North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[cowboy_wilhelm]

There is $5 million allocated in the recently passed South Carolina state budget to assist with purchasing the South Carolina portion of the line. I don't think the groups would make the announcement and state dollars already earmarked if Norfolk Southern wasn't willing to sell. The groups just need to raise the amount NS wants (drumming up more support with the announcement) and it's probably a done deal. 

[jthomas]

Random thoughts from onboard Piedmont train 77 this afternoon:

• There must have been at least 100 people who boarded at Raleigh - probably closer to 150. We could absolutely support all-day hourly frequencies on this route, right now. Let your representatives know that we need this mobility option. NCDOT's current plans are not ambitious enough and are taking way too long to implement. This needs to change.
• Amtrak's boarding practices are extremely archaic and inefficient. Coupled with the lack of level boarding at all stations, they are a real obstacle to on-time performance and overall running time, especially when the train is busy.
• I love the new Raleigh station, but the platform access is so convoluted. I could have saved 10 minutes of walking if I could have just directly accessed the platform from Cabarrus Street.
• There are still a lot of slow curves and grade crossings between Raleigh and Greensboro. It's kind of like if you had to drive US 70 between those two cities. We need a rail I-40.

Edited September 16, 2022 by jthomas

[kermit]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:22 PM, jthomas said:

Random thoughts from onboard Piedmont train 77 this afternoon:

• There must have been at least 100 people who boarded at Raleigh - probably closer to 150. We could absolutely support all-day hourly frequencies on this route, right now. Let your representatives know that we need this mobility option. NCDOT's current plans are not ambitious enough and are taking way too long to implement. This needs to change.

The ONLY thing between us and 240mph HSR between Charlotte and Raleigh is political will at the state level (less than one hour trips!)

Agree about the walk to the platform at RUS. Feels like 3 days on horseback to get out of the station downtown.

[kermit]

Feasibility study for Salisbury to Asheville passenger service is underway and is scheduled to be complete by the end of the calendar year. (CAPT sent out some NCDOT documents on this including a ppt from sept 7th on this project, I can’t currently find a link to it online)

This is my least favorite NC rail project, but it could manage to get substantial federal funds despite (IMO) the limited utility of the service (it will always be WAY slower than driving and the probable Biltmore Village station location will be mediocre for access to most of town).

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by kermit

[kermit]

From the most recent Carolina's Association for Passenger Trains newsletter:

Quote

NC PIEDMONT TRAIN DEVELOPMENTS – The long- awaited 5th Charlotte-Raleigh
frequency is now slated to begin in the Spring of 2023. This is in light of
significant ridership increases lately, with Carolinian and Piedmont train ridership
now exceeding pre-pandemic levels. The addition will allow restructuring of train
schedules to include an early Piedmont from Charlotte, and a late Piedmont train
from Raleigh.

and on the S-Line. Norfolk news is interesting.

Quote

RICHMOND-RALEIGH HIGH SPEED RAIL UPDATE -- The R2R project is gaining
steam with a recent infusion of $58 million from the Federal Infrastructure Bill to
begin design work of the former "CSX S line,” much of which was abandoned in
the 1980's. Right of way in Virginia and North Carolina has been purchased by
the respective states.

Passenger service featuring a 110-mph maximum speed is expected, fully grade
separated, concrete ties, high speed switches, high level platforms, advanced signaling
with Positive Train Control, and freight bypass tracks. Preliminary engineering should
be completed by 2026. Service could begin by 2030.

In addition to inter-city passenger services, North Carolina is already planning on
commuter and regional rail services on it’s segment. Virginia plans to extend the
line from Petersburg to downtown Richmond Main Street station by 2040. On a
related matter, NC DOT's Rail Division is taking an initial look at service from
Raleigh to Norfolk for the future via Rocky Mount and Weldon.

And Asheville-Salisbury:

Quote

WESTERN NC RAIL PASSENGER DEVELOPMENTS -- A feasibility study for up to 3
trains per day between Salisbury and Asheville is expected by end of the year. The
trains would make connections with Piedmont and Carolinian services in
Salisbury. Maximum speed on the line would be 79 mph where allowed. Many of the
stations along the line were renovated in past years for the expected resumption of
service. Question marks are Hickory, which has never embraced the concept, and
Asheville, which will need a new station facility. Service would be several years away
due to expected track, signal, and train control work needed; and approval from
Norfolk Southern which presently owns the line.

and the Lexington station:

Quote

STATION NEWS -- The new Amtrak station for Lexington, NC continues to move
closer. The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) is kicking in a $24.9 million grant
presented to town officials on September 28th. The NC Department of Transportation
and City of Lexington are also providing funding for the project. Total cost of the
project is $57 million with completion by 2027. The project includes two boarding
platforms, renovation of a freight depot as interim station, auto tunnel under the
railroad at 5th Avenue which will connect Talbert Avenue, track improvements, and
closing the grade crossing at 7th Avenue. Construction work on the project should
begin by 2024.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by kermit

[kermit]

Quote

North Carolina’s Passenger Rail Service Breaks Record for Ridership

The Carolinian and Piedmont trains handled 48,488 passengers last month, which marks an increase of 32% over the average pre-pandemic monthly ridership levels from 2014 to 2019. The service is operated by Amtrak. 

https://governor.nc.gov/news/press-releases/2022/10/14/north-carolinas-passenger-rail-service-breaks-record-ridership

Good time for another Charlotte to Raleigh train...

[kermit]

File this under impractical longshot for NC passenger rail  (but it could happen anyway because of the infrastructure bill).

Some important folks are now lobbying for passenger service from Atlanta/Meridian MS to Dallas / Ft. Worth. One service pattern being discussed is splitting the Crescent in Meridian with service the continuing to both New Orleans and Dallas.

The train ride to Dallas from NC seems like a ‘only for rail fans and congressional reps’ kind of improvement (although new service along the Meridian Speedway does make sense). One risk to the Crescent split strategy is it will make Crescent OTP even worse. There is potential for lots of delays before the split sections arrive in Meridian and then figure at least 45 minutes for yard work and break tests.

https://texasrailadvocates.org/post/three-us-senators-call-for-dallas-fort-worth-to-atlanta-passenger-rail-service

IMO this proposal would make much more sense as three daily trains from Atlanta. One to Dallas, one to New Orleans and one to DC. (Actually the most logical thing world be for six trains per day from Atlanta on these routes, not one but…)

Edited November 6, 2022 by kermit

[kermit]

Fancy new Hillsborough station expected in 2027 (for roughly $8 million)

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/orange-county/article269330092.html

 

[kermit]

While the lack of Charlotte-Raleigh service is glaring, if you wanted to go from Wilson of Fayetteville to NYC or Savannah back in the 60s you had LOTS of options.

(I recently discovered that my now-deceased, tobacco farming great uncle who lived in Wilson (and was a bit of a hick) took the train to NY every weekend for many years in the 1960s because he was dating a Rockette. Is there anything that trains can't do???)

Edited December 16, 2022 by kermit

[davidclt]

Amtrak is getting their new rail cars in the news.

Amtrak unveils new train cars with plenty for customers to love (msn.com)

Per the article:

Quote

The rail company just shared highlights of its new, state-of-the-art trains, dubbed Amtrak Airo, set to roll out on the Northeast Corridor from North Carolina to New York in 2026.

...

The new hybrid engines won’t be as fast as the new Acela trains rolling out in 2023 that will reach speeds of 160 miles an hour. However, these advanced technology trains will save time on longer journeys since they’ll be able to traverse the entire corridor without having to switch engines — currently necessary to hop from commonly used electric engines to the diesel required in more rural areas.

...

Routes for the new regional trains include the Adirondack, Carolinian, Cascades, Downeaster, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Keystone Service, Maple Leaf, New Haven/Springfield Service, Northeast Regional, Palmetto, Pennsylvanian, Vermonter and Virginia services.

California-based Siemens Mobility will manufacture the new fleet of 83 multipowered modern trains. Harris says that the first car should be completed by 2025 in time to roll out in 2026, with the entire fleet projected to be fully online by 2031.

 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:22 PM, jthomas said:

Random thoughts from onboard Piedmont train 77 this afternoon:

• There must have been at least 100 people who boarded at Raleigh - probably closer to 150. We could absolutely support all-day hourly frequencies on this route, right now. Let your representatives know that we need this mobility option. NCDOT's current plans are not ambitious enough and are taking way too long to implement. This needs to change.
• Amtrak's boarding practices are extremely archaic and inefficient. Coupled with the lack of level boarding at all stations, they are a real obstacle to on-time performance and overall running time, especially when the train is busy.
• I love the new Raleigh station, but the platform access is so convoluted. I could have saved 10 minutes of walking if I could have just directly accessed the platform from Cabarrus Street.
• There are still a lot of slow curves and grade crossings between Raleigh and Greensboro. It's kind of like if you had to drive US 70 between those two cities. We need a rail I-40.

 

On 11/29/2022 at 8:21 AM, kermit said:

Fancy new Hillsborough station expected in 2027 (for roughly $8 million)

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/orange-county/article269330092.html

 

 

No offense to Hillsborough, but Hillsborough needs to be bypassed, at least for high speed rail. That is the curviest section along the route.

The eventual widening of I-85 between I-40 and Durham would be an excellent opportunity to incorporate a new HSR cut-off into the right-of-way and project plans. Overly simplified, join I-85 at the Durham Freeway split, follow I-85 past Hillsborough and the I-40 interchange, then reconnect to the existing line near Efland. The existing line through Hillsborough can be left for freight traffic and Piedmont or future commuter/regional service.

This is basically what Brightline has done on the new line to Orlando.

[carolina1792]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:57 AM, cowboy_wilhelm said:

 

No offense to Hillsborough, but Hillsborough needs to be bypassed, at least for high speed rail. That is the curviest section along the route.

The eventual widening of I-85 between I-40 and Durham would be an excellent opportunity to incorporate a new HSR cut-off into the right-of-way and project plans. Overly simplified, join I-85 at the Durham Freeway split, follow I-85 past Hillsborough and the I-40 interchange, then reconnect to the existing line near Efland. The existing line through Hillsborough can be left for freight traffic and Piedmont or future commuter/regional service.

This is basically what Brightline has done on the new line to Orlando.

Technically the High Speed train route should probably go from Raleigh directly to Greensboro before heading directly to Charlotte. Durham can be served by the future Triangle Commuter Rail system and Greensboro can be a transit hub so that passengers can switch to a different service to reach Winston-Salem, High Point, and other nearby areas. No point to go 180 mph if the train has to stop so much. DC ---> Richmond ---> Raleigh ---> Greensboro ---> Charlotte ---> Greenville, SC ---> Atlanta (or Athens then Atlanta depending on the route chosen). If you include Hillsborough then why not include a score of other cities like Spartanburg at that point high speed rail just gets downgraded to regional rail with goofy acceleration patterns. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by carolina1792

[kermit]

48 minutes ago, carolina1792 said:

Technically the High Speed train route should probably go from Raleigh directly to Greensboro before heading directly to Charlotte. Durham can be served by the future Triangle Commuter Rail system and Greensboro can be a transit hub so that passengers can switch to a different service to reach Winston-Salem, High Point, and other nearby areas. No point to go 180 mph if the train has to stop so much. DC ---> Richmond ---> Raleigh ---> Greensboro ---> Charlotte ---> Greenville, SC ---> Atlanta (or Athens then Atlanta depending on the route chosen). If you include Hillsborough then why not include a score of other cities like Spartanburg at that point high speed rail just gets downgraded to regional rail with goofy acceleration patterns. 

At one point (roughly 15 years ago) the preferred routing for SEHSR bypassed Greensboro by blasting through the Uwarries (roughly Raleigh-Asheboro-Charlotte) sometimes utilizing the ACWR route west of the Uwarries. The basic idea was to reduce the political pressure for intermediate stops and minimize route-distance using the hypotenuse route. Needless to say I have not heard any mention of this route (or anything more than NCRR upgrades for semi-HSR) in more than a decade.

You are exactly correct, NC will require overlapping HSR and regional service. Sensible HSR through the sate really can't have more than two stops and still be considered HSR, but there will be huge political pressure for a Triad stop as well as many other intermediate places.

[seththom]

Top Airport Destinations from NC:

Charlotte ~ 6,000 Passengers/Day along SEHSR

• #4, Boston, 525,000 pax/year
• #5 - NYC, 466k
• #7 - ATL, 450k
• #9 - PHL, 432k
• #10 - EWR, 424k

Raleigh ~ 5,500 Passengers/Day

• #1 - ATL, 611k
• #2 - CLT, 413k
• #4 - LGA, 276k
• #6 - JFK, 268k
• #9 - BOS, 225k
• #10 - EWR, 221k

PTI ~ 1,600 Passengers/Day

• #1 - ATL, 252k
• #2 - CLT, 140k
• #3 - LGA, 89k
• #6 - EWR, 43k
• #7 - DCA, 36k
• #8 - PHL, 35k

For me, I'd much rather see high quality rail service (NE Regional) throughout the SEHSR corridor than a truly high-speed train. I feel the toughest issue is that no train in the United States averages faster than 70 mph (Acela), and at that speed, it's 12.5 Hours ATL-NYC.

I think if it's a one-or-another scenario, I'd (albeit selfishly) take the intercity rail over high-speed. Commuter rail can help serve the three individual metro areas along the route, and a high quality intercity line can make all the main stops and hopefully have higher average speeds.

I had some time in Austria recently, and think the service pattern on the Vienna-Salzburg corridor (Western Railway) is a great one to emulate:

Map: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=maxspeed&lat=48.111099041065366&lon=14.615936279296875&zoom=9
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Railway_(Austria)

[jthomas]

Found an interesting tidbit in this article:

Quote

Electrified rail to Raleigh

 

Where the commonwealth will one day see catenaries is on the recently purchased right-of-way from Petersburg to Raleigh. CSX has no plans to run freight service on the 75 miles of abandoned track the VPRA bought from the corporation this past November, clearing the way for fully electrified rail infrastructure. 

State officials in North Carolina have taken the lead on the project. Virginia’s southern neighbor is eager to construct catenaries along the corridor as the lighter train sets and faster speeds they enable would allow passengers from Raleigh to Richmond to shave an hour and a half off of the journey, making the trip competitive with car travel.

Currently, the corridor is only in the low-level design stage, but the project received $58 million last year from the Biden administration for deployment engineering.

This is the first I have heard of NC being interested in running any electrified mainline rail anywhere. It's also the first time I've heard that CSX does not plan to run freight on the reactivated S-line. The mix of freight and passenger operation has been the stated reason for limiting the top speed of that segment to 110 mph. Frankly, I'm a little skeptical because I've never heard of this source and because both of those items would be reversals of previous plans for the project. Nonetheless, it is interesting to hear and would be great news if true. The time difference between 110/125 and 186/220 is not as large on shorter segments, but on the Raleigh-Petersburg run the higher speeds would save a big chunk of time.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

Found an interesting tidbit in this article:

This is the first I have heard of NC being interested in running any electrified mainline rail anywhere. It's also the first time I've heard that CSX does not plan to run freight on the reactivated S-line. The mix of freight and passenger operation has been the stated reason for limiting the top speed of that segment to 110 mph. Frankly, I'm a little skeptical because I've never heard of this source and because both of those items would be reversals of previous plans for the project. Nonetheless, it is interesting to hear and would be great news if true. The time difference between 110/125 and 186/220 is not as large on shorter segments, but on the Raleigh-Petersburg run the higher speeds would save a big chunk of time.

Hmmm, I think the author messed up some stuff. Its true that CSX has no plans to run freight from Petersburg to the state line (all abandoned track), but last I heard they still planned to run locals from Norlina to Raleigh. That said, they would certainly not run double stack there so a wire might be fine.

I am still waiting on the news that NC has closed the purchase of their part of the line (I thought the deal was agreed on years ago), perhaps electrification (both on the S-Line and up to DC) was part of the negotiation?

I am not sure Raleigh is a great place for an electric-diesel engine change (its a long run from Capitol Yard to Union station, the S-Line will pass by the yard but NCDOT does not want a 20+ minute engine change before arrival at Union Station). It might be more doable in Charlotte but still kinda awkward with current platform layouts at Gateway. But I guess a dual mode system makes the most sense...

[XRZ.ME]

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2023/2023-01-18-ncdot-ncbytrain-ridership.aspx

Quote

Between January and December of 2022, more than 522,000 passengers rode NC By Train, which has four daily roundtrips between Raleigh and Charlotte and service to the Northeast. That's more people than have ridden the train in its 32-year history. 

Quote

While October saw the highest number of riders in a month, with 55,493 traveling, December also set a record and was the third best monthly ridership of all time. NC By Train services, which include The Piedmont (Charlotte to Raleigh) and Carolinian (Charlotte to New York) trains, carried over 48,600 riders in December, beating the previous ridership record by over 10%. 

 

[kdub1]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:36 PM, blopp1234 said:

CSX has proven that they can be worked with at times but working with Norfolk Southern, who has been the worse of the two to expand passenger service under, will be the dealbreaker.

And to think that the reverse was true just 10-15 years ago where NS was friendlier to passenger rail.

[jthomas]

Big news - Siemens has picked Lexington as the site for its Eastern US railcar manufacturing and maintenance facility:

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/siemens-mobility-invest-220-million-north-carolina-rail-manufacturing-facility

https://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2023/03/07/lexington-lands-seimens-mobility-rail-car-factory.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=gr&ana=e_gr_BN&j=30759008&senddate=2023-03-07

Presumably, this will be the main site for the manufacturing of Amtrak's new fleet.

Edited March 7, 2023 by jthomas
Added press release

[XRZ.ME]

Does that mean the new Piedmont trainset will be produced here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kermit]

 

 

[kermit]

From this month’s CAPT newsletter:

Quote

Three roundtrips a day proposed for Asheville-Salisbury Line – The final draft feasibility study for resumption of rail service between Asheville and Salisbury is in, with a final version of the study expected by April 1, 2023. The study assumes 3 roundtrips per day along the line spanning 139 miles, with 4 stops along the line, and with a running time of around 3 hours 25 minutes best time. The service is still probably at least 7-10 years away even under the most optimistic scenarios.

Preliminary figures indicate that 100,000 local trips could be generated, with an additional 150 to 290 thousand offline connections possible by 2045. Total capital cost of the project is  projected at 665 million dollars, and an annual operating cost of 7.3 to 10 million dollars. The study also includes an option for a "River Arts" district Asheville station location at the site of the old Asheville Terminal Station which was closed and torn down in the late 1960's.

The North Carolina Department of Transportation is also including the Asheville-Salisbury corridor as one of 13 rail corridors it's asking the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) to include in its Railroad Identification Program. The program is designed to speed creation of additional rail passenger routes across the country.

I’ll reiterate, its just a feasibility study. Not a plan for building out service.

Edited March 10, 2023 by kermit

[Third Strike]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:16 AM, kermit said:

From this month’s CAPT newsletter:

I’ll reiterate, its just a feasibility study. Not a plan for building out service.

Interesting, the newsletter mentions four stops along the line. That’s less than what previous proposals showed. I’m guessing the stops will be Salisbury, Statesville, Hickory and Asheville. 
 

I’m also interested in what kind of impact the closure of the Canton paper mill will have on the railroads in WNC. Someone on the Asheville subreddit said that most of the freight trains they saw were typically heading to Canton. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but if it is, I’m curious what that means for Norfolk-Southern and the Blue Ridge Southern Railroad. 

[kermit]

On 3/11/2023 at 10:30 PM, Third Strike said:

I’m also interested in what kind of impact the closure of the Canton paper mill will have on the railroads in WNC. Someone on the Asheville subreddit said that most of the freight trains they saw were typically heading to Canton. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but if it is, I’m curious what that means for Norfolk-Southern and the Blue Ridge Southern Railroad. 

Yea, closing the mill is very bad news for every remaining freight carrier out of Asheville, I think that the mill was the largest carload generator in WNC by a large margin. That said, I am not sure the situation can deteriorate much for future passenger rail from the status quo. I believe both NS and Blue Ridge Southern are currently maintaining class 2 tracks (e.g. the slowest tracks that are not just sidings and very low traffic branches), so track conditions can't get much worse. Should either owner decide to sell or abandon, NCDOT has shown that they will be the buyer of last resort so I don’t thing we meed to worry about the tracks vanishing. If NCDOT purchased,  I imagine they would fold these tracks into the NCRR corporate structure.  If passenger service ever happens in WNC NCDOT will be on the hook for the cost of track and signal improvements regardless of ownership status. In other words, I don’t think much changes for passenger rail in WNC regardless of what choices NS and Blue Ridge make in the near term.

The loss of a local freight carriers will make running pax easier, but it will force NCDOT to maintain their own tracks, something they have not done yet (at scale anyway).

Edited March 14, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

This is bad news. I honestly thought the Saluda grade was the best (most direct) shot for passenger service to Asheville. Sigh...

Quote

LANDRUM, S.C. — Norfolk Southern has agreed to sell 31 miles of right-of-way for its dormant Saluda Grade — formerly the steepest main line in America — to the Saluda Grade Trail Conservancy for conversion to a trail, the Spartanburg Post and Courier reports.

Three non-profit groups — Conserving Carolina, Upstate Forever, and PAL: Play, Advocate, Live Well — said last year they were negotiating to purchase the line, which last saw a through train in December 2001 [see “Groups seek to buy Saluda Grade …,” Trains News Wire, July 22, 2022]. PAL Executive Director Laura Ringo told the newspaper the conservancy has signed a written agreement that outlines the price and terms of sale, “none of which can be disclosed based on a confidentiality agreement.” The conservancy signed the agreement Feb. 3, while NS signed on Feb. 7.

The 31-mile route includes 16 miles in South Carolina and 15 in North Carolina. The South Carolina legislature has earmarked $5 million for the project. Ringo said next steps include continued fundraising and an economic impact and feasibility study, along with the pursuit of additional state and federal funding. Bob Briggs, mayor of Landrum, S.C., one of the communities on the route, said fundraising will likely take two years, and creation of the trail is still three to five years away.

The Saluda Grade, which included a 4.7% incline with a brief stretch of 5.1% grade, first saw rail service in 1878 and was considered the nation’s most dangerous stretch of mainline railroad. Following its closure, part of the route was sold to Watco, which operates it as part of its Blue Ridge Southern Railroad.