North Carolina Intercity Rail Transit

[RDUairport]

All of this sounds great. I don't know too much about NCRR but its great that steps are being taken to get new service started. How real is the possibility of getting service to wilmington and when could we look for this to happen?

[sax184]

All of this sounds great. I don't know too much about NCRR but its great that steps are being taken to get new service started. How real is the possibility of getting service to wilmington and when could we look for this to happen?

Service to Wilmington? This is probably ten years away at best, 20 years more likely. While NCDOT has not said as much, it seems that the line to Asheville is the primary priority OFF the NCRR mainline. They have refurbished several stations on that line, and the two F59-PHI locomotives that pull the Piedmont equipment are named "City of Asheville" and "City of Salisbury."

[JeffC]

Train to the beach is one of those things that sounds great until you start thinking about the nitty-gritty details...No one would use that service except perhaps day trippers, and unless you run some sort of express, the trip itself would take most of the day...why would anyone take the train to the beach for a week's stay, unless you are going to rent a car once you get there? And if you still have to rent a car and drive around, why even bother with the train, large quantities of luggage, etc.? I agree it sounds inviting at first impression, but isn't really practical when you start thinking about it...

[ChiefJoJo]

Train to the beach is one of those things that sounds great until you start thinking about the nitty-gritty details...No one would use that service except perhaps day trippers, and unless you run some sort of express, the trip itself would take most of the day...why would anyone take the train to the beach for a week's stay, unless you are going to rent a car once you get there? And if you still have to rent a car and drive around, why even bother with the train, large quantities of luggage, etc.? I agree it sounds inviting at first impression, but isn't really practical when you start thinking about it...

I agree with you. These sorts of things usually sound better than the service delivers. I will say, with the way Raleigh, Wilmington, and the other cities in the state (CLT, W-S, GSO, AVL) are urbanizing and the traffic congestion on the interstates worsens, it's going to make more and more sense to implement passenger rail service. Also, the DOT's study showed that the #1 destination for Wilmington residents was Raleigh and then on to he northeastern seabord (DC, NY)... so it isn't just about beachgoers.

Transitman & orulz: Does Asheville have an old station that is being renovated or will a new one need to be constructed?

[orulz]

Historically, Asheville had two stations, Biltmore and Asheville. Asheville station was larger but it was in an inconvenient location in a poorer part of town by the river. The station was vacated/demolished in the 1960s around the time that the Carolina Special was discontinued. The Carolina Special originated in Chicago and ran as a whole train Asheville, where it then split into two sections- one for Goldsboro and the other for Charleston.

Southern kept running its lone Asheville train, the "Asheville Special," out of Biltmore depot, until it too was finally cancelled in 1975.

When Southern stopped running trains, they sold the Biltmore depot, and it's now a restaurant. Southern's successor (Norfolk Southern" still owns the piece of land that the old Asheville depot was on.

When NCDOT was looking for a site to build a new station, they investigated the site of the old depot, but found it to be (you guessed it) too inconvenient. Though as you'll see on the map below, the site they wound up choosing isn't a whole lot better... I've also pointed out the location I think would be best for a train station.

Click here.

[rooster8]

That's an interesting station idea. I understand why they wanted the station near Biltmore Village, but its current proposed location might as well be 3 miles away. A station in the River Arts District would have helped that area bloom.

[orulz]

Well, ideally I'd like to see the old setup of two stations in Asheville restored, one in Biltmore and the other in the River District, but I doubt that's very likely.

I figure that Somewhere in the Haywood / Roberts / Lyman / Riverside block is the best place for the main station because of a few reasons:

1. This is as close as the tracks come to downtown

2. Easily accessible from the two densest and most urban parts of town, West Asheville and Downtown.

3. The River District is an up-and-coming, urbanizing area with a lot of potential.

If I could choose where the Biltmore Village station would go, I'd either use the old Depot building itself, or put it directly across the tracks from the depot with a pedestrian bridge connecting to the Village. The currently proposed site is geographically close to Biltmore Village, but you're right - it's in such an unwelcoming and inaccessible spot that it might as well be out on Tunnel Road.

[CapeFearRiver10]

I have a idea to make NC more rail transit state. Lets create 1 state Lottery game where all the money goes to the NC transit rail system (light rail, heavy rail, & subways "yes"). You guys would be amazed how people crowd gas station just for 1 lottery ticket (sometimes 20). I'm sure that we can easily clear all debts in about 20 years.

or

We could create a gambling city in NC that funds transit for the state. I have city in mind Pembroke, NC because it close to I-95 & it has a strong Indian history. We could do all kinds of gambling like horse/dog/Indy racing, Casinos, boxing, UFC (Ultimate Fighting), Bunny Ranch "LOL", & a theme park for the kiddies. I believe it could be the hub entertainment for the Mid-Atlantic, NC, VA, SC, TN, GA, & DC.

Maybe these could work?

[ChiefJoJo]

There is an East Coast Summit on High Speed Rail on Monday in Raleigh.

Has the Time Finally Come?

All you have to do is read the headlines -

Airline executives call for high speed trains to reduce aviation gridlock.

Airline horrors are sending riders to rail. Acela ridership is growing so fast that more cars are needed.

The House passed an Amtrak funding bill for $1.4 billion with $50 million more for capital projects.

The Senate

[DB78]

Chief: Oil closed at $89.47 today. Niiiice. The writing is on the wall. We have to change our way of thinking with transportation. The price for oil may go back down to say $65-70 in the near future for oil, but that will be a temporary reprieve. It's bound to keep steadily going up. Hybrids and diesel cars will only forestall an inevitability with transportation.

Therefore, high speed rail has to be taken seriously. How many more highways can we create here in NC?? Don't we have the 2nd most state roads, behind Texas?? The unfortunate part is that even with the track improvements planned so far between Charlotte and Raleigh, the top speed will only be up to 90mph and from Raleigh to Richmond up to 110 mph, then 90mph again from Richmond to DC. Not exactly huge improvements. Not exactly high speed either.

Hopefully this conference on Monday in Raleigh will eventually lead to something more substantial than the plans so far that I just described. I think long term Amtrak can even be profitable. That would be nice to see. There were a lot of people on the train a few weeks ago. Higher speeds would be a force multiplier, leading many more to take the train for drives under 500 miles.

[mattm]

Even 90mph is plenty fast. The key is reliability. If people can count on the train showing up on time and delivering them on time without complications, they will use it. Equally important is frequency of service, because having just one train go by each day at a really inconvenient time drives down usage.

Consider the Amtrak route across the Northern Plains. It's reliable, and even though it only runs once a day it's packed. The alternative is driving for miles and miles across the plains in whatever the weather.

Actually higher speeds are an impediment in my book. The freight railroads barely tolerate 90mph track because they have to have cab signals leading all their trains. The higher speed means that they wear the track faster, particularly in the curves, because the track will be banked for comfortable passenger service. The freight traffic at 60 or 70mph will lean in too far and cause excessive wear on the inside rail. They won't even touch 110mph track, so you have to have extra tracks just for passenger in that case.

I think it's great we're still talking about this option. Patrick Simmons has been working tirelessly on this project for a long time. However, we're never going to see federal funding. We can't even keep the interstate system in repair anymore. NC and VA are going to have to spring for this all by themselves.

Also, don't expect passenger rail to make any profit. It never did, except in a very few rarified instances, and only when you ignored the big picture, and only in the heyday of passenger rail before 1960. However, for all the times I've heard the words "money-losing" flung at Amtrak, it still does quite well. The system fare recovery rate is 80%, which is far better than almost any other mass transit entity, especially in the US. Imagine how well they could do without always being starved of capital?

[ChiefJoJo]

FYI, Indy Q&A with Patrick Simmons of the NCDOT Rail Division.

Estimated costs are $7 million a mile; from Charlotte to Washington, D.C., it would cost about $3.2 billion.

Q: What will this high-speed service look like, and when can we expect to ride it?

We are focused not on speed per se, but on mobility for our citizens. So as we make improvements to the railroads, we will achieve top speeds of around 90 mph between Raleigh and Charlotte [up from 79 mph today]. From Raleigh to Richmond, we'll achieve 110; drop back to 90 as we connect into Washington; then in the Northeast Corridor, they achieve top speeds of up to 150.

Q: How will that compare with flying to Washington? Will a train get me there faster?

You'll get there in an equal amount of time, but an advantage is, you will arrive center-city. Rail won't compete directly with aviation, but rail will have an advantage for trips of 300 to 500 miles or less.

Q: If this summit goes well, what effect will it have on the debate about rail service?

We hope it gives a lift to our elected officials as they consider funding options. There is legislation now before the Congress. Sen. [Richard] Burr is a primary sponsor; we hope Sen. [Elizabeth] Dole will also support it when it comes to the Senate floor. We need to develop the partnerships to make the investments-partnerships with the railroads, with adjoining states, and with Congress.

The summit is today, so if anyone attends, plesae report... the funding situation is a a huge impediment, but I think ultimately, rail service would be popular to DC and the NE if it can be made reliable, especially given the higher price of gas, increasing traffic congestion on highways, and increased security and travel delays at airports these days.

[monsoon]

Gosh, I can't imagine that Elizabeth Dole would lift a finger to support it, but I guess stranger things have happened.

The sad thing about this is that since we started this forum, which has 4 years and 2 months ago, the state of NC has not done anything to change the basic train service that runs across the state. We still have the same two trains lines that leave Raleigh and CLT then turn around and return at the end of the day that we had in 2003. (Next day for the CLT - NY run) During that period the plans to add rail to the west were permanently shelved and while they have done studies on the east part, not really anything has happened as far as I know.

I really wish the state would move more towards bringing just basic reliable rail service to the cities within the state but that seems to be on permanent hold as well. I wonder how much the plans to HSPR is holding that back.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's the story from News 14 on HSR.

• Planning will be finished in 2010
  
• Construction could start by 2013 to 2015, only with federal support ($3.2B)
  
• funding remains a big obstacle (big suprise huh)
  
• The most likely first line would be between Charlotte and Raleigh--trip would take about 2.5 hrs
  

[rooster8]

The N&O has a story on the conference: Speedy Trains Foreseen In Southeast

Look for a quote from our good friend David Hartgen. Apparently he thinks rail travel is only for old folks wanting to relive their youth.

Edited October 23, 2007 by rooster8

[ChiefJoJo]

NCDOT Rail has just finished $6.5M in improvements to the NCRR corridor in W. Durham. Every little bit helps in increasing reliability for passenger rail traffic between Raleigh and Charlotte.

[orulz]

It also looks like they're wrapping up (or have wrapped up) a project to install bi-directional signal bridges at more frequent intervals on the NCRR between Fetner (Cary) and Boylan (Raleigh) as well as a new, higher-speed turnouts at Fetner Junction. This will allow for 79mph operation in both directions on both tracks. As of today, it looks like there are still some new ribbon rails to be installed in the vicinity of Fetner, but all the new signal bridges appear to be up and operational.

[ChiefJoJo]

It also looks like they're wrapping up (or have wrapped up) a project to install bi-directional signal bridges at more frequent intervals on the NCRR between Fetner (Cary) and Boylan (Raleigh) as well as a new, higher-speed turnouts at Fetner Junction. This will allow for 79mph operation in both directions on both tracks. As of today, it looks like there are still some new ribbon rails to be installed in the vicinity of Fetner, but all the new signal bridges appear to be up and operational.

Apparently the work is finished now. Here's the N&O article.

I would think such a short segment would not make much of a dent in scheduling (can they really get up to 79mph between ~10 mile stops?), but moreso in reliability along the line.

[sax184]

Apparently the work is finished now. Here's the N&O article.

I would think such a short segment would not make much of a dent in scheduling (can they really get up to 79mph between ~10 mile stops?), but moreso in reliability along the line.

I googled the acceleration of the F59-PHI engine that pulls the Piedmont, and found .67 miles per hour per second. That means you can get to 79 mph within 1 minute 56 seconds. There's probably a shorter period of braking at the end, so I assume you could cruise at 79 for 4 to 5 minutes. With the same numbers, you could get to 110, the top speed of that engine, in less than 3 minutes. At those higher speeds, I think the 10-mile stop spacing starts to hurt you in bigger time tradeoffs per stop.

[monsoon]

^The reason for not doing it of course is that such acceleration is extremely hard on fuel consumption and the stops hard on the braking system which is also a costly consumable if over used. My guess is that knowing they are going to have to stop in such a short a span they don't try to get the train to top speed.

[orulz]

It's actually about an 8 mile ride from Raleigh to Cary. When the train is accelerating, they already accellerate at full throttle (I believe you'd call that "notch 8" in railroad speak) but stop accellerating at 60mph, which they seem to reach somewhere around NCSU. Might as well leave it at full throttle a few seconds longer to get up to top speed and save 30 or 45 seconds trip time. I believe that they mostly use dynamic braking rather than friction braking except for the last few MPH, so the braking system is technically not a "consumable" per se... well, maybe that's not right, because the brakes do burn fuel...

I fully expect that they will run the trains at 79mph between Raleigh and Cary now.

[sax184]

^The reason for not doing it of course is that such acceleration is extremely hard on fuel consumption and the stops hard on the braking system which is also a costly consumable if over used. My guess is that knowing they are going to have to stop in such a short a span they don't try to get the train to top speed.

From the NCDOT Rail Division website:

Install Bi-directional Signals and Upgrade Tracks (Boylan to Fetner) - milepost H73.0 - H80.9

Replace rail and crossties, resurface track and install bi-directional signals between Raleigh and Cary to further increase train speed and increase capacity. Also, the Fetner Junction (Cary) will be rebuilt and new #20 turnouts will be installed to increase train speeds from 25 to 45 mph, saving 1.5 minutes per train.

Estimated Cost: $ 7 million

Construction Schedule: Track work was completed in 2005. Work on the signals will be complete in fall 2007.

Result: The upgraded track allowed train speeds to increase from 60 mph to 79 mph, saving one-half minute per train. The new bi-directional signals will increase capacity and flexibility of the railroad by allowing trains to move more efficiently in each direction on each track.

[monsoon]

^That doesn't even begin to address what I had to say about fuel consumption.

[orulz]

Seems the decrease in trip time will trump concerns of fuel consumption. For example, most people don't think "Well, I'm only going to be on the interstate for 2 miles until my exit... might as well go 55mph instead of 70mph to save gas." The comparison from trains to cars is not apples to apples, but still. Accelerating for 20 or 30 additional seconds to get up to 79 would have a negligible impact on fuel consumption over the entire trip.

[monsoon]

^Well actually the feds reduced the nationwide speed limit to 55mph in the 1970s to 55mph for close to 2 decades in order to save fuel consumed by vehicles. I am going to guess that fuel management is a concern to the operating costs of trains.