North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[orulz]

I saw some people out today doing what looked like surveying for the Hopson Road grade separation. Hopefully I'm right. Glad to see this project is finally (maybe) getting under way.

[kermit]

This week's Charlotte Business Journal has a blurb in the TableTalk section (which I don't believe is available online) that says our esteemed house speaker Thom Tillis:

wants to sell the NCRR and figures he can get $200 million in the deal

This price appears to be ridiculously low to me, particularly in light of the $461 million in federally funded improvements.

his rationale appears to be solely:

Why should the state be in the business when no other state us in that business?

This shows (at least) two things that reflect poorly on our esteemed house speaker. First that he is entirely ignorant of the historical conditions which led to the state constructing its own RR (no private company was willing to pay to connect NC's cities). Second, he is just wrong, the state of Alaska owns the Alaska RR (for similar geographic and social reasons as the NCRR) and I believe that their are other state run RRs out there. While this may be nitpicky, I really want the guy proposing the sale of a significant state asset to have the facts correct.

EDIT: A quick google reveals state owned railroads currently operating in Maine and Vermont (in addition to Alaska)

http://bangordailyne...rks-state-says/

http://www.railvermo...-companies.html

The city of New Orleans owns its public belt RR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Public_Belt_Railroad

Edited August 22, 2011 by kermit

[mallguy]

Source for the statement that the NCRR was built because private railroads wouldn't build it please? In the 1800s, many more lines than currently exist were built, and South Carolina, Virginia and other states were covered with rail lines. Why would private railroads build lines all over those states but not North Carolina? And if Norfolk Southern were willing to buy the NCRR now, what would it matter if a private railroad wasn't willing to own it 163 years ago?

[kermit]

Source for the statement that the NCRR was built because private railroads wouldn't build it please? In the 1800s, many more lines than currently exist were built, and South Carolina, Virginia and other states were covered with rail lines. Why would private railroads build lines all over those states but not North Carolina? And if Norfolk Southern were willing to buy the NCRR now, what would it matter if a private railroad wasn't willing to own it 163 years ago?

Sorry I should have been more specific. The early history of NC Railroads is fascinating and features a great deal of subsidies paid by the state to construct the first N-S routes such as the Wilmington and Weldon and other N-S routes though the state. While private companies did see the promise of carrying goods from SE ports into the northeast through NC, this routing did nothing to connect NC's Piedmont to its ports. No private company saw the possibility of revenue from tieing NC together -- a situation which severely limited agricultural earnings and retarded industrial development.

The legislature of the era recognized the long term economic importance of linking together NC from East to West (Morehead city to Charlotte) and voted to construct the RR on their own. The story is told in great detail in this book: http://nc-historical...o.net/3000.html You can find bits and pieces online, this source has some of the story http://www.northcaro...pedia/34/entry/ Its certainly possible that eventually a private company would have paid for the East-West route eventually, however the legislature felt that a substantial delay in the completion of the route would have placed the state further behind its already wealthy neighbors.

And you are of course correct, the history of the line has no bearing on the propriety of a sale today. However, history provides us with an interesting lesson. The people of NC took a huge risk to build the line in the 1850s, we have benefited hugely from the line in the period since. Its is arguable that passenger rail linking the Piedmont may have similar transformative effects on our state. Since it appears unlikely that a private owner of the NCRR would support early efforts to establish this service (just as they were unwilling to build track in the 19th century) it would be a shame for us ignore the lesson of history and give away this option for a measly $200 million. Tillis' apparent ignorance of this history tells me that he lacks a solid understanding of the long-term value of the NCRR to the people of NC.

Other citations:

http://www.getcited.org/pub/102890066

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n57715k734723455/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1540-6237.8403015/full

Edited August 22, 2011 by kermit

[mallguy]

Sorry I should have been more specific. The early history of NC Railroads is fascinating and features a great deal of subsidies paid by the state to construct the first N-S routes such as the Wilmington and Weldon and other N-S routes though the state. While private companies did see the promise of carrying goods from SE ports into the northeast through NC, this routing did nothing to connect NC's Piedmont to its ports. No private company saw the possibility of revenue from tieing NC together -- a situation which severely limited agricultural earnings and retarded industrial development.

The legislature of the era recognized the long term economic importance of linking together NC from East to West (Morehead city to Charlotte) and voted to construct the RR on their own. The story is told in great detail in this book: http://nc-historical...o.net/3000.html You can find bits and pieces online, this source has some of the story http://www.northcaro...pedia/34/entry/ Its certainly possible that eventually a private company would have paid for the East-West route eventually, however the legislature felt that a substantial delay in the completion of the route would have placed the state further behind its already wealthy neighbors.

And you are of course correct, the history of the line has no bearing on the propriety of a sale today. However, history provides us with an interesting lesson. The people of NC took a huge risk to build the line in the 1850s, we have benefited hugely from the line in the period since. Its is arguable that passenger rail linking the Piedmont may have similar transformative effects on our state. Since it appears unlikely that a private owner of the NCRR would support early efforts to establish this service (just as they were unwilling to build track in the 19th century) it would be a shame for us ignore the lesson of history and give away this option for a measly $200 million. Tillis' apparent ignorance of this history tells me that he lacks a solid understanding of the long-term value of the NCRR to the people of NC.

Other citations:

http://www.getcited.org/pub/102890066

http://www.springerl...7715k734723455/

http://onlinelibrary...37.8403015/full

Thanks. Your post is one of the best thought-out and best-researched ones that I've seen on this board.

Hopefully Thom Tillis would want way more than $200MM for the NCRR and would sell it subject to unlimited rights to run passenger trains on it, if the sale takes place.

Interestingly, even in the '60s, the Southern Railway didn't run many east-west trains across the state (like today's Piedmonts). Odd that it didn't, but that helps your point.

[kermit]

The Business Journal reports that the new Cary station will open Tomorrow

http://www.bizjourna...du&ana=e_du_pap

(as a non-meaningful aside its interesting they choose a photo of the Accela to illustrate the "Amtrak service" which will serve the station)

EDIT: The City of Durham has been getting a serious workout since it was put into service. I have seen it pulling the 76 (and by extension I assume the 75) nearly every day for the past couple of weeks.

Edited August 31, 2011 by kermit

[staffer]

The Business Journal reports that the new Cary station will open Tomorrow

http://www.bizjourna...du&ana=e_du_pap

(as a non-meaningful aside its interesting they choose a photo of the Accela to illustrate the "Amtrak service" which will serve the station)

I was by the CYN station today, contractors were working their punch list. Looks great Edited August 31, 2011 by staffer

[orulz]

I went by the Cary station today and can confirm that it is open and staffed. Baggage service is also now available, which means I can use this station instead of Raleigh for my upcoming trip to Florida

[staffer]

I went by the Cary station today and can confirm that it is open and staffed. Baggage service is also now available, which means I can use this station instead of Raleigh for my upcoming trip to Florida

actually, there is NO checked baggage service on the S line to Florida yet from CYN, only on the H line to Charlotte. Baggage on the S line should start in two or three weeks after the baggage cart turnaround is constructed on Platform B. Temporarily, they are allowing you to carry two bags onboard trains 91/92 (Silver Star)

also, here are pictures I took today at CYN

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100312208263958.2646468.2715315&l=f785963d5c&type=1 feel free to repost and use the pictures

[ERJ170]

3 things I wish to see/want..

1. why can't the boarding platform be at height of the train instead of ground level? Grrrr...

2. Would it be that difficult to have a hot food option and sundry store? Yes, it's not used a lot but it is used and those type of additions spur increase use. Doesn't Cary have some signature restaurant that can open a small eatery (like 42nd St. Oyster Bar has at RDU)? And the sundry can carry meds, magazines, newspapers, toy trains, station patches, t-shirts (like Hudsons in the airport). I'm just saying..

3. Why can't Rail stations have websites? Something that shows news, train status, destinations, upcoming events, etc..

one more thing, Can we rename it Amtrak Carolinas? Much like California, Washington state, etc? Something like "Amtrak Carolinas Piedmont Service", "Amtrak Carolinas Carolinian", "Amtrak Carolinas Biltmore Express", "Amtrak Carolinas Crystal Coaster", etc? I'm just saying..

[mallguy]

3 things I wish to see/want..

1. why can't the boarding platform be at height of the train instead of ground level? Grrrr...

3. Why can't Rail stations have websites? Something that shows news, train status, destinations, upcoming events, etc..

For 1, I am told that rail lines that also host freight trains have clearance issues when combining high-level platforms with freight cars (perhaps freight cars can be wider; I don't know). Most NYC-area commuter train and Amtrak platforms are high-level, but they are expensive and the point is to speed up boarding, to save time.

For 3, plenty of train stations do; Grand Central does, and New Jersey Transit and Metro-North (njtransit.com and mta.info) have train statuses. Departurevision is the NJ Transit term, and Train Time is the Metro-North term.

Amtrak Carolinas? The word Amtrak seems to be largely invisible from the Piedmont.

[ERJ170]

For 3, plenty of train stations do; Grand Central does, and New Jersey Transit and Metro-North (njtransit.com and mta.info) have train statuses. Departurevision is the NJ Transit term, and Train Time is the Metro-North term.

I must be missing it. But what I'm looking for is a website simialar to airport websites that has the train status as it refers to the station.. as well as the information that the Grand Central Station has.. it's not easy to find status of the rail line on the Grand Central website.. and it looks Grand Central is more of a events and shopping arena than a rail station. I mean, that's not a bad thing.. it's like a destination in itself.. but you don't get a status update of the raillines (i.e. Rail XXX arrival scheduled 7:45 actual 8:05; Rail YYY departure scheduled 8:15 actual 8:15). You know what I mean?

[mallguy]

I must be missing it. But what I'm looking for is a website simialar to airport websites that has the train status as it refers to the station.. as well as the information that the Grand Central Station has.. it's not easy to find status of the rail line on the Grand Central website.. and it looks Grand Central is more of a events and shopping arena than a rail station. I mean, that's not a bad thing.. it's like a destination in itself.. but you don't get a status update of the raillines (i.e. Rail XXX arrival scheduled 7:45 actual 8:05; Rail YYY departure scheduled 8:15 actual 8:15). You know what I mean?

Here you go:

http://as0.mta.info/...ons/default.cfm

Grand Central is the largest train station in North America, based on the number of tracks; it has just one railroad in it, Metro-North, but is very busy with commuters. It's prime real estate, in a great location, and so it has stores and restaurants that do a slew of business. (It's getting an Apple Store, too.)

If I had my choice of "must-haves" for the Charlotte-Raleigh(-New York) trains, I'd pick:

1: New Charlotte station

2: New cars (no Amfleet, and no 1960's cars)

3: Maybe electrification, to allow somewhat faster trains and less noise/pollution

Edited September 2, 2011 by mallguy

[ERJ170]

If I had my choice of "must-haves" for the Charlotte-Raleigh(-New York) trains, I'd pick:

1: New Charlotte station

2: New cars (no Amfleet, and no 1960's cars)

3: Maybe electrification, to allow somewhat faster trains and less noise/pollution

Economically speaking, I would say..

1. New Raleigh and Charlotte Station (Private Built)

2. Raleigh and Charlotte Station Lounge ($250/year, Business Class Pax Free Entry, 2nd Floor, 2800 sq ft, bar, tv, chairs, sushi station, sandwich station, conference rooms, kids corner, pod-like beds, glass wall view of downtowns) in addition to Amtrak First Class Lounge: Raleigh = 7 Club Raleigh ; Charlotte = 7 Club Charlotte

3. 100% closed line of NCRR route (Morehead City-Charlotte)

4. Updated website (bytrains.org)

5. Rail Frequent Traveler Program = 7 Club Rail Carolinus (3 levels: Sand <15 trips, Clay <30 trips, Emerald >60 trips annually)

6. 1x Crystal Coast (MHC), 1x Biltmore (AVL), 1x Piedmont Express (RGH-GSO-CLT only)

Just some thoughts..

[mallguy]

#2 sounds even fancier than the US Airways Envoy Lounge at PHL!

[kermit]

It looks like wifi will be up and running sometime next month on the Carolinian thanks to Amtrak's onboard service improvement plan.

I remember that NCDOT requested funds to connect its trains (the Piedmont service) as part of the last batch of HSR reallocations -- but, despite it being one of their highest priority items, that was not funded. It think it would be worth the investment and the universal availability of wifi from Charlotte to Raleigh would generate additional ridership.

[kermit]

RE Consumer Oriented Station improvements:

I understand the desire to make the Charlotte and Raleigh stations into centers of activity, however I think we are severely overestimating the consumer potential of these sites. I was recently in the Providence RI station, it sits in a metro area that is about the same size as Charlotte and about an hour from Boston, a metro of around 4 million (and NYC is only marginally further to the South). I would estimate they have about 40 Amtrak and about 30 commuter trains (to Boston) per day -- its a busy place. But, despite the an activity that will certainly exceed NC station activity in our lifetimes, the station has some benches, a ticket / baggage counter, a mundane gift shop and a small cafe. Neither of the shops appeared to be particularly busy. If that is the best that can be done in Providence's relatively modern station I don't think we can expect better here.

In more general terms, train stations are very different from airports. With rail you arrive in the station minutes before your departure, layovers for connections are less common (and will certainly be rare in Charlotte and Raleigh), and you can purchase (and take your own) food onboard -- thus there is much less opportunity to suck money from passengers wallets. In other words I doubt that any NC stations could support more than a snack bar or duncan donuts on its rail traffic alone.

[49er]

That is most likely true regarding the number of trains, relative difference in density, etc. However, at least in Charlotte, this is seen as a multimodal station with local buses/intercity buses, cabs, commuter rail, highspeed rail and trolleys all convening at one central station. I look at how well the shop space does at the transit center we have today and would think that as long as the onsite retail is also accessible to the general public and not too internally oriented that it would do fairly well. If there is vertical office development at the site and that part of downtown continues to grow more dense, I don't see why some shop space wouldn't succeed even more.

[mallguy]

If the Charlotte and other stations end up being in prime locations, surrounded by other activities (i.e., in locations frequented by lots of people anyway) and are well-designed, they should be able to do well with retail. Union Station in Washington, DC is a good retail center, but it's not just a train station; it's basically "the mall" for Capitol Hill and lots of government office buildings. Grand Central Terminal is "the mall" for dense and affluent areas in midtown Manhattan. If train stations were not in those areas, they would maybe be retail/entertainment centers anyway.

Conversely, look at Penn Station in Manhattan and Jamaica Station in Queens, both of which are major transit centers. Penn Station is right next to a major lower-end shopping street, 34th Street, but it's at the edge of the retail area, and Penn Station is pretty unattractive. It has just fast-food places and non-destination retail in it (e.g., an airport-style bookstore, a few drugstores, etc.). Jamaica Station has nothing other than a Hudson News or two even though it is a main hub, with plenty of transfers, for the Long Island Rail Road.

I think that some type of nicer waiting area for business- and first-class passengers is great. The nicest lounges that I've been in for Amtrak are basically like United's Red Carpet Clubs.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

How about, for starters, the Carolinian depart Raleigh at 10:25 instead of 1:00 (freight train in the way between Greensboro and Burlington).

The Raleigh station is tiny and parking is limited. There needs to be improvements VERY soon if they're going to increase service and expect ridership to match.

[kermit]

YIKES: Progressive Railroading News reports today that the House Transportation Budget:

would “effectively” eliminate state-supported Amtrak service starting Oct. 1, Amtrak officials said in a prepared statement.

The draft budget would prohibit the use of federal funds provided to Amtrak to fund any operating costs of state-supported trains, they said.

See the brief article here: http://www.progressi...ws.asp?id=27918

This would certainly apply to the Carolinian, can anyone with more knowledge weigh in on the effects on the Piedmont? (e.g. are any Amtrak / Federal funds used for the Piedmont?)

I also assume (but am not certain) this would seriously reduce service from Richmond up to the NEC -- thus damaging the prospects for SEHSR service.

Edited September 9, 2011 by kermit

[tozmervo]

According to WRAL, Piedmont service would end. http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/travel/story/10103261/

[kermit]

According to WRAL, Piedmont service would end. http://www.wral.com/...story/10103261/

OK now I am really confused. That article suggests the Carolinian would not be affected, but I was fairly certain that the state subsidized that train for its travel up to DC (after that Amtrak picked up the costs). I had also thought (but was not certain) that NCDOT picked up the entire tab to operate the Piedmont trains -- thus no federal funds were involved.

Ether way this is bad news -- I am just a spectator (and regular rider), but I am really tired of these shenanigans.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

WHAT?!

Ironically, NCDOT floats new plan to lift fast trains over Capital Boulevard.

[orulz]

To the best of my knowledge, no Amtrak/federal money is used to run the Piedmont. 100% of the shortfall is picked up for by the state of NC.

Technically, Amtrak is on the hook for the costs of running the Carolinian north of Rocky Mount, but I've always heard that after you take into account the NC subsidies, the train covers its own costs through Virginia and the northeast.

As for NC5 - Looks like an acceptable plan to me, probably better than NC1-NC3, though I'd kind of gotten attached to the "NC4" devised by citizens. The main theme of NC5 seems to be "Let's stay as far away from Norfolk Southern, CSX, and the neighborhoods as possible". It's nice to see a grade separation at Edgeton. It looks like all of the buildings along West Street would bite the dust to make room for a long HSR viaduct. I'm not inclined to care too much about the loss of the buildings - most of them are metal or concrete block warehouses and the best one is only about a 4 on a 1-10 scale in terms of niceness.

The one requirement I would impose is that I think this viaduct needs to be built so that the space under it is can be used (and I don't mean as a parking lot.) It should be built to either incorporate commercial space from the start, or built in a way that building underneath it is easy.