North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[urbanvb]

One of our forumers attended a meeting tonight about the Southeast High Speed Rail which will connect DC to Richmond, Raleigh and beyond. I thought some of you may be interested so here is his posting:

From the meeting, Richmond is very close to connecting with Raleigh and DC. They are in the process of developing a High Speed Rail from DC to Richmond to Raleigh and beyond. They expect apporoval sometime next year.

Southeastern High Speed Rail

[danclever]

The NCDOT Rail website now reflects the deployment of the combine car with information on bringing your bike onboard the Piedmont.

Visit the NCDOT RAIL DIVISION WEBSITE for more.

Not too shabby. Maybe I'll take my bike for a weekend to Charlotte?

I saw this USA Today headline while passing by a newsstand. It's about the increase in rail transit

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-1...ridership_x.htm

It's nice to hear an airline industry analyst say that Amtrak is in some ways more convenient than air travel.

[burt]

Clarification on who is building the new rail bridge across a river just north of Quantico: The state of Virginia. Neither CSX nor Amtrak has provided any funds whatsoever. It is expected eventually to carry two tracks which, together with the existing parallel one-track CSX bridge, wil provide a third rail on this section in Nova. But in the immediate future, only one track (with approaches) across the nw span has been built. It is expected to open to traffic soon - perhaps February or March.

CSX did recently provide a new crossover at Elmont which is north of Staples Mill Station in Richmond and south of Ashland.

For a while around Thanksgiving, problems on a CSX bridge across the Anacostia River in Washington required freight trains to be rerouted; the result was that only Amtrak and VRE used the stretch between Alexandria and Fredericksburg. Subsequently, freight traffic was allowed thru Union Station in Washington, thus eliminating the need for a re-route.

This info came from my nephew who is construction manager on the new span north of Quantico. He had no details but swore that only passenger traffic out of Union Station had been using the existing one-track bridge.

Back to Carolina news, I suppose it has been decided that new rail will be built along the old Seaboard Air Line ROW from Petersburg to Raleigh to facilitate SEHSR future plans. Orluz, can you or someone else verify this?

Edited December 15, 2006 by burt

[orulz]

It seems the process that SEHSR is following is analagous to the FTA New Starts process. During an alternatives analysis/major investment study phase, the SEHSR organization identified the Seaboard Air Line from Raleigh to Petersburg as the preferred route. (LPA?)

An environmental impact study was already underway on the segment from Raleigh to Burgess during 2004 and 2005, and was due to be complete by now, but due to some unforseen potential impacts, and perhaps also due to Virginia's DRPT stepping up to take a more active role, the scope of the study was revised and the study process began over again.

The new DEIS which will cover the segment from Raleigh to Richmond is funded in full and is currently in progress. No work has yet been done and no funding has yet been allocated for actual engineering or construction.

This report will include a final recommendation for a routing through Petersburg (Lots of options still on the table), will include a list of planned alignment changes to increase speed and capacity, and recommendations to minimize and mitigate environmental impacts. This report is scheduled to be done by October 2007.

[sax184]

The SEHSR corridor was finalized in the October 2002 Record of Decision, which can be found on their publications page.

Page 11 shows the corridor routing and explains the somewhat unorthodox treatment of Winston-Salem. If you're interested in what service would look like if the SEHSR is constructed, check out the Appendix of the FRA monograph, which has the proposed schedules. One the southbound run, the real top-notch portions of the trip are the running between Greensboro and I-485, with a 81.4 mph avg running speed, and the Petersburg to Henderson segment, running at an avg of 81.3.

I wouldn't put a stop in Henderson, but maybe the stopping penalty isn't that big, who knows.

What this does tell you is that in terms of "bang for the buck" - the biggest value in terms of benefits accruing to both ends of the corridor is the Raleigh to Richmond Segment. The Carolinian covers that segment in about 3.5 hours today, an average speed of 45 mph. The SEHSR nearly doubles that speed.

I would love to see this thing get built.

[monsoon]

Maybe they could do it in phases like start with Raleigh to Charlotte.

[orulz]

The SEHSR corridor was finalized in the October 2002 Record of Decision, which can be found on their publications page.

Page 11 shows the corridor routing and explains the somewhat unorthodox treatment of Winston-Salem. If you're interested in what service would look like if the SEHSR is constructed, check out the Appendix of the FRA monograph, which has the proposed schedules. One the southbound run, the real top-notch portions of the trip are the running between Greensboro and I-485, with a 81.4 mph avg running speed, and the Petersburg to Henderson segment, running at an avg of 81.3.

I wouldn't put a stop in Henderson, but maybe the stopping penalty isn't that big, who knows.

What this does tell you is that in terms of "bang for the buck" - the biggest value in terms of benefits accruing to both ends of the corridor is the Raleigh to Richmond Segment. The Carolinian covers that segment in about 3.5 hours today, an average speed of 45 mph. The SEHSR nearly doubles that speed.

I would love to see this thing get built.

Out of the 5 HSR trains planned per day in each direction (10 total) between Raleigh and DC, only 2 per direction (4 total) stop in Henderson. The simulated time for Raleigh - Richmond Staples Mill Rd (not main street) is 2:17 without the stop in Henderson; 2:19 with the stop. I doubt baggage service is planned for the HSR service at all, and certainly not in Henderson. The stop would be pretty quick.

For reference, comparing apples to apples, the Carolinian's current scheduled running time from Raleigh to Richmond Staples Mill Rd is 3:33 (on a good day.) So that's an improvement of 1 hour 16 minutes, due to changing the route, cutting some stops (Rocky Mt, Wilson, Selma) and increasing the top speed to 90/110mph.

[sax184]

Out of the 5 HSR trains planned per day in each direction (10 total) between Raleigh and DC, only 2 per direction (4 total) stop in Henderson. The simulated time for Raleigh - Richmond Staples Mill Rd (not main street) is 2:17 without the stop in Henderson; 2:19 with the stop. I doubt baggage service is planned for the HSR service at all, and certainly not in Henderson. The stop would be pretty quick.

For reference, comparing apples to apples, the Carolinian's current scheduled running time from Raleigh to Richmond Staples Mill Rd is 3:33 (on a good day.) So that's an improvement of 1 hour 16 minutes, due to changing the route, cutting some stops (Rocky Mt, Wilson, Selma) and increasing the top speed to 90/110mph.

That makes sense. Long-term, I think the more interesting question will be whether or not SEHSR is given direct access to Winston-Salem via the K line and the WSSB to Lexington, or whether transfers to Winston will occur at Greensboro. The Washington to Charlotte travel time with Winston added in increases by 40 minutes.

There was talk in the initial meetings of having some of the trains, maybe 1 per day per direction, eventually stopping in Winston on the way to Charlotte. In the meantime, connecting service probably makes more sense.

The Record of Decision states that the highest amount of revenue is achieved by going through Winston, but the highest operating profit occurs by going through Greensboro and High Point, though not by much. ($1 million per year)

The prudent approach is probably to get the primary alignment up and running and assuming there is a good capital program and strong operating revenue, begin sprucing up connections to the NCRR mainline. I'd got to Winston, then Asheville, then Wilmington, but I'm sure others would prefer a different order.

[sax184]

Just for comparison:

Hundreds of Flights canceled as winter weather hits NC

Same day:

Southbound Piedmont Train 73 reaches destination in Charlotte 6 minutes early.

Northbound Carolinian train 80 reaches Raleigh 3 minutes early.

[monsoon]

Nice information. I hope that soon we will see more service in NC.

[burt]

Orulz, above on Dec. 18th you said that the Raleigh/Richmond (Staples Mill) run would be 2:17. Does that mean that there would NOT be a stop for those 10 daily trains at MSS in Ric? I hope that is not the case.!!!

If they were to use high-rise Superliner type cars, they would have to bypass MSS because the famous Triple Crossing just south of the station does not provide enough height for them.

Sorry I've been missing the entries on this topic, but after my last posting, I forgot where it was.

[orulz]

Orulz, above on Dec. 18th you said that the Raleigh/Richmond (Staples Mill) run would be 2:17. Does that mean that there would NOT be a stop for those 10 daily trains at MSS in Ric? I hope that is not the case.!!!

I wasn't meaning to imply that the train wouldn't stop at Main Street. I just wanted to provide an apples-to-apples comparison; Staples Mill Rd is a good 15 minutes north of Main Street, so comparing current running time from Raleigh to Staples Mill with SEHSR running time from Raleigh to Main Street isn't a fair comparison.

If they were to use high-rise Superliner type cars, they would have to bypass MSS because the famous Triple Crossing just south of the station does not provide enough height for them.

Interesting... I was kind of under the impression that they wouldn't be using double-decker rolling stock anyway; are there really any double-decker (or even bi-level, for that matter) tilt trains in use, anywhere in the world?

[burt]

I wasn't meaning to imply that the train wouldn't stop at Main Street. I just wanted to provide an apples-to-apples comparison; Staples Mill Rd is a good 15 minutes north of Main Street, so comparing current running time from Raleigh to Staples Mill with SEHSR running time from Raleigh to Main Street isn't a fair comparison.

Interesting... I was kind of under the impression that they wouldn't be using double-decker rolling stock anyway; are there really any double-decker (or even bi-level, for that matter) tilt trains in use, anywhere in the world?

I'm not aware of any bi-level tilt trains -- unless the Cascade Talgos in the Northwest are two-level. But don't think so.

Was just mentioning the height level problem at Triple Crossing in case anyone was not aware of it.

The only Superliner service thru Richmond and Carolina of which I am aware is the Auto Train and it uses the beltline south of Staples Mill. In fact the only passenger service using MSS are four Amtrak trains daily DC/ Newport News/DC. And track conditions between MSS and Acca Yard are still atrocious, requiring 25 minutes to negotiate.

I'm so glad to have re-found this site.

[sax184]

I'm not aware of any bi-level tilt trains -- unless the Cascade Talgos in the Northwest are two-level. But don't think so.

Was just mentioning the height level problem at Triple Crossing in case anyone was not aware of it.

The only Superliner service thru Richmond and Carolina of which I am aware is the Auto Train and it uses the beltline south of Staples Mill. In fact the only passenger service using MSS are four Amtrak trains daily DC/ Newport News/DC. And track conditions between MSS and Acca Yard are still atrocious, requiring 25 minutes to negotiate.

I'm so glad to have re-found this site.

I don't know of any tilting double-deck trains, either. As far as I know, the TGV Duplex does not tilt.

[burt]

Is there anything on SEHSR since the 2004 report?

[sax184]

Is there anything on SEHSR since the 2004 report?

Yes- most recent updates can be found at the SEHSR website, which was last updated in early January 2007.

[mallguy]

There was an article yesterday in the Financial Times that stated that several European railroads are buying equipment that will travel at 350 km/hr, and the French railroads are planning to break the world speed record with a train that will go 550 km/hr.

I'm glad that North Carolina has more trains than other Southern states, but come on, look what the rest of the world has!

[sax184]

Across the pond, the TGV breaks its own speed record of 515 km/h. The new record speed, 553 km/h, is is the equivalent of 343 MILES PER HOUR on the ground.

Wow. This is closing in on speeds achieved by the German maglev trains. It also demonstrates that super high speeds using conventional high-speed rail, when built with well-engineered lines, is not a technical problem to bring about, only a political one.

The record was broken on the new HSR line between Paris and Strasbourg. Check out the photo here to see how different the trackbed looks from our under-engineered rails in the USA.

Realize that testing speeds are never achieved in regular service. Once open, top speeds will be a mere 198 - 217 mph!

[RALNATIVE]

I just came across some notes from a discussion of the World Development Federation Expert Panel on Transportation that included a proposed high-speed rail service between Raleigh and Charlotte.

Rail:

1. Africa: Proposed Casablanca to Cairo high speed rail
   
2. Asia: Proposed Guangdong to Hong Kong high speed rail
   
3. Australia: Proposed Darwin to Alice Springs line.
   
4. Australia: Proposed Sydney to Canberra to Melbourne high speed rail.
   
5. Canada: Proposed Quebec City to Toronto light rail.
   
6. Europe: Planned, integrated Europe high speed rail system.
   
7. Germany: Proposed Hamburg to Berlin maglev line.
   
8. Japan: Planned new maglev line
   
9. Russia: Proposed Moscow to Leningrad high speed rail
   
10. South Korea: $8 billion project to link Seoul and Pusan with 280-mile high speed rail line
    
11. South Korea: Proposed high speed rail.
    
12. Spain: Proposed high speed rail.
    
13. Taiwan:. $16.4 billion project
    
14. Turkey: Proposed high speed rail
    
15. USA: Proposed Los Angeles to Las Vegas high speed rail.
    
16. USA: Proposed Los Angeles to San Diego high speed rail
    
17. USA: Proposed Ohio high speed rail.
    
18. USA: Proposed Philadelphia to Pittsburgh high speed rail
    
19. USA: Proposed Raleigh to Charlotte (NC) high speed rail
    

I found this interesting because it seems to mirror the direction that NC's two largest cities are heading in terms of national and maybe even international prominence in the future. This would most certainly increase commerce in both cities if ever built.

Does anyone know the status of this proposed service to date?

[sax184]

[*]USA: Proposed Raleigh to Charlotte (NC) high speed rail

Does anyone know the status of this proposed service to date?

Yes- most recent updates can be found at the SEHSR website, which was last updated in early January 2007.

[danclever]

Can anyone point me to data that show how many passengers use each of NC's rail stations (per year)?

[orulz]

Here you go:

Amtrak's FY06 Fact Sheet for NC

Raleigh 122,638

Charlotte 114,560

Greensboro 71,784

Rocky Mount 47,456

Fayetteville 43,736

Durham 39,035

Wilson 33,412

Cary 20,682

High Point 17,687

Salisbury 16,653

Burlington 11,797

Selma-Smithfield 9,605

Kannapolis 8,450

Southern Pines 4,246

Hamlet 4,149

Gastonia 1,582

Total North Carolina Station Usage: 567,472

The first 3 are predictable enough. Raleigh beats Charlotte because it's closer and therefore more convenient to the NEC. As for #4, I'd think at least one of Durham, Cary, or Fayetteville would come in ahead of Rocky Mount, but I guess not. Perhaps this is due to the comparatively high level of service enjoyed at Rocky Mount - the schedule is pretty convenient, with 8 daily trains, almost all of which arrive and depart at a reasonable hour.

Gastonia has the crappiest station in the state with the worst service (just two trains per day, at 1am and 3am) and therefore the lowest ridership.

[danclever]

Gastonia has the crappiest station in the state with the worst service (just two trains per day, at 1am and 3am) and therefore the lowest ridership.

Many thanks. Very interesting.

Worse than an Amshack?

http://snow.prohosting.com/usarail/durham.htm

[sax184]

Listen to the roar as the TGV approaches, and then the silence moments later. Within 3 seconds, it's more than 1/4 mile away from the camera.

[burt]

It looks like The Carolinian will be out of service for a few days due to track work in NOVA.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satel...sPN=%21business