Peyton cancels return of Cecil

[bobliocatt]

While clearly the Westside is still stigmatized, it has started to improve it's image. Builders putting up $300k homes is proof of that. Just the news of Cecil coming back had already stifled that. The Northside use to be stigmated too, but look at the growth there now. As for sprawl, I strongly question that a Navy base would have limited it in any way. The sprawl would have just moved northward and southward into Clay county. Additionally, the sprawl might just as likely "jumped over" the base into Baker County. That area has already seen a big spike in development before this issue arose. Mountains, very large bodies of water, and growth boundaries are about the only things that limit sprawl in my experience.

Very true, but it still would preserve or help create a greenbelt around Jacksonville's core urban area, as well as further encourage infill and redevelopment east of the base.

The talk of returning the base didn't stifle the Westside. The city's indecision and lack of ability to present the facts did. Until a study is done showing so, I still doubt Cecil being a Navy base or a busy airport would lower the price of homes on the Westside, given the far distance from the runways.

You can't discount the fact that these were very loud planes that would be taking off every couple of minutes. Boeing would not likely be in the same league as that. I also agree that this decision was premature, and a thorough and OBJECTIVE study should have been done. However, I do think a decision needed to be made within a month (or less) from now. Other cities were starting to recruit the current Cecil tenants. That, coupled with the "freeze" of development on the Westside was making this very deterimental.

Again this has more to do with poor representation by the Mayor's office. This would have been a non-issue if time was taken to preset accurate information from the very beginning. We'll never know if noise would have been a major issue because a study was never done, proving so. The only runway with homes within 1,000ft is the East-West. However the longer North South runways and their flight paths are clear for several miles. Limiting flying to the East would have eliminated any talk about noisy jets. I'm not against not having Cecil as a Navy base, but with 12,000 jobs on the line, every attempt to research and present as much positive and negative info about the deal should have been taken. As a mayor, Peyton owes that to the city he represents and this is why I believed his dropped the ball on this one.

The city wasn't just paying $50mm. It was forfeiting $175mm invested in Cecil since the '90s. That cost has to be considered too. Also, the Cecil field was a 1.5 billiion dollar asset. Granted, the Navy gave it to the city to begin with, but the city was under no obligation to give it back either. I don't see the benefit of bring in jobs just for the sake of jobs. I would rather save the schools, transportation, and other infrastructure capacity (what there is of it) for good paying jobs. The kind of jobs that can be filled by the Jacksonville High School graduates that go to college and don't come back.

Given the quick turn of events, I suspect that Peyton had some information that hasn't been made public, that made the decision to pull the plug easier. Wasn't there a study due soon, like next week? Maybe a preliminary draft showed that the Cecil senario wasn't as rosy as first thought. Just a guess though.

Other then him losing re-election votes on the Westside or the city council not giving in easily to letting him have $50 million, I doubt any new things were presented to change his mind so quickly.

At one point, it was estimated that the base would also contribute $1.5 billion a year into the local economy. If study was done to prove that, then giving up a $1.5 billion asset isn't too bad a trade-off.

So what's the average paying job for a Navy base? Nobody ever publically presented this. Peyton claims $66k, which we know isn't true, while Better Westside compares them to working at Walmart, which also isn't true. Taking the time to learn these answers and present these to the public, would have answered a lot of opinions still being tossed around today, that ended up factoring in to make him wimp out early.

[merlin]

A couple of comments on sevreal points made previous to mine...

I grew up on the westside... and remember when Cecil field was still active.... and the westside will probably never lose it's stigma. The comparison with the westside to the northside is a very good one, I hadn't really thought about it until now. The Northside has had a stigma for a long time, and i am sure still has one, but the growth in both areas, base or airport, is still thriving and will probably continue.

I don't necessarily live right across the street from NAS, however I do live within 3-4 miles of it... and yes I chose to live here for several reasons. Primary reason being that I live in an older more established neighborhood, from the late 60's and early 70's - better construction, bigger lots, space between houses, etc. The next reason were the schools, but that is a whole other discussion that has already run it's course. NAS does not bother me at all. Honestly, I heard more plans from NAS when I lived in Argyle for 3 years than I do now, and I am way closer to the base.

The westside is growing and growing for the better, yes... no one will doubt that, however, that stretch of 103rd, Brannon Field, etc.. are severely behind other areas of town seeing extreme growth and increase. That side of the westside is still very much rural compared to the rest of Jacksonville.

As for Mayor Peyton... This is just another short sited decision IMO. The guy either needs to grow a set, or get them back from his wife, and make some hard decisions that might not be the silver bullet answer right now, but in 5 years, maybe 10.... really be what the city needs. The guy needs to think beyond his term... and is about what is best for the city over several years or a decade, not about what popular opinion is today or tomorrow. Point proven by the courthouse.... the longer this thing sits, the more it is going to cost when it finally does get underway. Had he made a decision earlier, the thing could easily be well out of the ground by now.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

[Florida]

its tough to tell who's winning this one... everyone is making good points!

[asonj23]

NO, THANKS

Mayor pulls the plug: Jacksonville won't back Navy's return

By GREGORY RICHARDS, The Times-Union

A ride the day before through Jacksonville's Westside was a key factor in deciding Thursday to end a campaign to bring Navy jets from Virginia to Cecil Field, Mayor John Peyton said.

Read the Rest

[bobliocatt]

Thanks a lot Peyton

Navy feels snubbed, military's backers say

Peyton's decision on Cecil may halt future ideas like a nuclear carrier, at Mayport or the Naval Air Depot's chance to get more work because the majority of planes it works on now will be retired by the end of the decade.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._20086111.shtml

[asonj23]

And Virginia has to meet its obligations to establish a program to roll back the housing encroachment around Oceana by March 31, McLaughlin said. If they don't meet those obligations the Navy could still consider Cecil Field, he said.

It looks like the Navy could still bully their way in. I hope Peyton is ready for that debachle!

[bobliocatt]

Given the quick turn of events, I suspect that Peyton had some information that hasn't been made public, that made the decision to pull the plug easier. Wasn't there a study due soon, like next week? Maybe a preliminary draft showed that the Cecil senario wasn't as rosy as first thought. Just a guess though.

I though you giving him too much credit with this comment. Here's the proof.

The study never had a chance to be completed......

But some were less pleased with the decision.

Gov. Jeb Bush, who did not respond to an interview request, said in a statement that he was "disappointed" in the decision.

Jacksonville City Councilman Lad Daniels, chairman of the council's Military Affairs Committee, said he was disappointed that the option for the jet base was off the table before the impact could be fully studied. Only in recent weeks had the council begun to study the issue in-depth.

"We are elected to be a deliberative body that considers any issues that come before us in detail," Daniels said. "And to understand all sides -- we never gave ourselves the chance on this one."

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._20085918.shtml

Other interesting quotes

But retired Vice Adm. Mike Kalleres said Peyton "caved in."

Peyton rebutted any charges, saying listening is an important part of leadership.

"I have listened to the concerns of citizens in this county and believe we have made the right decisions," the mayor said.

Instead of just relying on what the Westside residents were saying, Kalleres said Peyton should also have gone to the top officials in the Navy and asked them if they wanted to reopen Cecil Field.

"All that would have cost was an airline ticket to Washington," Kalleres said. "With this decision, my concern is will he fight for the carrier or wuss out?".................

However, Leenhouts said he was disappointed with Peyton's political will and thought he had the strength and character to answer the tough questions put forward by the Westside residents.

The mayor defended himself against Leenhouts' comments by saying, "I think it was very clear the community did not have the appetite for this project, and we made the right decision."

Leenhouts, Stearns and Kalleres had hoped the mayor would have put the issue up for a referendum so all the residents could vote on whether the city should get the base................

U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., regretted that Peyton withdrew his support, said Dan McLaughlin, the senator's spokesman. But the BRAC recommendations are soon going to be passed in Congress, he said.

And Virginia has to meet its obligations to establish a program to roll back the housing encroachment around Oceana by March 31, McLaughlin said. If they don't meet those obligations the Navy could still consider Cecil Field, he said.

"Then we will have to re-examine today's decision," McLaughlin said.

U.S. Rep. Ander Crenshaw, R-Fla., called Peyton's decision unfortunate. However, he said there remains more to the process, and that will come from a national security standpoint.

"In the Navy and at the federal level we want to have the best training environment for our pilots and the best quality of life, and Cecil could still be the best place to meet those requirements," Crenshaw said. "It's premature until March 31."

[RiversideGator]

This is yet another example of Peyton's vacillation and inept decision making. It has been obvious from the start that he is in WAY over his head (no height pun intended). See also his actions on the courthouse, Jaguars, Landing et al. Maybe he can run off the Jaguars AND the Navy now. When is the next election?? I am almost ready to do something I rarely do - vote for a Democrat.

[Viper]

Can a mayor be impeeched? Can Delaney run again?

These are obvious rhetorical questions that just reflect what I'd like to see happen.

Rant, rant, rant, courthouse, rant, Jaguars, rant, rant, Shipyards, rant, rant, Landing, rant, rant, rant Cecil, rant, rant. You get the just of it.

[vicupstate]

I though you giving him too much credit with this comment. Here's the proof.

The study never had a chance to be completed......

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._20085918.shtml

Other interesting quotes

This is what I based that comment on. This is from the T-U's Oct. 15th edition (last Saturday):

The University of West Florida report due next week is expected to show the jobs solely at a new Cecil Field base would average $61,000 a year, Peyton said. Total employment in 2011 -- the year the base would return fully -- would be 31,000 jobs, according to a preliminary list of findings provided to the Times-Union.

In all, Cecil with the Navy would have a $2.6 billion value to the gross regional product local economy, the initial report said.

But details on how the results were calculated were uncertain Friday. The author, professor Woodrow Cushing, didn't returns messages seeking comment. And some of his results varied from previous reports about Oceana.

I don't have an inside info. on the report or anything, but obviously Peyton had at least an "initial report". The article also said the report was due 'next week', which is this week. My guess is that Peyton saw some or all of the report.

Now whether that changed his mind or not, is pure conjecture on my part.

[bobliocatt]

^Okay now I understand where you're coming from. On the surface the basis of that report seems to have little to do about noise and lowering of property values and the quality of life on the Westside. However, the direct quote in today's article from the Councilman in charge of conducting the study of local issues show that it wasn't finished or close to being complete.

On the other hand, Peyton's replies back to comments basically calling him a "wuss", show that he made a very important decision, that clearly needed further study, premature and mainly based off a small group of NIMBYs high on emotion, instead of facts data and analysis, which is what the studys would have brought to the table.

[vicupstate]

I agree that there was a rush to judgement, and whatever the decision, it SHOULD be based on facts and logic not emotions alone.

I hope that this report and any other findings by the city on this issue are released. After all, the taxpayers paid for it. It might answer a lot of questions in my mind and I'm sure others as well.

I would also like to see that all this attention to Cecil and the Westside doesn't just subside. Instead of merely being REACTIVE, the city,and the Westsiders should use this opportunity to be PROACTIVE about what they WANT the Westside to become. Channeling all the energy that these folks are obviously capable of, into ways to plan for future growth, prevent negative impacts from Cecil's development, develop access to the huge preservation lands in that area, etc. could pay big dividends not only for the Westside but the entire city.

Task 1 would be for the city to limit development in the critical areas around Cecil's runways, as Lakelander suggested. The next task would be to determine why Boeing and Daimler/Chryler's didn't choose Cecil, and determine what can be done to prevent the next big fish from getting away. Hint: Widen Chaffee-Brannon sooner rather than later.

I'm sure some of the Westsiders in this forum can think of some other good tasks for such a effort to undertake.

[jjoshjl]

You know,

I am tired of trying to give the guy the benifit of that doubt...

I saw the news confrence he did yesterday and it was clear that the reason he backed out was because of NIMBY's.

A few people cry and its tied up for months at best, cancelled at worst. This si what he did with the Courthouse, This is what happened with Shipyards, MAN hes he ever dragged his feet with the Landing. now this?

I dunno. He's not killing Jax's growth, but he is definantly hindering it...

I admitt, I had mixed feelings to begin with, but i wouldnt have based my judgement on the opinions on a few people and that is what he did...

What reay burn me is that as much as we disllike the way he is handleing Jax, you nwo he'll get reelected...

Oh well..

Cheers guys

[Florida]

again I ask.... are mayoral elections in Jax partisan?

[RiversideGator]

again I ask.... are mayoral elections in Jax partisan?

YES. Peyton is a Republican.

[Florida]

Has Jax been a republican stronghold?

[vicupstate]

again I ask.... are mayoral elections in Jax partisan?

The candidates run by party, but if the first election does not produce a 50% + 1 vote winner, there is a runoff between the top two. In a hotly contested race with multiple candidates, an outright winner is unlikely. That is what happened last time, when the seat was open. The top two could both be Republicans, both Democrats, or one of each.

Personally, I have never considered Peyton a shoo-in for re-election. The recent poll by UNF showed he had well under a 50% 're-elect' number, which political pundits view as a sure sign of vulnerablity. The controversy around Cecil only makes him more vulnerable, IMO.

There is still plenty of time left before the next election (sometime in May 2007, I believe), but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it became a hotly contested race.

[Viper]

Has Jax been a republican stronghold?

Check out this handy listing here of all Jacksonville mayors going back to 1832. Party affiliation is colored red or blue for easy referencing. Between 1888 - 1995, No republican was ever elected mayor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayor...ille%2C_Florida

[Florida]

WOW. So did Jax just get tired of the democrats?

[Viper]

Well, The ideologies of Democrats and Republicans have in many ways completely switched from one party to the other. Basically, many years ago democrats were todays republicans and vice versa so that clarifies the older generations of democratic stranglehold. The more recent decades of Democrats, who knows why they won out so much. Perhaps some of the other forumers with more history in Jax can tell you.

[Florida]

Thanks for that info.

I'm more interested in what happened post 1995 when the Republicans took over city government.

[Viper]

Delaney was simply The Man. Dem/Rep..didn't matter. We all kinda liked the guys vision. Peyton was supposed to follow through with those visions that Delaney started but mini-mayor Peyton can barely see over his desk.

[Florida]

LOL! Can't see over his desk! That's terrible! But funny!

[vicupstate]

WOW. So did Jax just get tired of the democrats?

The Republican control of the Mayor's office is no different than the state as a whole, or the Southern US as a whole. Since the end of Reconstruction (late 1800's) until the 1980's, Democrats were by and large in control of all southern states, Florida included. Starting largely in the '60's, Republicans have been gaining strength steadily, eventually taking a majority of offices in the late '80s and '90s. It was not that long ago that Democrats controlled the Governorship and both chambers of the FL legislature.

Republicans are the dominant party of Jacksonville and Florida, no doubt, but given the fact that both US Senators are Democrats, and the closeness of the 2000 presidential election, a GOP victory is not a certainty in state elections.

Others would probably disagree with me, but I don't think it is impossible for a Democrat to be elected Mayor of Jax. That Democrat would have to be well-funded, and have salient issues, but that isn't impossible IMO. Prosecutor Harry Shorstein would be an example of such a candidate.

[Florida]

I apreciate all of the answers However, I guess what I find most interesting is that in a highly urban area such as Jacksonville, there is a republican dominance. That's usually not the case if you look at patterns around the country.

What was Peyton's position on Economic/Downtown Development when running for Governor? Has he recieved credit for projects already in the works before he came to office?