North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[kermit]

The EIS for the Long Bridge replacement has been approved (new news) and it includes some info on planned new routes to NC (I don’t think this is new news for this threadj. The EIS shows plans for 4 new trains from Charlotte to the Corridor (via S Line) plus the Carolinian will remain running  via A-Line (Selma, Wilson, Rocky Mount). I believe the graphic was lifted from the S-Line EIS (which was approved a year or two ago). 

I am disappointed that there is no allocation for any new Atlanta trains. I suppose some of the Charlotte trains could be extended, but I think it is more likely an indication of how difficult ATL-CLT service is thought to be.

Ultimately I would really like to see 10-12 intercity trains per day between Charlotte and Raleigh. In a perfect world these trains would be in addition to commuter service focused on Charlotte, Greensboro and RDU. While its overbuilding for the present day, a triple track RR from Charlotte to Gboro and double track from Gboro to Raleigh (along w Commuter stations off the main) should be sufficient to accommodate all this.  The ROW is already there, the state already owns all of it, but such an expansion would require substantial track maintenance dollars from NCDOT. I think that annual budget allocation may be the most difficult piece of this puzzle.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

Just after I posted above, I stumbled across the 20-25 Amtrak asset plan. It includes some good and bad news for us:

1) Amtrak is considering acquiring dual mode locomotives (both electric and diesel) for all service that extends beyond the corridor. If this happens it should cut about 10-15 minutes off trips from NC to points north of DC. This means that if the Carolinian is on time it will be much easier to make the first pitch at Camden Yards!

2) Amtrak does not expect the 4th Piedmont frequency until FY 2024 (ugh, stop dragging your feet NCDOT!)

3) likely food downgrades on the Crescent (switch to flexible dining (aka airline food) in dining car).

4) We should see some additional sleeper capacity on the Crescent as new Viewliner gear is added to service. I think they have already added a baggage dorm to the Crescent which would have freed up 4(?) rooms already. Another full sleeper would be a very big capacity increase.

Edited September 5, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

Lexington just got a $25 million BUILD grant for their new station (plus a grade separation downtown).

https://www.the-dispatch.com/story/news/local/2020/09/11/lexington-receive-25-million-new-train-and-bus-station/3464501001/

Edited September 14, 2020 by kermit

[davidclt]

On 9/5/2020 at 11:23 AM, kermit said:

1) Amtrak is considering acquiring dual mode locomotives (both electric and diesel) for all service that extends beyond the corridor. If this happens it should cut about 10-15 minutes off trips from NC to points north of DC. This means that if the Carolinian is on time it will be much easier to make the first pitch at Camden Yards!

I wish they would electrify the line from Charlotte to DC because diesel is dirty. 

[kermit]

Just now, davidclt said:

I wish they would electrify the line from Charlotte to DC because diesel is dirty. 

and electric is faster!

NS does not want to run under wire, but that may not matter on the NCRR.

The only real barrier is the $4 million per mile construction cost and $12k per mile (per year) maintenance costs. IIRC the point where electrification becomes cost effective is roughly 20 trains per day. As carbon costs go up this number will decline somewhat.

[kermit]

NCDOT just received a $47 million grant to purchase the active portion of the S-Line from Raleigh to Ridgeway. I believe the state already owns the abandoned portion north of that and VA now owns the VA section. The article implies that NCDOT has a deal with CSX already agreed to.

This is exciting, construction is the only thing that remains to chop roughly an hour (maybe more) off a Raleigh to DC trip.

https://amp.newsobserver.com/news/local/article245841010.html

[kermit]

NC should be much more ambitious than just settling for  the S-Line
 

 

 

[Cityplanner]

The Crescent already has “flexible dining” and lunch north of Washington has been eliminated.

”Amtrak Joe” was already VP for 8 years and Democrats controller Congress for 2 of those years.  There is very little to show for that so I’ll believe promises of a passenger rail renaissance when I see it.  

[kermit]

The return of Congressional earmarks may be good news for the S-Line reconstruction. Butterfield and Price would both want to make it happen, Burr or Tillis would need some arm twisting...

https://www.rollcall.com/2020/11/20/hoyer-earmarks-are-likely-coming-back-next-year/

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

Not currently relevant to NC passenger rail but...

The very high quality, fully welded-rail Hendersonville to Brevard line (formerly NS, currently owned by Blue Ridge Southern) is being converted to a greenway. It will be a really nice greenway (and I'll bike it at least once, hopefully). This basically insures that the tracks will never be used again, it is being done via a federal railbanking program so the article says:

Quote

Additional funding will still be needed to convert the railbed into a greenway. And because the purchase will take place under the federal railbanking program, the line could be restored to railroad use if an operator were to pay fair market value for the land.

https://mountainx.com/news/green-in-brief-ecusta-trail-under-contract-arboretum-launches-kids-bird-watching-program/

[kermit]

Funding for the Long Bridge (over Potomac)  replacement appears to have been included in the new funding bill attached to the latest stimulus. The fuzzy news I have is that this should speed its completion and (as a bonus) its funding won’t get cannibalized by the Gateway tunnels.

[this new bridge is necessary before any new trains can be added between NC and the NEC. Also a necessary step before the reconstructed S-Line can be effectively used]

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by kermit

[rancenc]

The city of Sanford if preparing for potential growth from commuter rail.

https://www.sanfordherald.com/news/s-line-to-help-boost-east-sanford-development/article_9f675855-595e-5fd6-814a-65f6cfd9c9d6.html

[jthomas]

Cross-posting this from the Charlotte forum into a more appropriate venue...

On 2/5/2021 at 8:38 AM, jthomas said:

In my fantasy world, NC builds a true high-speed line connecting Raleigh, Greensboro, and Charlotte that would have an end-to-end run time of 1:30-1:45. Hourly express service (with the potential to extend north to DC or south to Atlanta), plus hourly or better service to intermediate stops on the existing NCRR line. It would be a game changer for NC to create, as you say, effectively one 6M+ metro area rather than three 1.5-2M metros. Not only are the three metros in a pretty clean line (well, arc), but many of the key destinations within the regions are directly adjacent to the line (universities, hospitals, research parks, sports/entertainment destinations, CLT and RDU airports, etc.).

And I don't think this idea is as far-fetched as it seems on first glance. Travel demand will only continue to grow on the 40/85 corridor, and the only plausible alternatives are another round of mega-widening on the interstates, or perhaps a new freeway following the 49/64 route. I would think the costs of each option would not be that far off, plus rail could likely move more people (the goal of transportation, right?) without all of the negative externalities of massive freeways and auto-dependence. And while I think the project would be compelling enough for NC to do on its own if necessary, it would be a key piece of an Atlantic seaboard HSR line, and would likely be attractive to a rail-friendly federal government.

On 2/5/2021 at 11:36 AM, kermit said:

You guys have hit on my favorite plan for improving  NC's future prospects. Making the Charlotte-Greensboro (plus Winston)-Raleigh corridor into a single labor market using rail would make the urban crescent globally competitive for attracting talent and knowledge industries. It is also an opportunity to reduce carbon outputs and to create more sustainable cities.

The 2009 ARRA grant built the Charlotte-Greensboro tracks up to 110mph top speed specs (NCDOT has decided not to pay to maintain them at that speed level so 89mph is the best we get currently). This would make travel time between CLT-Gboro under an hour and Gboro-Raleigh less than 50 minutes (tracks east of Greensboro would still need substantial upgrades). These travel times would make daily commutes between Greensboro and the two endpoints totally doable (and a good bit shorter than many rail commuters accept in NYC, Boston, Chicago and DC)

In terms of Gross Metropolitan Product, a unified NC Crescent (all the metro areas between Charlotte and Raleigh) would produce $419 billion worth of stuff annually. This would rank us as the 12th largest metro economy, just behind Atlanta and just ahead of Miami. [Charlotte is currently the 21st largest metro economy ($178 billion per year)]

More importantly, yolking these metro's together with high-frequency passenger rail service would:

• Improve economies in the in between areas (including Greensboro) thanks to some workers in Charlotte and the Triangle seeking out smaller town living along the rail
• Lower the cost of living for many without increasing carbon outputs.
• Allow for more interaction between the arts and design communities in the Triad with the R&D and manufacturing communities of Charlotte and Raleigh.
• Create better connections between the Triangles R&D and Charlotte's finance
• Connect Charlotte's new medical school with medical research clusters in Winston and the Triangle (Winston rail connector would need improvements)

Without some type of improvement like this, NC's cities are going to choke on traffic, be shunned by the global talent pool (most won't know we exist), and get weighted down by low-wage manufacturing jobs.

Charlotte to Raleigh is a bit too far for robust daily commute flows (even by 110mph rail) but daily commuting from Greensboro to either endpoint is totally feasible. It would look a great deal like the urban system in Switzerland (lots of rail commuting from Zurich (finance) to Basel (R&D) and Basel to Geneva (Service / Global hub). This commuting is done at sub-110mph speeds (Switzerland does not have HSR).  Our equivalent rail network is already half built, all we gotta do is make a few remaining improvements to make it to happen.

/rant/

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Phillydog said:

You and me both -- this has been my vision for NC for the last 30 years.    

I'd add...one of the best things about NC is the diversity of landscapes and climates -- easily unmatched in Eastern North America.  But, our two tourism centers in the East and the West are too far for the average tourist to experience in a trip now.  Imagine high speed rail at RDU and CLT travelling the crescent and including Asheville and Wilmington.  Tourists from around the world could fly into CLT (or RDU) visit these cities or head directly to Wilmington or Asheville, rent a car, travel around and then get a train and be at the other end of the state in a few hours.  

 

[jthomas]

^One of the things I love the most about NC as a life-long resident, is that I feel like the whole state "belongs" to all of us. I live in Greensboro, but when I visit Southport, or Asheville, or Raleigh, or wherever - it feels like those places are extensions of my home, and that their positive qualities are there for every NC resident to enjoy. @Phillydog is right that the diversity of NC is an unmatched treasure. But with the twin pressures of population and tourism growth, all of those treasures are at risk of being strangled by their own success. It's already happening in places like Boone, or any beach town during the summer. Auto-centric development only scales well to a certain point, and then it quickly devolves into a nightmare. I think there are many places in NC that are at or close to that tipping point.

That's why I see rail transportation, and public transit in general, as a statewide problem that needs an integrated statewide solution. It can't just be Charlotte and the Triangle going on their own. NC will destroy the very things that make it attractive if it doesn't make a major effort to shift the paradigm of transportation and development across the state. I think @kermit's Switzerland example is a perfect model to aspire to.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

https://www.cnn.com/travel/amp/trans-europe-express-trains/index.html

Note, the 621 mile comment about carbon emissions....and the travel times.  The key to rail travel and convenience is that it's city center to city center.  That the Charlotte street car line intersects the Gateway site is no small thing for arriving and departing visitors and residents.  High speed, electrified, rail between Charlotte to as far as at least DC via GSO and Danville route and Philadelphia north makes air travel more time consuming and more of a hassle.  Raleigh -Durham to DC, NYC, via Henderson as well.  And...imagine Asheville to Wilmington via Charlotte in less than 3 hours vs 5.5 by car.  Durham  to Ashevile in less than 2 hours.  Charlotte to Atlanta, GA in 2 hours city center to city center?  Boom.  Of course......the air industry and associated businesses will crush this vision....like a bug.  If the ai industry was smart, they'd partner with rail and focus on the 600 + mile trips...even the car rental companies can benefit putting rental offices at rail stations.  

Edited February 9, 2021 by Phillydog

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:16 AM, Cityplanner said:

The Crescent already has “flexible dining” and lunch north of Washington has been eliminated.

”Amtrak Joe” was already VP for 8 years and Democrats controller Congress for 2 of those years.  There is very little to show for that so I’ll believe promises of a passenger rail renaissance when I see it.  

During those 2 years they were focused on passing health care legislation and it was the President's signature effort at the time.  I'm more hopeful this time, more concerned about the airport/airline lobbies.

[Cityplanner]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:09 AM, Phillydog said:

During those 2 years they were focused on passing health care legislation and it was the President's signature effort at the time.  I'm more hopeful this time, more concerned about the airport/airline lobbies.

And during that period billions of dollars were allocated, and disbursed, for rail projects around the country, and for a high-speed rail project in Florida specifically.    That money often went to (1) small projects (such as incremental track improvement projects and rebuilding some Amfleet cars) or (2) large projects (such as the Florida HSR project that failed.  Even the track improvement projects, such as the proposed 110-mph routes in Illinois, haven't resulted in promised improvements over a decade later.  So despite promises of 110-mph trains in the Midwest, a high-speed rail line in Florida and more, many of those promises weren't fulfilled.

In 2008, Obama said that the night that of one of his election victories was "the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."  I'm waiting for tangible effects of that, too.

[kermit]

21 hours ago, Cityplanner said:

 or (2) large projects (such as the Florida HSR project that failed.  Even the track improvement projects, such as the proposed 110-mph routes in Illinois, haven't resulted in promised improvements over a decade later.  So despite promises of 110-mph trains in the Midwest, a high-speed rail line in Florida and more, many of those promises weren't fulfilled.

Well sorta. The Florida project didn't fail, the governor turned down the money (and most of that money was reallocated to California HSR). As much as I thought Rick Scott was being a moron I will grudgingly admit that he made the right decision since it looks likely that Brightline will privately fund the Tampa to Orlando train that the ARRA grant was intended for if their Miami to Orlando project goes well.  The 110 mph tracks in Illinois and Michigan were built, but IDOT is in a bit of a wrestling match with Union Pacific about using that speed through Pontiac, IL. Amtrak and Michigan are balking at maintenance costs on their old Michigan Central tracks that have no freight.

The half a billion which went to NC also improved speeds between Charlotte and Greensboro, but NCDOT decided it did not want to pay the maintenance costs for 110mph running.  Capacity improvements on the NCRR are a big plus, and NCDOT has not yet begun to reap the benefits of them due first to NS being difficult and then to COVID -- but once fully utilized, that half a billion on the NCRR will be seen as a huge bargain.

Having said all that, just about every ARRA project featured bad host railroad negotiations or maintenance funding plans (NC had both). Hopefully state DOT's learned their lessons and will do it better this time.

Edited February 15, 2021 by kermit

[kermit]

Jason Orthner (director of NCDOT rail division) speaking at today's Southeast Rail Forum offered a few interesting tidbits:

• Full Piedmont service will return April 5th (and will have a major fare sale associated with return)
• He showed a map that implies that Wilmington rail service will go via Goldsboro (rather than Fayetteville). But he did not speak directly to this so I may be reading too much into the very stylized map (see below).
• Mentions open dates for Gateway station as both 2023 and 2024(?). Says that 4th Piedmont RT will begin when Gateway opens. Improvements for 5th Piedmont frequency (btw Cary and Gboro) are currently being studied.
• Commuter rail also appears to be teed up already for Raleigh to Sanford (see map)
• RFP for new NCDOT rail cars (already funded) will go out this summer
• New equipment arrivals will coincide with expansion of the Charlotte maintenance facility (which remains unconnected to the rail network)
• He suggested that the S-Line is ready for construction to begin, but will be 'a while' before work actually starts. HOWEVER, "if new funding came available" NCDOT could move "very quickly" on S-Line reconstruction

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by kermit

[jthomas]

17 minutes ago, kermit said:

Jason Orthner (director of NCDOT rail division) speaking at today's Southeast Rail Forum offered a few interesting tidbits:

• Full Piedmont service will return April 5th (and will have a major fare sale associated with return)
• He showed a map that implies that Wilmington rail service will go via Goldsboro (rather than Fayetteville). But he did not speak directly to this so I may be reading too much into the very stylized map (see below).
• Mentions open dates for Gateway station as both 2023 and 2024(?). Says that 4th Piedmont RT will begin when Gateway opens. Improvements for 5th Piedmont frequency (btw Cary and Gboro) are currently being studied.
• Commuter rail also appears to be teed up already for Raleigh to Sanford (see map)
• RFP for new NCDOT rail cars (already funded) will go out this summer
• New equipment arrivals will coincide with expansion of the Charlotte maintenance facility (which remains unconnected to the rail network)
• He suggested that the S-Line is ready, but will be 'a while' before work begins. HOWEVER, "if new funding came available" NCDOT could move "very quickly" on S-Line reconstruction

 

Interesting map! Wilmington service makes more sense via Goldsboro, as the potential exists for the state to own the whole route (just need to buy out CSX south of Goldsboro). I would route Greenville via Goldsboro and Kinston as well. It would require a few miles of new construction near Kinston to connect the line north to Greenville, but that way, improvements to the line between Raleigh and Goldsboro could benefit trains to Wilmington, Greenville, and the Crystal Coast. And since Asheville service is basically a fantasy anyway, I'll say that it would be better going via Spartanburg and and upgraded Saluda line.

Progress on rail seems frustratingly slow, but it sounds like NCDOT is well-positioned if the spigot of federal money gets turned on.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2021/03/31/virginia-amtrak-csx-and-vre-finalize-deal.html

Virginia moving closer to making the Henderson line a reality....  This project could transform the Kerr-Tar region and Southside, VA.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by Phillydog

[kermit]

Here is what Amtrak says they can do if Biden's infrastructure plan passes. The widespread route expansion makes most of the service increases kinda underwhelming (IMO) and nothing here is a big surprise. But, NC should see some long-planned changes significantly accelerated if the bill passes:

• Wilmington service
• Asheville service (I'll be surprised if this actually happens)
• Additional frequency to Atlanta (but it would cost a ton of money to have more than two new trains and the service will still be slow. Or, if they allocate a bunch of money to the greenfield route then its a different story...)
• The S-Line
• 'Enhanced' Piedmont service (prob just the planned additional frequencies, but perhaps also funds to increase speeds to 90mph or possibly 110mph in conjunction with th S-Line)

No discussion of Amtrak's share vs. NCDOT contributions to these in-state trains -- I suspect that Amtrak would need to send a portion of that $80 billion to NCDOT for route upgrades to Wilmington and possibly money to purchase the Asheville tracks outright (they are for sale).

The service on this map was previously priced by Amtrak at $20 billion, but the bill provides $80, not sure where the extra is going.

http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Amtrak-Connects-Us-Fact-Sheet-for-Statement.pdf

Edited April 1, 2021 by kermit

[cowboy_wilhelm]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

[...] possibly money to purchase the Asheville tracks outright (they are for sale).

Is the line for sale? Haven't heard or seen that.

[kermit]

27 minutes ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

Is the line for sale? Haven't heard or seen that.

I don't know that NS has put up an actual sign yet, but the decision to designal it, end through traffic and empty out the Asheville yard are pretty strong indications. Lots of rumors that it will go to shortline and Watco operates part of it already.

see here for one example of the rumor: https://mcdowellnews.com/news/will-covid-19-mean-the-end-of-norfolk-southern-trains-through-mcdowell/article_59fc9d46-9530-11ea-97a1-67c00192e644.html

 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

12 hours ago, kermit said:

I don't know that NS has put up an actual sign yet, but the decision to designal it, end through traffic and empty out the Asheville yard are pretty strong indications. Lots of rumors that it will go to shortline and Watco operates part of it already.

see here for one example of the rumor: https://mcdowellnews.com/news/will-covid-19-mean-the-end-of-norfolk-southern-trains-through-mcdowell/article_59fc9d46-9530-11ea-97a1-67c00192e644.html

 

Gotcha. I was aware of the recent downgrading and won't be surprised if/when it is for sale/sold. Just didn't know if it was official yet.