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North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit


Noneck_08

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Agreed - although the Piedmont cars are in reasonable condition considering when they were built (in some cases over 50 years ago) they are definitely old.

It would be nice if NCDOT would spring for some nice Talgo trainsets for the corridor service (matching engines would be nice...) and then use the current, old, refurbished equipment for the Asheville and Wilmington routes (if / when those ever happen...)

The fossil-fuel acela engine is more of a concept train- the jet train. I believe that England has some higher-speed diesel-powered locomotives that top out in the 110-125 mph range, but then again, the current Piedmont engines are capable of those speeds.

The biggest challenge for speed on the NCRR are the many curves. NCDOT has been nickel and dime-ing their way to a faster track by adjusting curves and superelevating (raising the outer rail of curves) track.

Orulz's suggestion of a Talgo trainset (which can tilt into curves) might be a great upgrade to the line- however, I'm not sure that the benefits of a tilting trainset would be significantly realized as long as the conventional 79 mph speed limit is still in effect.

Personally, if the Southeast High Speed Corridor continues to lack a funding source, I'd rather see increased frequency along the Raleigh/Charlotte line and extensions to Asheville in Wilmington before greatly increased speed on the mainline.

With the political calculus being what it is, high speed rail from CLT to WAS (Union Station) has a chance of occurring in the next 15 years. CLT to Atlanta is pipe dream. If the national situation for rail remains grim, I'd like to see NC have good rail connections within its borders.

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Orulz's suggestion of a Talgo trainset (which can tilt into curves) might be a great upgrade to the line- however, I'm not sure that the benefits of a tilting trainset would be significantly realized as long as the conventional 79 mph speed limit is still in effect.
The Talgo XXI trainset is what I'm talking about. The US version only exists on paper so far, but it looks awesome, tilts, and is spec'd to do 125 on US railroads, in the presence of proper signaling. The engine is a modern diesel-hydraulic unit designed to provide the sort of accelleration needed by passenger trains.

The trainset is designed to run at up to 9" of unbalance (Acelas are too, but due to weight and tracking problems at high speeds are limited to 7" on the NEC.) For comparison, standard Amfleets are run at 5" unbalance on the NEC, and just 3" elsewhere, including the NCRR. Some doubt whether 9" unbalance can actually be achieved while meeting FRA Tier II crashworthiness and structural requirements, but Tier II compliance is only required for equipment that will run over 125mph in potentially mixed traffic. The Acela fell victim to this issue, but the Talgo sidesteps it entirely with its 125mph top speed, only needing Tier I compliance - which means significantly lighter rolling stock.

There are so many places on the NCRR - particularly between Greensboro and Raleigh - where the official MAS based on signals and crossings is 79mph, but curvature and superelevation bring the operatings speeds for passenger trains down to 60, 50, or even slower. In these cases, a tilting trainset and some concrete ties (for stability) could get us an extra 10-20mph around those curves. If the train doesn't have to slow down from 79 so frequently, that would have a pretty huge impact on travel time.

My wild guess is that this could shave perhaps 5-10 minutes from the time between Charlotte and Greensboro, and as much as 15-20 minutes between Greensboro and Raleigh.

Edited by orulz
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My wild guess is that this could shave perhaps 5-10 minutes from the time between Charlotte and Greensboro, and as much as 15-20 minutes between Greensboro and Raleigh.

That's one cool train you linked to. I did some looking at the Train Performance Calculator docs in the SEHSR Technical planning monograph, and unfortunately, I think your time savings estimates are probably optimistic, significantly so in the RGH-GRO corridor.

In short, the report suggests that with a superelevation of 5", there are several curves along the H-line where passenger trains could run ABOVE 79 mph with a tilting train, if there was not the FRA ceiling for Class IV track.

So, yes, while a tilting train could change the speeds significantly in the corridor, we'd need to raise the track class to higher speeds, which means NS will demand NCDOT equip its entire locomotive fleet with cab signals.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would ride the train if they would let me bring my bike along. It would be a perfect way to spend a day exploring another city.

They use to allow this but I'm not sure now. The Piedmont pulled a baggage car with it and a dome car but both of those faded away. They even advertised the specials on bringing your bike along. Im not sure what happened to that.

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Saw this today in the N&O:

http://dwb.newsobserver.com/news/ncwire_ne...p-9411371c.html

22% gain in ridership for the Piedmont. The article doesn't explain the increase. Is it gas prices, congestion, or both?

Didn't realize that the bikes-on-board had faded away. That is a cool idea (but how bikeable are the downtowns on the line?).

Edited by danclever
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I'm sure it is due to all of the above plus the recent improvements in travel times due to track improvements. I believe the trip from Ral to Clt was cut about 15 min in the last year, down to about 3 hours. Considering the headache that driving that stretch can be and the more time competitive rail option we now have, it's not surprising to see these numbers.

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in ridership for the Piedmont. The article doesn't explain the increase. Is it gas prices, congestion, or both?

Didn't realize that the bikes-on-board had faded away. That is a cool idea (but how bikeable are the downtowns on the line?).

:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

It's probably a combination of several factors.

1. Increased travel speeds due to NCRR track investment. The travel speed on the line is now down to 3 hours, 9 minutes on the schedule, and sometimes it comes in as early as 3:02.

2. Increased RELIABILITY due to NCRR track investment. In addition to speed improvements, capacity projects have raised the on-time performance of the Piedmont to the point where there's a better than 50% chance you will be exactly on time, and about a 80%-90% chance you will not be more than 15-20 minutes late. Compare this to the crapshoot that is air travel and the comfort of being on the Piedmont compared to an EMbraer Regional jet, for example, and you have an attractive service.

3. Gas prices. Pretty self-explanatory.

4. More aggressive marketing. NCDOT has really stepped up promoting the service now that they have a pretty zippy train to sell. They intentionally dialed the marketing down 2 years back when lots of track projects were underway, causing delays on the NCRR mainline. Now that those improvements are completed and we are reaping the benefits, visit http://www.bytrain.org/ and you'll see marketing programs for college students, groups, multi-rider discount tickets for those who make the same city pair trip over and over again, etc. I have also seen greater advertising in Our State magazine and other media sources that would pick up NC travelers for in-state trips.

Finally, on another note, you WILL soon be able to put your bike on the train. The Piedmont has a new baggage car coming soon which will include a six-bike rack. Individuals will need to make reservations for the bike placement ahead of time, but this will allow up to six bike travelers onboard at any one time, and the possibility for more over any single running of the route. (FOr example, imagine 5 bikers going RGH to CLT in the morning, and a 6th going RGH to GRO. A 7th biker could then get on at High Point and go to CLT, taking the space freed by the GRO biker)

Last I heard, the baggage car's refurbishing work was finished and it needed to be tested for awhile before it could be deployed in service. Maybe we'll see it in August or September, who knows? YOu can bet that once it is ready, though, NCDOT will begin marketing this new option as well.

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2. Increased RELIABILITY due to NCRR track investment.

I should have thought of that as a factor.

This is good to show those who maintain that rail transit does not work.

I'm glad the bike-on-board program is still in the works. This is the kind of innovative thinking that will increase ridership over time. You can actually take a bike onto any Amtrak train now, but you have to disassemble it and check it as luggage. Being able to bring your bike in one piece will encourage more people to combine these modes.

Durham's present and future station are close to the American Tobacco Trail and greenways. Also, the downtown streets are being redeveloped in a manner that is more bike-friendly. Does anyone know how easy it is to ride a bike around the Raleigh, Charlotte or Greensboro stations? There could be great connections, but I don't know.

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The Greensboro and Raleigh stations are both downtown - right in the thick of things. Biking on a street grid downtown is actually quite nice.

Charlotte's station is out on North Tryon in a less friendly neighborhood. There is a plan to build a new station on West Trade that's right between Gateway Village and the BoA towers.

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Speaking of increased ridership.

The news is that Amtrak's Charlotte-Raleigh Piedmont posted the second-highest ridership gains percentagewise of any Amtrak train in the country for FY06 vs FY05, at +22%, second only to the Boston-Portland Downeaster, at +31%.

I don't have the figures for each train for the whole year, but I can look at the October '05 - May '06 statistics found in the May 2006 monthly report. This report still shows the Downeaster leading the charge, at +30.2% over Oct '04 - May '05, the Piedmont in second at +23.4%, and interestingly, the Carolinian in third at 15.7%.

Also interesting to note is that 159,933 people rode the Carolinian with its once-daily round trip for the period, compared with 214,780 for the Downeaster with four (now five) round trips. Perhaps that's not the fairest comparison because the Carolinian has a longer route, and picks up people along the Northeast Corridor as well - but it does show how popular this train is.

If this isn't evidence that North Carolina is ready for better rail service, I don't know what is. In NC, this is almost completely due to word-of-mouth, compared to the relative PR blitz going on for the Downeaster. NCDOT has spent practically nothing promoting the train over the past year. Clearly, it's time for NCDOT to strike while the iron is hot, with more track improvements for speed, reliability and frequency - so they can have enough confidence in their service to really promote it. :thumbsup:

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As much as we debate sprawl here, NC has the good fortune of having laid so much freight infrastructure along "the crescent" from Charlotte to Raleigh. I'm sure the economics will bear out improved train service here long before it catches on in other southern states.

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Even more important is the state has preserved and owns a large amount of ROW that will make future rail connections possible. Unfortunately our neighboring states are not so progressive. NC is one of only 3 states in the entire USA that sponsors state funded rail. If it were not for that, the Piedmont and Carolinean would not exist. I am not sure why the state brands these as Amtrak as I would think they ought to brand these as NC's trains. (I realize they have let out the operation to Amtrak)

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Even more important is the state has preserved and owns a large amount of ROW that will make future rail connections possible. Unfortunately our neighboring states are not so progressive. NC is one of only 3 states in the entire USA that sponsors state funded rail. If it were not for that, the Piedmont and Carolinean would not exist. I am not sure why the state brands these as Amtrak as I would think they ought to brand these as NC's trains. (I realize they have let out the operation to Amtrak)

metro- the situation is not as bad as you think it is. I believe the number of states that support intercity passenger trains with operational cash is something like 12-20 states. Now, operations and capital are two different things.

NC has made significant capital investments along the NCRR mainline that few states have matched. Oregon, Washington state, and California have made significant improvements, as have Michigan, Wisconsin, and Illinois.

Most of the states surrounding us are passenger rail neanderthals. SC and TN are bad, and GA is the worst- they are discussing bills in the GA legislature that specifically PREVENT the possibility of spending money on passenger rail.

VA has been behind the curve for some time, but is getting in gear under Gov Tim Kaine, and for the first time, has a rail capital projects plan with about $60 million earmarked for track improvements. It's not the $200-million plus NC has put into its corridor, but it's a start.

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I also just did some looking at the updated status chart at bytrain.org, which was amended on June 30, 2006.

NCDOT Rail Improvement Status Chart

You can reference these projects to the textual descriptions on the track improvements page, and see that the projects underway (in beige/cream color) will pull another 6 minutes 30 seconds out of the Piedmont schedule by 2008. Since projects always tend to have a little "creep," let's say 2009. But it's also possible that 4 of those minutes will be realized as early as October of this year, or Spring 2007, bringing the Piedmont down to a 3:05 running time.

The remaining "future projects" on the NCDOT website would get us another 1 minute 30 seconds off the clock, down to 3:01, assuming all projects currently proposed were implemented.

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  • 3 weeks later...

There was a blurb on the local news tonight that said inquires about the NC train service had risen 15% since the new restrictions were placed into effect at the airports.

If you consider that you now have to be at the airport 3 hours prior to departure, and add in travel time to the airport, this makes the train much much attractive for travel to places like DC and NYC.

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There was a column by Steve Ford in Monday's N&O about taking the train to Washington. It gives a level-headed look at the Carolinian's and Silver Star's severe on-time performance issues, and a cautiously optimistic look ahead at the Southeast High-Speed Rail project. Nothing new here, but it's a good read, and nice to see that this is getting some press.

One noteable omission from the article is that CSX restricts passenger trains to 60mph (they normally go 80) on days where the temperature is forecast to exceed 90 degrees. This is the major killer for the Carolinian and the Star during the summertime. Just as reducing a highway's speed limit from 55 to 45 reduces its capacity, the railroad loses capacity as well.

Norfolk-Southern has no such restriction, so trains between Charlotte and Selma can run as normal.

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I understand were your coming from on that one. Restrictions on CSX seemed to be more apparent after the derailment of the Capital Limited a few years back. But they have been doing some track work. Near Ashland/Richmond they installed some concrete ties and are replacing a bridge in N. VA also. Personally I think this line needs to be 3 tracked. But there are severals areas that need updating more.

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I believe the SEHSR would go another route that doesn't involve Selma Junction...I believe that coupled with track inprovementsm will save significant time. Once you leave Raleigh it takes another 3 hours just to leave NC. Between Raleigh and Charlotte I would like to see the line atleast 2 tracks with sections of 3 and 4 tracks in many sections. If the state of NC could find some more sources to fund these improvments that would be great. I think right now seeing an increase in ridership is a plus and shows our states on going commitment to rail travel. I think the next steps should be elevating platforms this would help handicaped, elderly, and young children get on and off trains quickly. Elevated platforms would be safer (as long as people stay away from the edge prior to trains arriving) I would like to see ticket machines at every and an easy pass system maybe monthly, bi monthly,etc... Maybe the state could offer incentives to businesses that locate near stations. Trains need to be promoted more to college students also.

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Elevated platforms would be safer (as long as people stay away from the edge prior to trains arriving)

This improvement alone would shave probably 20 minutes off the trip time for the Carolinian between RGH and CLT, and at least 5 or so from the Piedmont, and probably an HOUR between CLT and WAS because station dwell times would be so much shorter.

With low platforms, there has to be a conductor or attendant stationed at every door; with level boarding, all doors could be opened without hiring the extra attendants. In addition, elderly / handicapped folks could get on and off much more safely and quickly without the narrow, steep stairway.

Unfortunately, this is one improvement that's not likely to happen for a long time. Due to freight clearance issues, the freight railroads do not like high platforms. Even though normal-width trains can clear high platforms no problem, they don't want to give up the ability to carry wider loads. In order to have high platforoms, they would require either seperate stopping tracks, or at least gauntlet tracks, both of which would cost in the millions of dollars per installation for the tracks and signals alone, not to mention the modifications to the platforms, which would not be easy or cheap (the escalator in Greensboro and the elevator in High Point stops immediately at the current platform height.)

Old stations (Raleigh or Salisbury, for example) have platforms at approximately the level of the base of the rail. Newer stations (Cary, Greensboro, High Point, Kannapolis) have platforms that are 8" above the top of the rail, the maximum allowed by freight railroads. For comparison, northeast corridor platforms are 48" ATR.

Although all the passenger trains stopping in NC right now use high-floor rolling stock, building high platforms would render our stations incapable of handling lower floor vehicles in the future. For the SEHSR, they're considering lower-floor rolling stock, perhaps with a floor height in the neighborhood of 16-18 inches, so you can board them from an 8" ATR platform with just a single step. Unfortunately such a train would be incompatible with the high platforms of the northeast corridor, and would have to stop at Washington rather than continuing north to New York.

I kind of went on and on, but the upshot is, don't expect high platforms or level boarding in NC any time soon.

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  • 2 months later...

Here's a link to a photo of the new "combine" passenger/luggage car used on the Piedmont, in the new paint scheme that will eventually be used for all new and refurbished NCDOT passenger equipment.

The NCDOT Rail website now reflects the deployment of the combine car with information on bringing your bike onboard the Piedmont.

Visit the NCDOT RAIL DIVISION WEBSITE for more.

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