submitting applications for the $2.4B. I'd assume that NCDOT simply updated the previous application and is asking for everything in the previous 5th Frequency and the SEHSR application, but haven't seen anything official.

[mallguy]

I also find it odd that NS claimed no benefit from the projects but can see where it's coming from for some points:

(1) double-tracking = more track maintenance expenses

(2) fewer curves are irrelevant because freight trains travel at low speeds, perhaps

(3) bridges replacing grade crossings- can't figure why there's no benefit there- surely avoiding accidents is a good thing

The biggest impediments I see to NS are more, faster passenger trains taking up track capacity from freight trains (which should be partially alleviated by the double-tracking) and financial penalties for passenger trains being late.

NS should be allowed to bid to operate Amtrak passenger trains (at a subsidy)- if it could also make some money operating passenger trains, its interests would be more aligned with expansion of passenger service, which is now just an obstacle to its freight business.

[kermit]

I also find it odd that NS claimed no benefit from the projects but can see where it's coming from for some points:

(1) double-tracking = more track maintenance expenses

This issue seems to be one of the core concerns in the debate. Can anyone speak to how NCRR handles maintenance of the route? Is it all NS's responsibility? Will they also have responsibility for the new double track?

EDIT: I would think that the new NS intermodal yard at the airport would place greater time constraints on their intermodal service -- thus they would accrue substantial benefits from the double track (mostly due to reduced delays thanks to the redundant track)

Edited April 4, 2011 by kermit

[mallguy]

I looked at the NCRR website and annual report. For FY 2009 the NCRR spent $294k on maintenance. (That's less than $1,000 a mile, which is only a tiny fraction of what Class I railroads spend, measured per mile.) It doesn't appear to have anyone in its management team who is in charge of maintenance. (Nor does it have management to handle most things that operating railroads usually have- it seem like it just buys and owns its assets but doesn't do much else.)

Thus I'd guess that Norfolk Southern handles most maintenance.

[New Name]

EDIT: I would think that the new NS intermodal yard at the airport would place greater time constraints on their intermodal service -- thus they would accrue substantial benefits from the double track (mostly due to reduced delays thanks to the redundant track)

Speaking of that... I drove around the part of CLT the other day and way quite surprised to see no real signs of work being done on tracks. Looks like all the bridges, roads are done - there are about 1000 brand new 10' trees lining the roadways (mile after mile of them!) - odd to think of this being a beautiful tree-lined parkway, but... no rails under the bridges..., no dirt moving.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

NCDOT wants $624M more federal rail money -- not $461M less - The News & Observer

"North Carolina would use the new funds to:

- replace outmoded train stations in Charlotte and Raleigh,

- build new ones in Hillsborough and Lexington,

- add more freight and passenger service between Raleigh and Charlotte,

- complete the environmental studies and purchase an abandoned CSX rail corridor for a new high-speed shortcut from Raleigh to Richmond, for trains that would travel at speeds up to 110mph,

- and make rail safety improvements between Raleigh and Charlotte."

And yes, this is the re-allocated money from Florida and everywhere else.

Edited April 5, 2011 by cowboy_wilhelm

[kermit]

^ Thanks for the link!

If I am reading the prioritized list correctly the second item is adding wifi to the cars used on the Piedmont. This will be a significant upgrade and allow me to ride more frequently (although since I am departing from Charlotte I mostly end up on the Carolinian )

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/sites/drupalblogs.newsobserver.com/files/docs/NCDOT-%20Prioritized%20Capital%20Plan%20April%204%202011%20Final%20xls.pdf

Charlotte Gateway station money is not until items six and seven (not whining, just observing)

The next items after the (stage 1) Gateway station construction funds appears to be significant double tracking between Durham and Raleigh. (commuter rail anyone?)

[orulz]

I estimate that the feds will split about $2 billion of the $2.4 billion between the Northeast Corridor and California. That basically leaves NC to compete with the rest of the country for about $400 million.

The items at the top of the list ("Phase I" and "Phase II") ask for a total of $27 million in federal funding. This is probably at the top of the list so that the feds still have a way to throw NC a "bone" even if most of the money goes to California and the NEC.

The first big-dollar project ("Phase III" on the spreadsheet) focuses on getting trains to downtown Charlotte. It calls for a $225 million federal contribution. It is possible, though unlikely, that NC will get the money it requests in order to build Gateway Station, since this is a very visible and important project.

I would place NC's chances of getting money for anything beyond "Phase III" at precisely nil.

Also buried in the spreadsheet is the answer to what NC will do with the PRIIA money awarded last year: build the grade separation at Sugar Creek Road. We had been guessing that it might be either the ACWR relocation or the new maintenance facility.

[New Name]

^Proj. 29 (the first listed under Phase III) is the separation of 36th St. Before now, that project was to be funded under direction from CATS (NCRR/SEHSR etc. would direct funding for Sugar Creek separation, allowing the two parties to piggyback on each other's projects). If 36th St. is now directed for funding through HSR grants, it seems CATS would have saved a LOT of money in the budget for the BLE. Right?

[orulz]

^Proj. 29 (the first listed under Phase III) is the separation of 36th St. Before now, that project was to be funded under direction from CATS (NCRR/SEHSR etc. would direct funding for Sugar Creek separation, allowing the two parties to piggyback on each other's projects). If 36th St. is now directed for funding through HSR grants, it seems CATS would have saved a LOT of money in the budget for the BLE. Right?

Seems like that is correct, but then again the 36th street grade separation is only $40 million out of the roughly $1 billion BLE project.

[burt]

Virginia is NOT applying for High Speed Rail funds.

From today's Richmond Times Dispatch:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/apr/06/1/virginia-not-applying-for-federal-funds-for-high-s-ar-954324/

[kermit]

Pshew!

Republicans in the N.C. General Assembly will drop their opposition to accepting $545 million in federal money for high-speed rail projects, state Sen. Bob Rucho told Charlotte business leaders Friday.

But future funding is still in question

He cautioned that other federal rail money may not be feasible. An additional $2.3 billion in potential projects to be awarded by Washington could require as much as 25% in matching money, Rucho said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2011/04/gop-says-yes-to-rail-money.html

[mallguy]

Thank goodness but this was too close for comfort. I am a Republican, very active in Republican politics. Grassroots Republicans are pretty favorable towards transit and rail programs; perhaps somewhat less so than Democrats, but sometimes even moreso than Democrats (see polling data from the Charlotte transit tax referendum, and plenty of Gallup polls).

Grassroots Republicans cannot allow the GOP to be led by anti-rail people; the Ric Killians of the world do not represent Republican voters, at least on rail issues. (His website just screams "Roads First!" and whatever arguments he came up with to oppose rail programs are just cover for his anti-rail views.) Republican leadership needs to match the viewpoints of Republican voters.

[Sabaidee]

I'm glad that Ric Killian's plan won't go through, but how is this grant a surprise? The proposal has been out for years now and the grant announcement was revealed months ago. Now I'm not too sure on the Republican idea requiring the General Assembly's permission to accept the any future grants. It could go either way and depends on who's in charge of the governorship, like Florida, the governor rejected rail grants but the state legislature wanted it and lawsuits were filed.

[Otto]

I'm glad that Ric Killian's plan won't go through, but how is this grant a surprise? The proposal has been out for years now and the grant announcement was revealed months ago. Now I'm not too sure on the Republican idea requiring the General Assembly's permission to accept the any future grants. It could go either way and depends on who's in charge of the governorship, like Florida, the governor rejected rail grants but the state legislature wanted it and lawsuits were filed.

There is no way that the legislature was surprised by the grant. FRA announced that NC received $545 on January 28, 2010. They may have been surprised that NCDOT, the railroads, and the Feds were able to get the agreements signed. .. Killian is very short-sighted and uninformed when it comes to rail operations, road planning, and transportation funding. The rail projects that NCDOT is doing are actually adding the capacity that Norfolk Southern needs for their Crescent Corridor (http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/crescent-corridor/) to be successful.

No region, more than Mecklenburg cries about transportation funding. They are about to receive over $350M for I-85 and I-485. The completion of these large highway projects still will not solve Charlotte's congestion issues. I-85 is projected to carry 180K vehicles per day north of I-485 in Cabarrus by 2035....and there will be no room to add capacity. We can't pave our way out of congestion. A multi-modal transportation system and well planned growth is the solution. The government must maintain and augment our existing road network and invest in efficient transportation modes. Our state level transportation policy makers must do better at prioritizing road projects...balancing maintenance with new construction. Large municipalities like Charlotte should be investing in well-planned mass transit and insuring that land-use augments the the road network, the inter-city rail transportation, and mass transit.

We as the individual must make better decisions when it comes to how and where we live and how we choose to get from point A to point B. We have to choose to adjust our lifestyle. We may have to choose between adding 20 minutes to our trip versus spending $70 to fill our tanks.

[Otto]

I also find it odd that NS claimed no benefit from the projects but can see where it's coming from for some points:

(1) double-tracking = more track maintenance expenses

(2) fewer curves are irrelevant because freight trains travel at low speeds, perhaps

(3) bridges replacing grade crossings- can't figure why there's no benefit there- surely avoiding accidents is a good thing

The biggest impediments I see to NS are more, faster passenger trains taking up track capacity from freight trains (which should be partially alleviated by the double-tracking) and financial penalties for passenger trains being late.

NS should be allowed to bid to operate Amtrak passenger trains (at a subsidy)- if it could also make some money operating passenger trains, its interests would be more aligned with expansion of passenger service, which is now just an obstacle to its freight business.

I totally disagree with that claim of no benefits by Norfolk Southern. NS' Crescent Corridor Plan (http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/crescent-corridor/) is seeking private-public partnership from the states that the corridor goes through NC is one of them. The whole purpose of the corridor plan is to make rail freight more competitive between the southeast and the Northeast. In order to do this, NS must have the capacity. These projects do this for them. The argument that more track=more maintenance costs may be valid. But, running more trains on the single track segments also means more wear and tear on the existing tracks...thus more maintenance. NS does not have the capital to add the capacity to make the corridor competitive. They were seeking public investment on the sole argument that they are removing trucks off of the road...which they may well do...and they have received substantial amounts of public $$.

[mallguy]

I also am doubtful that NS would receive absolutely no benefits from the NC HSR work, but the upgrades that it seems to want for the Crescent Corridor seem to be geared for intermodal trains- higher tunnel clearances and new intermodal yards. I couldn't tell from the Wikipedia article or Crescent Corridor website what specific trackwork NS wants for that. Perhaps NS doesn't need the types of projects that the HSR will do, and perhaps more passenger trains will interfere with its intermodal and other freight trains- since a fast passenger train can absorb a significant amount of track capacity (imagine a Ferrari wanting to speed along a road on which there are tons of tractor trailers, if the Ferrari is to have priority).

I also see that yesterday's Piedmont leaving Charlotte mid-day had 5 cars- surely a good sign of good business on the train, unless the extra cars were just an equipment move.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Not in the clear yet.

House Republican budget plan would handcuff rail grants - News & Observer

"Rep. Ric Killian, a Mecklenburg County Republican who had pulled his kill bill from the House Transportation Committee agenda last week, said Thursday that the committee would resume debate on his proposal next week. 'That bill is still alive and well, and it is going to be heard in some way, shape or form next Tuesday,' Killian said at a meeting of the House Appropriations Transportation Subcommittee, which is debating the transportation section of the House budget plan."

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Republicans help pro-rail Democrats win skirmish with train foes - News & Observer

The title is a bit mis-leading, though. "The committee voted 17-15 to weaken Killian's bill, and then approved language that only requires DOT to consult the legislature before accepting rail grants." Plus, there's a transportation budget vote tomorrow, April 20.

[orulz]

Killian's provision made it back into the transportation budget. If I'm reading the article right, it also redirects $700 million of road funds away from the equity formula, giving the DOT more control on where it's spent (ie where it's needed, in order to address maintenance and congestion, rather than building freeways to nowhere.)

[mallguy]

Ric Killian needs to be targeted by Republicans to get a primary opponent in the next election cycle. I assume that he has a safe GOP seat, so he needs to be removed via primary.

[kermit]

Ric Killian needs to be targeted by Republicans to get a primary opponent in the next election cycle. I assume that he has a safe GOP seat, so he needs to be removed via primary.

I believe he ran unopposed in the last election.

From http://www.heraldsun...=homesecondleft

Killian himself has secured three terms in the House without ever having to subject his opinions to voter scrutiny. Local GOP leaders added him to the ballot, for an uncontested seat, late in the 2006 campaign to replace an incumbent who'd dropped out. And Democrats didn't bother running anyone against him in 2008 or 2010.

The same article points out that his district voted 66% to 34% against repeal of the Charlotte transit sales tax in 2007 (in other words 2/3 of his district's voters were pro-transit in 2007).

Edited April 24, 2011 by kermit

[mallguy]

I believe he ran unopposed in the last election.

From http://www.heraldsun...=homesecondleft

The same article points out that his district voted 66 to 34 against repeal of the Charlotte transit sales tax in 2007 (in other words 2/3 of his district's voters were pro-transit in 2007).

Another Republican really needs to step up to the plate and primary him out of his seat. Shouldn't be hard to do; at the local level, regular people can run and win.