North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[kermit]

Some of the Florida money is beginning to find a home:

About $186 million in federal funding that Florida turned down for high-speed passenger rail has been awarded to Illinois for improvements on part of the 110 mph corridor between Chicago and St. Louis, officials announced today.

http://www.chicagotr...0,4302117.story

EDIT: It now appears that DOT will announce the remainder of the reallocations "next week"

http://www.nasdaq.co...sport-secretary

EDIT 2: "next week" will be Monday. Ray Lahood will make announcements in New York and Detroit:

http://www.freep.com/article/20110506/NEWS06/110506042/Federal-money-high-speed-Detroit-Chicago-rail-expected-announced-Monday

Edited May 6, 2011 by kermit

[kermit]

for posterity's sake I'll provide a link to an interesting article which describes Norfolk Southern's intransigence in the negotiations on the NC Passenger Rail improvements funding. There was quite a bit of behind the scenes political arm twisting.

http://www.charlotte...y-derailed.html

I was surprised by this statement:

I guess the take away from this is NS does not foresee a significant increase in freight shipments through the state (or its just a bluff).

Very interesting article in Crain's Chicago Business on the benefits to Union Pacific from Illinois investments in higher speed pax rail. It asks about the benefits of track improvements to the Class I RRs :

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/section/blogs?blogID=greg-hinz&plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&uid=1daca073-2eab-468e-9f19-ec177090a35c&plckPostId=Blog%3a1daca073-2eab-468e-9f19-ec177090a35cPost%3ab9a30cff-5726-45f5-8d71-5cfd1357ffd2&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Omaha-based Union Pacific Corp., which is paying next to nothing to effectively get a brand-new main line from Chicago to Springfield.

UP's spokesman insists the railroad is getting little or nothing out of this.

"The project itself is a state project," he says. "Our capacity on that line now is fine.

The article suggests that the freight RRs are getting much more benefit from these projects than they are suggesting to the public.

[mallguy]

Thanks for sharing the article. I found the facts in it very interesting. I also unfortunately see the author as biased- the new tracks aren't just UP's to use. A passenger train traveling at a higher speed than a freight train takes up way way way more track capacity than another train traveling at the same speed as the freight train would, so with multiple new faster passenger trains sharing the line with UP's freights, a large part of the track capacity is now going to be unusable for UP. (Particularly the single-track portions may have less capacity for UP's freight trains than before.)

Plus, yes, UP made $2.6B last year but it's a gargantuan railroad. The author of the article should be looking at UP's profits per dollar of capital or the like- if it earns just a penny or a few cents per invested dollar, then it's not rolling in cash.

[kermit]

Thanks for sharing the article. I found the facts in it very interesting. I also unfortunately see the author as biased- the new tracks aren't just UP's to use. A passenger train traveling at a higher speed than a freight train takes up way way way more track capacity than another train traveling at the same speed as the freight train would, so with multiple new faster passenger trains sharing the line with UP's freights, a large part of the track capacity is now going to be unusable for UP. (Particularly the single-track portions may have less capacity for UP's freight trains than before.)

Plus, yes, UP made $2.6B last year but it's a gargantuan railroad. The author of the article should be looking at UP's profits per dollar of capital or the like- if it earns just a penny or a few cents per invested dollar, then it's not rolling in cash.

I do agree that the article was only presenting one side (they didn't get much info from UP). However I think the capacity issue is being overplayed in North Carolina (I don't know enough about Illinois to speak to the specifics of that situation). In NC the ARRA funds are essentially paying for the addition of a second track from CLT to Greensboro (among other things). This represents (roughly) a doubling of capacity (an 'extra' 24 hours of track time per day).The short term plans are for 12 passenger trains per day (6 in each direction). I am no rail dispatcher but if we assume that 1 hour of track time is allocated to each of these trains (say 45 minutes in front and 15 minutes behind) then passenger rail has only consumed half of the new capacity (probably even less with improved signaling). It looks to me like Norfolk Southern is getting an additional 12 hours of capacity on its mainline for free. I think we are a long way from any reductions in freight capacity.

[mallguy]

I hunted around on the Internet for an article I saw a few years ago about railroad track capacity; it's not an issue of just a particular time at which a train goes by, but a passenger train can reduce capacity all along a line since freight trains have to get out of the way; there are all sorts of issues of juggling the two types of trains.

Union Pacific and Norfolk Southern never asked for HSR improvements, as far as I know, which speaks to their desirability from a freight railroad perspective. Both had been pushing for track improvements around Chicago (for UP) and for various freight corridors (for NS), though. Plus freight railroads are already claiming that Amtrak doesn't pay its full costs on their lines.

I am supportive of HSR improvements; I just think that Obama, perhaps due to his ideology, doesn't give full credit to the fact that freight railroads are private businesses with private property rights much like those of any other type of business.

Edited May 7, 2011 by mallguy

[kermit]

My clumsy '45 minutes ahead, 15 minutes behind' thing was an effort to measure the operational complexities of accommodating higher speed rail on freight tracks. The times can be easily converted into distances if you assume a steady speed.

So if we assume that NS does not dispatch a freight that is closer than 60 miles (45 minutes at 79mph) in front of the pax train (or closer than 20 miles (15 minutes) behind) then we have about 12 hours of track capacity per day consumed by 6 north bound and 6 south bound passenger trains. Since these are nothing more than wild estimates on my part I am happy to be corrected. If these numbers are in the ballpark then passenger service should add up to half of the new capacity being added to the CLT - Greensboro route.

So NS gains (roughly) 25% more track capacity on its mainline (which will be used for 'fast freight' as part of the NS Crescent Corridor project) plus reduced liability from improved / eliminated at grade crossings in return for some dispatching priority for passenger rail -- seems more than fair to me.

I do agree that private property rights may be getting discounted in some corridors such as the UP route in Illinois. However I think its an entirely different story along the NCRR. Since NS leases the tracks from the NCRR, and one of the lease terms is that NS must accommodate (some) passenger rail on these tracks I would dismiss concerns about property rights (and capacity) on the CLT - RGH route as partisan rhetoric (I am looking at you rick killian). Of course this assumes that NCDOT does not exceed the number of passenger trains discussed in the NS lease agreement -- I don't know how that term was written.

Edited May 8, 2011 by kermit

[kermit]

It appears NC only got item 1 on the requested funding list for the reallocated FLA money:

$4 million for environmental analysis on the Richmond to Raleigh section of the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor (SEHSR)

http://www.fra.dot.g...DOT_57-11.shtml

looks like our new legislature got its wish (to cut off new rail funding) after all.

Bummer. Gateway station in Charlotte and wifi on the trans seemed pretty critical to me.

Edited May 9, 2011 by kermit

[kermit]

Having recently ridden both the Downeaaster (portland to boston) and the pennsylvanian (Philadelphia to Pittsburgh) i learned a few things about the future of NC pax rail.

The first is that NC should attempt to optimize the schedule of the Piedmont to better accomodate commuting. I was very surprised by the number of passengers on the Downeaster who regularly travel from Maine to Boston for work (a two plus hour trip). Some were daily commuters while others were the once or twice a week variety. The downeaster schedule generally offers two morning trains (5 and 7 am I think) and two afternoon rush hour trains (5 and 5:40 I think). This schedule was augmented by a midday train and a late night train. Free wifi on the downeaster also made a big difference in the quality of the experience.

The second lesson was the role of major league baseball in driving ridership on both of these lines. Redsox and Pirates (vs Philadelphia) filled both trains to capacity (and generated substantial beer sales, even at 8am -- go bosox!) While I am not a supporter of MLB in Charlotte (I am more of a minor league guy) I suspect that the presence of 80 MLB home games a.year in downtown Charlotte would be a significant boon to ridership (the bobcats being the bobcats and the Panthers only playing 9 home games limits those opportunities). While I would be willing to ride from CLT to RGH to see the canes ocasionally I am not willing to schlep out to RBC and back from downtown. Anyway my experience was that events like MLB contribute a great deal more to ridership than I had imagined.

Finally the power of high frequency service is also not to be underestimated. Philadelphia to Harrisburg has 10+ trains per day for the two hour ride to tiny Harrisburg, aparently the route does pretty well despite Harrisburg's small size.

OK done with rambleing.

[ERJ170]

While I believe the Piedmont is doing a good job as is, optimization does sound like a sound plan. That will probably be worked out more as more frequencies get added (Morning, Morning, Midday, Evening, Evening).

Some things I think might be able to help is to slightly change up the consist. If the train is to pay for itself, it needs to take advice from Allegiant Airlines. I believe the consist could work if it is the following..

Engine - Business Class/Coach Class - Sundry/Dining - Coach Class - Coach Class

By adding a Sundry/Dining car, you can now make a profit by charging for things like t-shirts, medicines, snacks, magazines, newspapers, kid packs, train memorabilia, and possibly even Canes/UNC/Bobcat/State/etc paraphernalia. Mark up the price about 150% and there you go.

Second, a stop in RTP could only help for commuters. This lack of stop is really hurting the biggest unserved destination for the Raleigh-Durham area.

Lastly, I am still VERY adamant in thinking at least one of the Piedmont's should go all the way to the beach. It could pick up a LOT of traffic from Amtrak that head to the beach or to the coast. I know I personally would use rail more if it actually went to New Bern. I know the study they did was for how many NC people would use it and it was determined not a lot. But there is a lot of traffic that utilize NC beach and VFR traffic to eastern NC.

Just a thought..

[New Name]

^^ Boston and Philly (and Pittsburgh to an extent) have extensive subway/light rail systems. I feel like there is no way a regional train would work unless there is a way to get around once you get to your destination city. I think people would rather drive than change modes from train to taxi etc.

[mallguy]

Making the Piedmont have schedules that work for commuters is a very good idea. Same for the beach, in season.

(Railroad dining/cafe cars usually lose tons of money, for whatever reason.

The Piedmont should have business/first class- the only trains that don't seem to are commuter RRs, which just focus on moving tons of people, and for some reason the Keystone.

[kermit]

^^ Boston and Philly (and Pittsburgh to an extent) have extensive subway/light rail systems. I feel like there is no way a regional train would work unless there is a way to get around once you get to your destination city. I think people would rather drive than change modes from train to taxi etc.

Agree completely. I didn't intend to put Charlotte on the same level of urbanism as Boston and Philadelphia (or even Pittsburgh). Its clear that the last mile issue needs to be in place before regional rail like the Downeaster (or the Piedmont) can flourish -- and I kinda unintentionally acknowledged that when I said that I was unlikely to ride to Raleigh to see the hurricanes due to poor access to RBC for non-drivers.

But this is another one of those tricky 'cart-horse' urban development issues -- both elements need to be in place and one of them has to go first. We are lucky to have both transit and regional rail in place, if we can just get 1) transit and regional rail connected, 2) more frequencies on the regional rail and 3) expansion of local transit in Charlotte (and ultimately in the Triangle and Triad) coupled with landuse changes to encourage the concentration of employment then we can begin to stitch together a useful rail network that is capable of carrying significant numbers of commuters and visitors. We do have one advantage over the Downeaster service from Portland to Boston, we can have relatively balanced demand on the Piedmont thanks to three relatively large urban centers on the route -- unbalanced loads will always impact ridership in northern New England.

[Otto]

Having recently ridden both the Downeaaster (portland to boston) and the pennsylvanian (Philadelphia to Pittsburgh) i learned a few things about the future of NC pax rail.

The first is that NC should attempt to optimize the schedule of the Piedmont to better accomodate commuting. I was very surprised by the number of passengers on the Downeaster who regularly travel from Maine to Boston for work (a two plus hour trip). Some were daily commuters while others were the once or twice a week variety. The downeaster schedule generally offers two morning trains (5 and 7 am I think) and two afternoon rush hour trains (5 and 5:40 I think). This schedule was augmented by a midday train and a late night train. Free wifi on the downeaster also made a big difference in the quality of the experience.

The second lesson was the role of major league baseball in driving ridership on both of these lines. Redsox and Pirates (vs Philadelphia) filled both trains to capacity (and generated substantial beer sales, even at 8am -- go bosox!) While I am not a supporter of MLB in Charlotte (I am more of a minor league guy) I suspect that the presence of 80 MLB home games a.year in downtown Charlotte would be a significant boon to ridership (the bobcats being the bobcats and the Panthers only playing 9 home games limits those opportunities). While I would be willing to ride from CLT to RGH to see the canes ocasionally I am not willing to schlep out to RBC and back from downtown. Anyway my experience was that events like MLB contribute a great deal more to ridership than I had imagined.

Finally the power of high frequency service is also not to be underestimated. Philadelphia to Harrisburg has 10+ trains per day for the two hour ride to tiny Harrisburg, aparently the route does pretty well despite Harrisburg's small size.

OK done with rambleing.

Please note, that the $545M that NCDOT got in 2010 also includes funding for the equipment and operation of two additional Raleigh to Charlotte round trips. Part of the agreement with NS and NCRR is that the capacity adding projects (Charlotte to Concord, Kannapolis to Salisbury, Lexington to Thomasville, Graham to Haw River, and S. Durham to Morrisville) need to be in place before the service begins.

[mallguy]

I took the midday Piedmont this weekend. It was a good train- pretty fast and comfortable.

The Charlotte station is a total turn-off- a dump in a bad area. To solve the "last mile" problem, the Gold Rush shuttle uptown could just make a quick jaunt up N. Tryon to meet arriving and departing trains, or some other type of shuttle could be done. Isn't there one in Winston-Salem?

Curious to see if there is income/age/occupation info for Piedmont passengers- it was a weekend when I took it and it seemed to be a low to middle income crowd.

[orulz]

It's been almost a year (11 months actually) since the public meetings on the EIS for the high speed rail line from Richmond to Raleigh, and in the interim the silence from official sources has been deafening. There were a lot of concerns raised and there has been essentially nothing public released about how those concerns will be addressed. There was a bit of a flurry about the route through downtown Raleigh and other issues such as crossing closings elsewhere, but there has been basically nothing from the agency in the media since July last year.

This can be interpereted a number of ways:

(1) They are slowing down the process now that we know no additional federal HSR money will be available in the near term

(2) They are trying to keep a low profile to minimize controversey

(3) They are being stumped or stymied in their plans by all the local concerns and are struggling to come up with responses that will address them without blowing the budget.

The ARRA-funded track improvements also seem to be slow to get off the ground. I guess the ARRA required them to turn dirt by September 2012 so it's not likely this will get off the ground much before then.

[kermit]

Since NCDOT is now prohibited (with the passage of the new state budget) from accepting most federal grants for passenger rail without legislative approval it becomes more important that our existing assets (including the recent federal grants) be used to show North Carolinian's the value of passenger rail. Without more substantial voter buy in I fear that future federal grants (such as necessary for the purchase and refurb of the Raleigh-Richmond corridor) are unlikely.

While I don't feel that it is appropriate for the legislature to micromanage cabinet level decisions I do feel strongly that rail (as a mode) not be singled out for special treatment. IMO logic demands that similar requirements for spending approval be placed on the other modes of transportation. On the bright side, requiring legislative approval on every new road project would significantly reduce coastal plain featherbidding.

[staffer]

I had a site visit this morning to the proposed H line Amtrak station for Raleigh. http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/29/1309639/dillon-supply-building-could-become.html proposed two station tracks with center island high platform for easy boarding. All existing RGH AMTRAK trains would be served, plus would be commuter rail staion for proposed Garner to Durham commuter line. Cost of adaptive reuse of 1960 Old Dillon Supply fabricating building, two station tracks, platform and patrking $20m. Raleuigh city bond issue on October ballot would include $3m for this project. Other example of NC adaptive reuse for AMTRAK is the Durham station which was old warehouse

Edited June 29, 2011 by staffer

[orulz]

Since NCDOT is now prohibited (with the passage of the new state budget) from accepting most federal grants for passenger rail without legislative approval it becomes more important that our existing assets (including the recent federal grants) be used to show North Carolinian's the value of passenger rail. Without more substantial voter buy in I fear that future federal grants (such as necessary for the purchase and refurb of the Raleigh-Richmond corridor) are unlikely.

While I don't feel that it is appropriate for the legislature to micromanage cabinet level decisions I do feel strongly that rail (as a mode) not be singled out for special treatment. IMO logic demands that similar requirements for spending approval be placed on the other modes of transportation. On the bright side, requiring legislative approval on every new road project would significantly reduce coastal plain featherbidding.

IMO perhaps the greatest hope for continuing to develop passenger rail and transit in spite of the above law, rides with Pat McCrory being elected as governor in 2012.

First, if McCrory gets elected this will likely remove passenger rail and transit from its current status as a partisan political football. He even stuck his neck out and played a big role in getting the GOP to put the Charlotte's Light Rail line back into the recently passed state budget. McCrory is clearly a supporter of transit and passenger rail; even if the state senate and house remain in GOP control, he might be able to talk some sense into them and get the law repealed.

Even if the law is not repealed, McCrory might be able to work and convince Republicans to approve any state matching funds.

Unfortunately there are other reasons to not like McCrory, but if he wins at least we might see the state take a more sane stance on transit.

[kdub1]

Since NCDOT is now prohibited (with the passage of the new state budget) from accepting most federal grants for passenger rail without legislative approval it becomes more important that our existing assets (including the recent federal grants) be used to show North Carolinian's the value of passenger rail. Without more substantial voter buy in I fear that future federal grants (such as necessary for the purchase and refurb of the Raleigh-Richmond corridor) are unlikely.

While I don't feel that it is appropriate for the legislature to micromanage cabinet level decisions I do feel strongly that rail (as a mode) not be singled out for special treatment. IMO logic demands that similar requirements for spending approval be placed on the other modes of transportation. On the bright side, requiring legislative approval on every new road project would significantly reduce coastal plain featherbidding.

The anti-rail move is something that the JLF would like given the outlook of the General Assembly in the years to come. If the group can get in the ear of enough pols, the roads-only group could have a lot of sway that could make the NCDOT Rail Division look just like Oregon's. The Beaver State once had one of the nation's best rail departments just like this state but politics got in the way.

[New Name]

I'm headed up to Richmond next month. I was really looking forward to taking the train - but when I realized it was going to cost $100, and take 9 hours, I looked for an alternative: Megabus. $12, 5 hours. How can I ever justify taking the train - because I really do want to do this.

[orulz]

Charlotte to Richmond (Staples Mill Road) is a 7 hour, $45 trip.

Raleigh to Richmond (Again, Staples Mill Road) is a 3.5 hour, $31 trip.

However, if you're talking about riding to Main Street Station from anywhere in North Carolina, that adds 3 hours onto the trip since you have to transfer at Staples Mill, wait 2.5 hours, and catch a train 30 minutes back to Main Street. Under no circumstances that I can fathom would that ever make sense.

It won't make sense to ride from NC to downtown Richmond, VA until the S-line is rebuilt. That will cut perhaps two hours off the trip from Raleigh to Richmond, AND allow NC trains to directly access Main Street Station.

[mallguy]

I'm headed up to Richmond next month. I was really looking forward to taking the train - but when I realized it was going to cost $100, and take 9 hours, I looked for an alternative: Megabus. $12, 5 hours. How can I ever justify taking the train - because I really do want to do this.

(1) The train is way way more comfortable- larger seats and room to walk around (plus cafe car).

(2) Amtrak Guest Rewards points

[cowboy_wilhelm]

NCDOT and Durham christen #1869 "City of Durham"

One of three locomotives purchased through ARRA funding for the Piedmont service.

[ERJ170]

Will there be another City of Raleigh? and, might I say, there should be a City of New Bern and City of Edenton to cover all the NC capitals..

Hmm.. wonder if the NCDOT would allow a public-private venture do a Morehead-Raleigh and Greenville-Raleigh run.. say 2-3 times daily each?

Edited August 6, 2011 by ERJ170

[mallguy]

Hmm.. wonder if the NCDOT would allow a public-private venture do a Morehead-Raleigh and Greenville-Raleigh run.. say 2-3 times daily each?

Agreed. I'll give credit to the NCDOT- the Piedmont trains are nice trains that are pretty speedy- but the railfan and the Republican in me would definitely like to see Norfolk Southern or another private operator run the trains.

Is the new locomotive one that was bought from GO Transit in Ontario?