North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[tozmervo]

Current routing in red, the new VA rail purchase in green. I'm not sure how to find ownership of the "Norlina Subdivision" line running from Norlina to Raleigh, but boy that's an exciting possibility to reduce trip length.

[kermit]

14 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

Current routing in red, the new VA rail purchase in green. I'm not sure how to find ownership of the "Norlina Subdivision" line running from Norlina to Raleigh, but boy that's an exciting possibility to reduce trip length.

IIRC NCDOT has an agreement with CSX to purchase the line (meaning its a done deal), but NC has not yet found the money to pay for it. I don't believe there is any risk to the transaction falling apart, it was just that neither party was in a big hurry to close the deal (partly because NC was waiting on VADOT to decide about its portion of the route). Once in operation, the tracks should cut more than an hour off Raleigh-DC trips.

Edited December 19, 2019 by kermit

[Seaboard Fellow]

11 minutes ago, jthomas said:

 I can't quite make out how the RF&P portion works. It says VA is acquiring 1/2 of the entire ROW and 39 miles of track. I'm guessing that CSX retains the existing double track, and VA gets any existing additional tracks as well as any additional track in the future (there are an additional 37 miles planned as of now).

You are correct in your assumption. There are plans to complete construction of the remaining portions of third main between DC and Fredericksburg. Fourth track construction will happen in conjunction with the construction of the new Long Bridge between Union Station and Alexandria. Additional main and siding tracks will be built incrementally between a Richmond and Fredericksburg. 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Proposed or done deal?

I remember signing up for snail-mail updates from NCDOT regarding SEHSR circa 2002. I think it was supposed to be done in 2015? 2020 at the latest. I'd give it another twenty years and maybe we'll be chugging through Norlina at the blazing speed of 79 mph. Which will actually be a huge improvement due to the current routing.

Edited December 20, 2019 by cowboy_wilhelm

[Seaboard Fellow]

2 hours ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

Proposed or done deal?

I remember signing up for snail-mail updates from NCDOT regarding SEHSR circa 2002. I think it was supposed to be done in 2015? 2020 at the latest. I'd give it another twenty years and maybe we'll be chugging through Norlina at the blazing speed of 79 mph. Which will actually be a huge improvement due to the current routing.

Done deal as far as VA is concerned. NCDOT will now pursue final negotiations for the S-Line. In terms of speed, 79mph is the goal for now. I could see the non-CSX maintained portions between Norlina and Petersburg possibly reaching 90mph.  Raleigh commuter rail will be a part of the negotiations as well.

Raleigh Union Station was designed with future S-Line service in mind, and NCDOT is actively grade separating every busy at-grade crossing along the S-Line in Wake County that’s feasible. The future is bright. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Seaboard Fellow

[kermit]

It appears this was one portion of Virginia's Amazon incentives package: https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2019/12/19/virginia-csx-strike-3-7b-deal-to-massively-expand.html

Quote

Northam made the announcement from 241 18th St., a building owned by JBG Smith Properties (NYSE: JBGS) and leased to Amazon.com Inc. (NASDAQ: AMZN). More commuter trains would open up Northern Virginia, and HQ2, to regions of the state where Interstate 95 is the primary route, said Katie Cristol, Arlington County Board member and chair of the Virginia Railway Express Operations Board.

 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

NCDOT publicly took notice.

Deal Advances on Southeast Rail Corridor
 

If I'm mathing right...
"acquiring approximately 350 miles of CSXT right-of-way and 225 miles of track"

(575 Miles)
"$525 million of the $3.7 billion will be paid to CSXT over the next three years for the acquisition of property and track"

(roughly $1 million per mile)
 

It's about 55 miles from Raleigh to Ridgeway, so... maybe $55 million for NCDOT to acquire? Probably more since it's an active and operational line. I don't know what the construction estimates are. As mentioned, several grade separation projects are already funded in Wake County. But it will still cost a lot to bring the existing tracks up to Class 4.

Too bad NCDOT's financial situation is so dismal right now.

[kermit]

 

(they force you to allocate some funds to congestion reduction. That is a totally BS survey technique.

[davidclt]

16 hours ago, kermit said:

 

(they force you to allocate some funds to congestion reduction. That is a totally BS survey technique.

They also force an allocation for "safety." Unless it's for ATC/PTC/ACSES, or a public education campaign around respecting the train's ROW or the added safety that improves speeds and reliability of the system . . . I'm not interested.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

NCDOT appears to be looking for ways to acquire their portion of the S-Line. An Incremental Service Development Plan will be completed this Spring to identify grant opportunities and the phasing of future improvements.

NCDOT Rail Division Update (March 4, 2020)

[kermit]

2 hours ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

NCDOT appears to be looking for ways to acquire their portion of the S-Line. An Incremental Service Development Plan will be completed this Spring to identify grant opportunities and the phasing of future improvements.

NCDOT Rail Division Update (March 4, 2020)

Excellent! Plus a possible bonus mention of using the S-Line for commuter rail south of Raleigh also! (slide 6). Intercity service from Raleigh to Southern Pines is also shown as a "Planned Passenger Rail Project" on the map on p21. Other "Planned Passenger Rail Project" are shown to Winston-Salem and Fayetteville (as well as Asheville and Wilmington).

Edited March 5, 2020 by kermit

[jthomas]

This is good stuff. Depending on election results in November, it's possible that federal transportation funding could place a much greater emphasis on rail. I'm glad to see that the state is well into planning projects that could be accelerated by more federal money. It helps that the biggest projects for the state (S-line/SEHSR, and maybe Charlotte-Atlanta too) would likely be high priorities in a scenario of large-scale federal rail investment.

[kermit]

While NCDOT temporarily reduced Piedmont frequencies, based on the equipment set laying over in Charlotte this afternoon, it looks like they have doubled (or more) consist size. I would bet this was a desire to increase the ability of passengers to social distance, rather than any ridership pressure.  

One of the luxuries of NC owning its own equipment.

 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

The Carolinian is canceled until May 4.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2020/2020-04-03-carolinian-service.aspx

Edited April 4, 2020 by cowboy_wilhelm

[kermit]

NCDOT has just received a new $80 million grant to purchase 6 new locomotives and 13 coaches.   The grant says it will " facilitate a fourth daily round trip between Raleigh, Charlotte, and points between"

This bolsters a similar ($77 million) grant last year to purchase new coaches. The heritage fleet's days are numbered -- I'll really miss them.

https://price.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/chairman-price-announces-80-mil-grant-ncdot-piedmont-raleigh-charlotte

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by kermit

[LKN704]

46 minutes ago, kermit said:

NCDOT has just received an $80 million grant to purchase 6 new locomotives and 13 coaches.  The grant says it will " facilitate a fourth daily round trip between Raleigh, Charlotte, and points between"

This bolsters a similar grant from last year to purchase new equipment. The heritage fleet's days are numbered -- I'll really miss them.

https://price.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/chairman-price-announces-80-mil-grant-ncdot-piedmont-raleigh-charlotte

 

That's awesome news. They are expected to be Siemens Charger/Viaggio sets, correct?

[kermit]

6 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

That's awesome news. They are expected to be Siemens Charger/Viaggio sets, correct?

I don't believe NCDOT has ever publicly said. But yes, Siemens is basically the only American builder accepting small orders at the moment. 

[Hushpuppy321]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

NCDOT has just received a new $80 million grant to purchase 6 new locomotives and 13 coaches.   The grant says it will " facilitate a fourth daily round trip between Raleigh, Charlotte, and points between"

This bolsters a similar ($77 million) grant last year to purchase new coaches. The heritage fleet's days are numbered -- I'll really miss them.

https://price.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/chairman-price-announces-80-mil-grant-ncdot-piedmont-raleigh-charlotte

Looks like these new Locomotives will be in service by 2023 - Just in time for CLT Gateway to have some level of service in Charlotte..  I wonder if the older State owned trains To be taken out of service could be used for commuter service either in Wake or Mecklenburg County in the future.

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

3 hours ago, kermit said:

Looks like these new Locomotives will be in service by 2023 - Just in time for CLT Gateway to have some level of service in Charlotte..  I wonder if the older State owned trains To be taken out of service could be used for commuter service either in Wake or Mecklenburg County in the future.

I am a huge fan of the current set of Piedmont gear, but I am not sure if any of it is a good choice for higher intensity commuter service, particularly the locomotives (which Go Transit decided were too old for them more than a decade ago).

While its a completely different agency, I think the lesson of Charlotte's streetcar starter segment is relevant here. Using hand me down equipment for new service can disappoint potential riders and create reliability problems. I am not sure the cash savings was worth it in that case. 

[jthomas]

I agree that the current Piedmont equipment would be a poor choice for commuter rail. In addition to the age concerns, it is too heavy and slow to be used in an environment with frequent stops and starts. 

However, IMO the current fleet could be used to start up Wilmington service. There would be enough equipment to match frequencies with the Piedmont, with a cross-platform transfer in Raleigh enabling seamless trips from the Piedmont to the coast.

[kermit]

 

 

[jthomas]

Has anyone heard a timeline for a resumption of the Piedmonts? The NC By Train site is still showing the same service alert from three months ago. The more time that passes, the more I worry that these trains will not come back due to NCDOT's budget woes (even though I'm sure the money it takes to run them is a pittance compared to what it takes to feed the highway industrial complex).

[kermit]

On 8/3/2020 at 8:23 PM, jthomas said:

Has anyone heard a timeline for a resumption of the Piedmonts? The NC By Train site is still showing the same service alert from three months ago. The more time that passes, the more I worry that these trains will not come back due to NCDOT's budget woes (even though I'm sure the money it takes to run them is a pittance compared to what it takes to feed the highway industrial complex).

One Piedmont trip (#73 and 76, the early train from RGH, close of business train from CLT) will resume on August 10th.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2020/2020-08-05-piedmont-service.aspx

I am pretty confident that full (and expanded) Piedmont service will return in the post-virus age. Trains are way cheaper than another new lane on 85.

Edited August 5, 2020 by kermit

[jthomas]

Found this in an article about the Piedmont service restart:

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article244738742.html

NCDOT has decided to accept an $80 million federal grant to buy six new locomotives and 13 passenger cars. When the grant was announced in late May, NCDOT officials said they wanted to evaluate the long-term effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on passenger rail before accepting the money.

The latest grant follows an earlier $77 million federal grant NCDOT received for 13 passenger cars for the Piedmont, meaning the state will eventually have a fleet of 26 new cars. The cars would allow NCDOT to follow through on a plan to add a fourth round trip of the Piedmont in 2023, to coincide with the opening of a new Amtrak station in Uptown Charlotte.

The acceptance of the grant seems to be pretty definitive good news about the future. I didn't realize the second grant also included locomotives - it will be nice to see all-new equipment in service.

[kermit]

Not passenger related but interesting nonetheless. Trains reports that NS has ended its through service between Lynwood and Knoxville (it now goes via Atlanta). It sounds like there will only be one local per day (if that) traveling the S Line between Salisbury and Asheville. I can’t imagine NS will want to own the line for much longer.

Edited August 10, 2020 by kermit