North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[orulz]

After digging into some numbers and doing a bit of math, for the month of May 2011 we have (rounded to the nearest $100k which is all the precision they give on their website.

Carolinian:

Cost to run: $1.9 million

Ticket Revenue: $1.6 million

State Support: $200k

Funded by Amtrak: $100k

Piedmont:

Cost to run: $500k

Ticket Revenue: $200k

State support: $300k

Funded by Amtrak: $0

So if we extrapolate and multiply this by 12, we see that Amtrak is spending roughly $1.2 million of its annual federal subsidy on operating the Carolinian. I'd like to think that NC and VA could get together and cover that gap if necessary, but who knows given the makeup of the NC legislature these days.

[kermit]

^Thanks for the digging on NC rail finances!

Wishlist:

A daytime Crescent run which would allow reasonable connections with Carolinian / Piedmont trains either in Charlotte or Gboro. It would essentially be an artificial Atlanta / Charlotte / Raleigh corridor train.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

^Thanks for the digging on NC rail finances! Wishlist: A daytime Crescent run which would allow reasonable connections with Carolinian / Piedmont trains either in Charlotte or Gboro. It would essentially be an artificial Atlanta / Charlotte / Raleigh corridor train.

I agree that a couple of Atlanta-GSP-Charlotte-beyond trains would be popular. Reliability would be horrible, though, with current conditions. Single-track, curves, relatively-steep grades through the upper Piedmont of South Carolina.

Maybe one day.

[ERJ170]

With the state that the government (both NC and US) is falling, would it be better for metros/micros looking for rail service to seek private institutions to create/update/remodel train stations? I mean, i think if presented well, it would be best if it's privately run stations.. I'm sure then they will be MUCh more than what they are now.. I mean, if the city of Raleigh leases the space for the rail station to an independent company and let the City have 2 members on the board.. then let the private company do the rail station..

I'm sure what we will see is a 3 platform station with shops, a hotel, some sort of attraction, and a special lounge.. it would make the station an additional city destination not only for the rail but also for the city..

Conversely, I would love to see a rail station at RTP.. with a light rail line that went around RTP.. since it too could be a destination in itself.. where is the forward thinking in this area??? (Oh.. and a Tobacco Road Museum since Greensboro has the ACC museum.. A museum about Tobacco road, the schools, the innovations, and the future that includes nanotechnology).. What do ya'll think?

[kermit]

please delete -- the post turned into an html explosion that I fixed below.

Edited September 30, 2011 by kermit

[kermit]

Some folks at railroad.net discovered a very interesting tidbit in the FY11 Amtrak Performance Improvement Plan

Rerouting the Silver Star via Charlotte

Preliminary analyses also indicate that rerouting the Silver Star between Raleigh, North Carolina, and Columbia, South Carolina, via Charlotte and Greensboro, North Carolina, would produce significant additional ridership and reduce net operating losses. This reroute would provide direct service between Florida and major population centers in North Carolina. However, there is no direct connection between NS’s Charlotte-to-Columbia rail line over which the train would be rerouted and the CSX rail line that serves Amtrak’s Columbia station, and significant investments would be required for equipment and other capital costs.

While it appears investments necessary to get the train from NS tracks to the station in Columbia are prohibitive this switch could be quite a boon to the Piedmont corridor service. Assuming the current schedule would be maintained the north bound Star would arrive in Charlotte around 5:30am and reach Raleigh just before 9am (providing an additional early train before the Carolinian). The train would provide through service to Boston. Southbound trains (when on time) would depart Raleigh around 9pm and arrive in Charlotte around midnight (an excellent late train for the corridor). Southbound trains would continue to Miami. This 'bonus' train through Raleigh-Charlotte would nicely augment planned service, although I suspect on time performance of this train would be very poor given its length. Despite that, whoever lobbies for NCDOT in Washington needs to get on this!

[rooster8]

I'd be surprised if the Rail Division would lobby for a change that would leave Hamlet and Southern Pines without rail service. I would prefer they extend the Carolinian to Columbia (as has previously been discussed here and elsewhere), but I could see where that may just cannibalize the Silver Star numbers for Columbia for those folks heading north.

Edited October 4, 2011 by rooster8

[kdub1]

While it appears investments necessary to get the train from NS tracks to the station in Columbia are prohibitive this switch could be quite a boon to the Piedmont corridor service. Assuming the current schedule would be maintained the north bound Star would arrive in Charlotte around 5:30am and reach Raleigh just before 9am (providing an additional early train before the Carolinian). The train would provide through service to Boston. Southbound trains (when on time) would depart Raleigh around 9pm and arrive in Charlotte around midnight (an excellent late train for the corridor). Southbound trains would continue to Miami. This 'bonus' train through Raleigh-Charlotte would nicely augment planned service, although I suspect on time performance of this train would be very poor given its length. Despite that, whoever lobbies for NCDOT in Washington needs to get on this!

While it would sound nice, NCDOT would have to fundamentally alter service on the Carolinian as restrictions would have to be imposed--either the Star would have to be restricted to travel south of Charlotte or the local travel along the Piedmont Corridor would have to be curtailed for Carolinian passengers with a possible exception for groups and the State Fair. Also, NCDOT spent nearly $12 million to renovate the Southern Pines and Hamlet stations, so that'd be money wasted. I'd rather see the Rail Division either:

1) extend the Carolinian to Columbia

2) push for a new DC-FL train via Charlottesville

3) provide a new Charlotte-Augusta-Atlanta train via Columbia or

4) a combination of 1) and 3)

I'd be surprised if the Rail Division would lobby for a change that would leave Hamlet and Southern Pines without rail service. I would prefer they extend the Carolinian to Columbia (as has previously been discussed here and elsewhere), but I could see where that may just cannibalize the Silver Star numbers for Columbia for those folks heading north.

I think that it's time for NCDOT to at least provide a daytime equivalent of the Silver Star between Raleigh and Jacksonville until those S-Line tracks are upgraded to Regional HSR standards--and SEHSR ready.

Edited October 5, 2011 by kdub1

[mallguy]

NCDOT would have to fundamentally alter service on the Carolinian as restrictions would have to be imposed--either the Star would have to be restricted to travel south of Charlotte or the local travel along the Piedmont Corridor would have to be curtailed for Carolinian passengers with a possible exception for groups and the State Fair.

Sorry, but not understanding why. Both are longish-distance trains. There is capacity on both trains for more passengers.

[mallguy]

I'm reading in the paper that the NC legislature is considering selling the NC Railroad.

As it is reported to make profits of $14-$16 million/year, why not have funding for NC passenger trains come from the NC Railroad instead of directly from the state? That way, funds for NC passenger trains would be more assured, and less subject to the whims of anti-rail legislators.

[orulz]

Here is a document (pdf) that shows how the Viaduct Building in the center of the Raleigh wye could be modified into a train station. Looks pretty interesting. The main entrance to the station would be from a pedestrian plaza at the end of Martin Street, where pedestrians could walk under the tracks. The vehicular entrance for buses and cars would be from a southward extension of West Street.

[ERJ170]

Here is a document (pdf) that shows how the Viaduct Building in the center of the Raleigh wye could be modified into a train station. Looks pretty interesting. The main entrance to the station would be from a pedestrian plaza at the end of Martin Street, where pedestrians could walk under the tracks. The vehicular entrance for buses and cars would be from a southward extension of West Street.

I reviewed the document, but there is still some stuff that is just missing for me. First of all, if there is a need for 150+ parking spots, where do they go after Phase I? It doesn't explain that to me. If anything, I would think they would need to have 250 if in fact they need 150. Second, I would really really REALLY want to see a hotel built atop the current location as a Phase III.... Lastly, I would like to see some more expansion inside the wye of the Dillon Buildling.. something is going to need to set the Rail station apart from just another building.. If you look at Richmond's station, DC's Union Station, or NYC Penn Station, they are all very historic and majestic. Raleigh needs something similar. Since it can't use a true Rail Historic building, they should do something exciting like Green Square is doing with the globe. That's different. That's unique. That's interesting..

Grrrr... I really want something that will make a passenger say "Oh WOW" when they arrive.. And hopefully the walkways will be high velocity glass..

Ohh.. and the fact that their "commuter" synopsis has a Greenville line but NOT a Morehead City line goes to show someone needs to rethink things.. I'm trying to tell them that a train to the coast is a MUST!!!! Why don't they GET IT????

[ERJ170]

Also, just to add on.. they need to have at least 2 shops and 1 eatery, plus an on-site rental car counter at the least... with a bus that can take you to their lot.. I'm just saying.. If I'm coming by train, I want to be able to either catch a cab or metro to my hotel/residence.. OR be able to get a rental car on-site.. the train station should function very much like RDU.. and to add to above, if not a full hotel..then at least a hostel or yotel where you have pods for sleeping..

[rooster8]

If it makes you feel any better, it appears Amtrak feels Morehead City is a desirable location for motor coach service: Study of planned Amtrak service 'postive'

I haven't seen any additional news beyond that article from June, but hopefully this will be the start of something for the folks of Morehead, New Bern, and Greenville (and other eastern cities in the future).

[kermit]

Amtrak has announced that free wifi is now up and running on the Carolinian:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&&note_id=10150344547176127&id=9411224013

If NCDOT can now find the cash to get it running on the Piedmont trains public's view of the utility of our corridor service may improve dramatically.

(I think the cost for wifi on the Piedmonts was $200,000 if I remember the last round of ARRA reallocation applications correctly)

[kermit]

Here is a document (pdf) that shows how the Viaduct Building in the center of the Raleigh wye could be modified into a train station. Looks pretty interesting. The main entrance to the station would be from a pedestrian plaza at the end of Martin Street, where pedestrians could walk under the tracks. The vehicular entrance for buses and cars would be from a southward extension of West Street.

One of the bullets in the presentation was that the Piedmont trains will become 'push-pull.' As I understand the term this will mean an engine at each end of the train. I have seen this done on the Downeaster and understand that this makes turn-around easier I am curious about two things:

1) Has NCDOT planned for this additional equipment? How much might this increase operating expenses.

2) Why? A Y is available in Raleigh and one is planned at Charlotte gateway? What utility does this strategy add that makes it worth the cost?

On a related note, the afternoon Piedmont has been pulled by Amtrak power over the past month or so -- anyone know what happened to the NCDOT power?

[ERJ170]

If it makes you feel any better, it appears Amtrak feels Morehead City is a desirable location for motor coach service: Study of planned Amtrak service 'postive'

I haven't seen any additional news beyond that article from June, but hopefully this will be the start of something for the folks of Morehead, New Bern, and Greenville (and other eastern cities in the future).

Motorcoach is okay, but that's a LONG motorcoach route. I still believe that there is potential for up to 2 daily, 4 car service (push-pull so no yard is needed at the MHC end). I know several people who have taken the train, but the trek to Rocky Mount, Wilson, and Selma from Eastern NC is too long by car just to get to the train station.. There should be a train that meets with a Northbound NYC train and a train to meet with a Southbound Florida train. Also, one of those trains should also allow to meet up with the Piedmont to allow Westerly travel..

One of the bullets in the presentation was that the Piedmont trains will become 'push-pull.' As I understand the term this will mean an engine at each end of the train. I have seen this done on the Downeaster and understand that this makes turn-around easier I am curious about two things:

Push-pull could account for the Asheville, Greenville, and Wilmington service.. would not need a yard if you can just have the engineer walk from one end of the train to the other and take the train back to Raleigh or Charlotte..

[mallguy]

Metro-North and NJ Transit use push-pull equipment for their locomotive-hauled trains. The coach on the other end of the train has an operator's cab at the end rather than a passenger vestibule and door; it can probably be re-manufactured from an existing coach. ETA: the Downeaster doesn't have a powered locomotive at each end of the train; one is a "cabbage" car, which is an F40PH that has had the motor removed and has a baggage compartment in its place, together with the operator's cab.

Push-pull is probably easier to deal with than even a wye, since you don't have to turn the train around at all.

Edited November 2, 2011 by mallguy

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Amtrak has announced that free wifi is now up and running on the Carolinian:

http://www.facebook....7&id=9411224013

If NCDOT can now find the cash to get it running on the Piedmont trains public's view of the utility of our corridor service may improve dramatically.

(I think the cost for wifi on the Piedmonts was $200,000 if I remember the last round of ARRA reallocation applications correctly)

Awesome! Just in time for my trip.

I wonder why it says New York to Raleigh/Cary, though? No WiFi from Raleigh to Charlotte (awaiting ARRA funding for Piedmont WiFi)?

[kdub1]

Sorry, but not understanding why. Both are longish-distance trains. There is capacity on both trains for more passengers.

I'm basing this on what Amtrak does to long-distance trains in the Northeast. Northbound trains between DC and NYC only stop to discharge passengers while southbound trains only stop to receive passengers between the two cities. There is deep suspicion that Amtrak does this to keep Northeastern passengers off the long-distance trains and to use the less sleek Regional trains. It's also based on three assumptions: SEHSR is fully implemented, mass transit plans along the NCRR corridor happen, and the Carolinian is not extended to Columbia. It doesn't make sense, but it's the way that some with Amtrak feel.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Posting this from the northbound Carolinian.

Virginia sucks and has no service.

[kermit]

^ so there is service between CLT and Raleigh?

[burt]

Well, you're sorta right, Cowboy. Virginia's lack of participation in improving rails is holding back rapid service from North Carolina to the Northeast.

On the other hand, 22 Amtrak trains (24, if you include The Auto Train) operate north/south on the two main lines (N/S and CSX) plus numerous VRE commuter trains in and out of D.C.

As far as comfort services are concerned almost all Amtrak trains carry business and coach class cars while the Silver Service and Crescent provide sleepers and full diners.

But the freight lines rule the rails resulting in many delays for passenger service in The Commonwealth.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

I meant there was no Wi-Fi service in southern Virginia the times I checked (ended up watching a movie instead).

I'm not sure about Charlotte to Raleigh WiFi; boarded in Raleigh.

We departed Raleigh half an hour late due to the late northbound Silver Star arriving when the Carolinian was scheduled to arrive (10:20ish). Made up time in Virginia and was back on schedule from Washington north.

[Otto]

NCDOT has intiated websites for two of the ARRA funded projects. These are two of five capacity improvement projects that are part of the Piedmont Improvement Program which runs between Raleigh and Charlotte. These two projects will add over 20 miles of second mainline track between Charlotte and Raleigh. When a third project between Lexington and Thomasville is constructed, it will result in a over 92 miles of continuous double track mainline between Greensboro and Charlotte.

There are two other projects that will construct sidings between Graham and Haw River (10,000 ft) and between I-40 and Morrisville (3.8 miles). All of these capacity projects will facilitate (in the near future) two additional Piedmont round trips between Raleigh and Charlotte and in the not so distant future SEHSR trains.

.

http://www.ncdot.gov/projects/RailHaydockJunker/

http://www.ncdot.gov/projects/RailReidKannapolis/