Raleigh Marriott City Center Hotel

[RiverwoodCLT]

Charlotte

The 700-room Westin Charlotte offers a premiere Uptown location in the heart of the city's financial district. A convenient trolley stop whisks guests to the city's hottest dining and entertainment district. A number of attractions are within minutes of the hotel including the shops and restaurants of Historic South End, the Charlotte Convention Center, and Bank of America Stadium, home of the Carolina Panthers. The new Charlotte Bobcat Arena is just a trolley ride away.

Raleigh, what you need to do first is put in a trolley line in first to serve Raleigh. Take it out to NC State over to Cameron Villige and back downtown. Do Hillsboro St. like South End in Charlotte, with a trolley system and you will have a winner.

You have ther areas that could come later. Plan High Density along the line and you will have a system that works.

[Damien]

Maybe it's just me, but I would imagine the hotel would be lit pretty well. I think it could be a very dramatic addition to the night skyline the way P.E.'s 2nd building is. Its a little boxy and plain during the day, but in the night sky it looks really cool

[ncwebguy]

The city/CAT already *has* trolley cars, but doesn't use them as it should... I know when they used to go around downtown, it seemed like there were kids just hanging out on it yelling at everyone they passed by, which made it undesirable to ride.

If they ran a route that went down Blount by Moore Square to Lenoir to McDowell to Davie to Harrington to Hillsborough to Oberlin to Pogue to Clark/Peace to Glenwood to Hillsborough/Morgan back to Blount, with two trollies running to increase frequency, they could cover most of the hotspots downtown and pick up the NC State/Cameron Village crowd.

The route would go right by the big hotels -- the new Marriot and Lafayette (I hope!), close to the Sheraton, the Velvet Cloak/Holiday Inn, and Clarion.

The city and/or CAT seem to only rent the trollies for weddings and Oakwood tours lately, though, so this is probably just wishful thinking

[RiverwoodCLT]

I would love to see Raleigh get a real trolley line from uptown out to ??? in Raleigh. It would give the base for bigger things to come.

Raleigh has many directions it could go with Light rail. Along the line build high density to support the LRT. Raleigh could do a start up line with out Federal money. You must show the Feds that you are serious about mass tranist.

This would give Marriot a selling point to convention prospects. Make it fun for the people in town for a convention.

[MR-2]

The city/CAT already *has* trolley cars, but doesn't use them as it should... I know when they used to go around downtown, it seemed like there were kids just hanging out on it yelling at everyone they passed by, which made it undesirable to ride.

If they ran a route that went down Blount by Moore Square to Lenoir to McDowell to Davie to Harrington to Hillsborough to Oberlin to Pogue to Clark/Peace to Glenwood to Hillsborough/Morgan back to Blount, with two trollies running to increase frequency, they could cover most of the hotspots downtown and pick up the NC State/Cameron Village crowd.

The route would go right by the big hotels -- the new Marriot and Lafayette (I hope!), close to the Sheraton, the Velvet Cloak/Holiday Inn, and Clarion.

The city and/or CAT seem to only rent the trollies for weddings and Oakwood tours lately, though, so this is probably just wishful thinking

Yes, I was wondering about those. Is anyone here familiar with Denver's downtown mall bus service (I don't know what they call it, or how extensive it is, but I remember riding it and finding it extremely useful). Something like that going along Fayetteville street would be excellent. Obviously then it should be linked up with Glenwood South and Hillsboro. Frequent stops, frequent buses. It's just short-distance transport that makes being a pedestrian a lot easier.

[mer-ceel]

Talking About Politics

Check this out - :Tale of Two Hotels"

[Damien]

that article doesn't seem interesting enough to be posted in 2 threads.

[Skyybutter]

boooorrrrrriiiinnggggggg. I hate it when I can look at a building and tell you where the elevator is. Not that I think a daring hotel that turns out to be an eyesore is the answer (like Charlotte's enormously disappointing John Portman entry, the Westin

),

but AT LEAST give us something interesting! This Marriott thing looks like the Raleigh phone book on its edge.

I think the westin is a bit boring as well. I would have much rather seen a hotel not so wide but about 20 stories higher. Charlotte missed a grest opportunity at a true high-rise hotel with this one. Who knows how long before a hotel with as many rooms will be built in Center City.

[RiverwoodCLT]

The Adam's Mark Hotel has been sold and will close in December. I could see a high rise hotel soon, due to the closing of the Adam's Mark. There is land across from the convention center might be the next place for one.

[paletexan]

Interesting read in the News & Observer today on things the city council does not like about the current Convention Center Hotel plans:

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/376876.html

To paraphrase:

They dont like the use of synthetic stuco (EIFS) on higher floors.

Main entrance does not front Fayetteville Street.

Lenoir Street side is a blank solid brick wall (view from Progress Energy Center for the Performing Arts).

Pedestrians will see brick, and no stone.

I personally feel these are valid points and like the scrutiny being raised by city council since this structure is being built with $20 million in public funds.

[Justin6882]

I really would like to see some nice color renderings of this thing. I really hope city council complains and beotches about the design enough to get what we deserve, especially spending $20mil of taxpayer money.

[Jones_]

The city/CAT already *has* trolley cars, but doesn't use them as it should... I know when they used to go around downtown, it seemed like there were kids just hanging out on it yelling at everyone they passed by, which made it undesirable to ride.

If they ran a route that went down Blount by Moore Square to Lenoir to McDowell to Davie to Harrington to Hillsborough to Oberlin to Pogue to Clark/Peace to Glenwood to Hillsborough/Morgan back to Blount, with two trollies running to increase frequency, they could cover most of the hotspots downtown and pick up the NC State/Cameron Village crowd.

The route would go right by the big hotels -- the new Marriot and Lafayette (I hope!), close to the Sheraton, the Velvet Cloak/Holiday Inn, and Clarion.

The city and/or CAT seem to only rent the trollies for weddings and Oakwood tours lately, though, so this is probably just wishful thinking

I have talked in depth in other threads about a six route trolly system downtown that is free. essentially three north/south lines and three east west lines. they would be free as a perk for downtown visitors and especially downtown residents!! Line one along Peace from Krispy Kreme (Oakwood) to Cameron Village. Line two along Hillsborough/Morgan New Bern Edenton from NCSU near Porters to the Post Office on New Bern. Line three to serve the CC, Boylan Heights and City Market (still thinking gon the actual route) Line 4 From Krispy Kreme to Shaw. Line 5 along Salisbury and Wilmington to serve the State gov't complex during the day and to get Progress Center theater goers up and down Fayetteville St at night. Line 6 Dawson/McDowell from the new TTA site on Lane to the CC. Piece of cake.

[MR-2]

Interesting read in the News & Observer today on things the city council does not like about the current Convention Center Hotel plans:

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/376876.html

To paraphrase:

They dont like the use of synthetic stuco (EIFS) on higher floors.

Main entrance does not front Fayetteville Street.

Lenoir Street side is a blank solid brick wall (view from Progress Energy Center for the Performing Arts).

Pedestrians will see brick, and no stone.

I personally feel these are valid points and like the scrutiny being raised by city council since this structure is being built with $20 million in public funds.

I agree. I think Raleigh got a bad deal on this hotel. This site has lots of potential. If you have to pay them $20 mill for them to build something downtown, they could at least be decent about it and build a proper four-star establishment. This convention center is going to be North Carolina's convention center. It's going to service the economic advancement that's already occurring here. If it's going to have a hotel, it needs to be a status symbol. Stucco is something you'd put in the suburbs next to Walmart and Hardee's. This thing should be glass.

If anything, I'd like it to resemble the BB&T building in Winston-Salem. That's the perfect shape and size for the spot, and it'd look cool and fit well with the skyline. It would serve the convention center well.

This Mariott has gone from 'decent enough' to way below expectations. I think they should nix it and look for a better deal.

[avery]

This Mariott has gone from 'decent enough' to way below expectations. I think they should nix it and look for a better deal.

I don't know that they need to nix it, but if the city leaders are unhappy, then they ought to redesign it. It would be nice if they did away with the pizza-box look and gave it some shape. I agree that we don't need a hotel that will look dated a decade from now. I think more glass would also help this building. A new entrance on Fayetteville Street would look nice. I still think the Sir Walter's entrance on Fayetteville looks awesome. It would be nice if they could incoporate a little more grandeur in its design.

[paletexan]

I don't know that they need to nix it, but if the city leaders are unhappy, then they ought to redesign it. It would be nice if they did away with the pizza-box look and gave it some shape. I agree that we don't need a hotel that will look dated a decade from now. I think more glass would also help this building. A new entrance on Fayetteville Street would look nice. I still think the Sir Walter's entrance on Fayetteville looks awesome. It would be nice if they could incoporate a little more grandeur in its design.

I agree with your sentiments.

It's hard to tell anything from the schematics and current proposal. In fact, i have not heard anything interesting about the design or facilities themselves. Does anyone know anything noteworthy about the current proposal, if anything?

[Subway Scoundrel]

I will add my 2 cents here. The drawings don't look that nice but it is hard to tell what it will really look like. I understand the city's concern on the entrance to Fay St. In my humble opinion, this hoel looks, exactly what it is suppose to looke like, a convention center hotel. I

n my travels, I have stayed in several of these CC hotels and many that are in medium sized cities, are on a small lot and are basically shaped like a shoebox. I think this is the case since most convention centers take up so much space and the goal is get as many people in the attached hotel and provide services on a wholesale need. The people in the city want it nice on the outside but the main reason for it being there and where the service that will be provided is on the inside.

Many of the CC hotels can be really nice on the inside and what makes it nice is the way the inside flows to the CC and flows to buildings around. What makes the area/hotels around the convention center nice and presentable are the other hotels around that come in and feed off the business. I don't think this hotel is some architects dream, but to be honest, either is the Progress II building or for that matter, the new RBC building. It does depend on the glass and materials and this is where the city will have to watch every move by Noble to make sure it gets as much as it wants for the $20M. This is crunch time in the post RFP.RFQ process and this is to be expected.

I don't think there is any way Raleigh or any other city would get a limestone or nice rock face building for a convention center attached hotel. I think the more interesting point is the Hatem planned Hotel project next door.

[ChiefJoJo]

I don't have much of a problem with stucco on the upper floors (who's gonna see it anyway?), but I do agree with the blank wall on the Lenoir St side as well as the Fayetteville St entrance. We need no back doors and street level activity on all sides. This is a key feature of the DT renaissance, per Livable Streets.

[avery]

I will add my 2 cents here. The drawings don't look that nice but it is hard to tell what it will really look like. I understand the city's concern on the entrance to Fay St. In my humble opinion, this hoel looks, exactly what it is suppose to looke like, a convention center hotel. I

n my travels, I have stayed in several of these CC hotels and many that are in medium sized cities, are on a small lot and are basically shaped like a shoebox. I think this is the case since most convention centers take up so much space and the goal is get as many people in the attached hotel and provide services on a wholesale need. The people in the city want it nice on the outside but the main reason for it being there and where the service that will be provided is on the inside.

Many of the CC hotels can be really nice on the inside and what makes it nice is the way the inside flows to the CC and flows to buildings around. What makes the area/hotels around the convention center nice and presentable are the other hotels around that come in and feed off the business. I don't think this hotel is some architects dream, but to be honest, either is the Progress II building or for that matter, the new RBC building. It does depend on the glass and materials and this is where the city will have to watch every move by Noble to make sure it gets as much as it wants for the $20M. This is crunch time in the post RFP.RFQ process and this is to be expected.

I don't think there is any way Raleigh or any other city would get a limestone or nice rock face building for a convention center attached hotel. I think the more interesting point is the Hatem planned Hotel project next door.

I posted a while back a similar sentiment. I've stayed at other CC hotels across the country and not too many of them differ from what Raleigh has on the drawing board right now. However, I am not sure that these other cities requested $20M is taxpayer's dollars either. That being the case, I do think Raleigh has a little more say so in it's design. By all means, we shouldn't settle on something and always reflect on what could have been. I'm not so sure that it is just a materials issue either. Faux stucco on the upper floors may not be a bad alternative to cutting costs in order to splurge a little more on design or expensive elements at the street level. I think it is entirely possible to acheive a nice look without limestone or granite all them way up however some of this should be partially included.

Raleigh doesn't want to be another CC city. If so, it could spell disaster. With most markets our size already having a CC, it's Raleigh's turn to outdo them. We need industries to look at Raleigh and say we need to host here as opposed to _______. The hotel is an integral part of this. Raleigh was really behind the ball compared to other municipalities our size. It used to be a weakness and now it can really be a strength.

Check out this link to a .pdf file for Oregon's CC hotel proposals. All of these look much better IMO. Although they are 600 rooms, I can still see this for Raleigh at 400 rooms.

http://www.pdc.us/pdf/ura/occ/hq_hotel/eva...rt_exhibits.pdf

[Subway Scoundrel]

I don't have much of a problem with stucco on the upper floors (who's gonna see it anyway?), but I do agree with the blank wall on the Lenoir St side as well as the Fayetteville St entrance. We need no back doors and street level activity on all sides. This is a key feature of the DT renaissance, per Livable Streets.

I agree totally. (sounds like a valley grrl )

I wonder and guess that the reason they are limiting entrance is for security. Keeps out the rift-raft and constant flow of "hourly workers" from the yellow pages. That can really hurt or help your hotel business. I guess they think it takes more people to man more doors, even though the elevators and stairs are the access points to the room and the gates to their safety.

Think about the hotels (3 star plus) you have stayed in and the hotel really start to seal the entrances, especially at night. I think the problem is this is a 4 sided hotel where other hotels and CC hotels may have accessible sides on 2 or maybe 3 sides. (some sides may be a road to parking deck, backed up against the CC or restaurant windows with entrance on the other side.) I don't mind a side of the building without an entrance, as long as it has something other than wall like windows of a cafe or something.(even a service entrance. I would like to see what could be on that side of the building instead of a wall.

But Fay St needs a big presence on the front.

JMHO

[ericurbanite]

The good thing about this story though is that Raleigh city officials are now being pro-active about issues like these. I truly beileive that they are realizing that investments in the downtown are now paying off and I am glad to see that a side to an entrance is being payed so much attention too. I remember about 2 years ago reading and hearing about that Raleigh was stuck in its ways and did not want change or was slow to approach change. Thanks for that Raleigh officials!!!

The thing about this hotel is why does it have to look like every other convention center hotel?? Also why can't they push mixed use on this site as well. This is prime real estate! I think the site directly west across the street from the new convention center (old sir walter chevy dealership) should serve as the hotel site, and the old convention center site should be pushed for private development(mixed - use) using the same process as site 1 and 4. I know its too late now but I think the outcome would have been better inless they can go back to the drawing board on this hotel.

[ChiefJoJo]

^the old Sir Walter block is going to be an outdoor amphitheather (or some other venue for outdoor civic venues) in the near term. Ultimately, it's an expansion block for the new Convention Center.

[urbanesq]

The thing about this hotel is why does it have to look like every other convention center hotel?? Also why can't they push mixed use on this site as well. This is prime real estate! I think the site directly west across the street from the new convention center (old sir walter chevy dealership) should serve as the hotel site, and the old convention center site should be pushed for private development(mixed - use) using the same process as site 1 and 4. I know its too late now but I think the outcome would have been better inless they can go back to the drawing board on this hotel.

Actually I think the location of the hotel is great, and there will be a coffee shop and restaurant at street level, so that's good. I agree, though, that the design is absolutely character-free. Completely uninspired box. Boooor-ing.

[avery]

Actually I think the location of the hotel is great, and there will be a coffee shop and restaurant at street level, so that's good. I agree, though, that the design is absolutely character-free. Completely uninspired box. Boooor-ing.

I have not been on Fayetteville Mall but once this entire year. I guess it kind of shows you the lack of draw to that part of downtown. I've been to Glenwood South several times, the performing arts center, a few restaurants downtown and unfortunately the courthouse. There really is not a draw to Fayetteville Street at this time. I did go to Port City Java for a tall caffe mocha which was awesome

My question is regarding the future of this street. It is the primary focus to the city's rebirth and its success is crucial at nixing all of the naysayers about the money spent on tearing up the mall. What kind of things would you like to see on the newly opened Fayetteville Street that will bring you there? How much available space is actually on Fayetteville Street for development? Are there already existing businesses sweating out the construction who plan on sticking around once the street is complete? If so, they can't be a big draw. How much opportunity for small business development is there and what do you guys see shaking out?

[Subway Scoundrel]

The thing about this hotel is why does it have to look like every other convention center hotel??

Very simple reason why-----MONEY Even with the extra $20M, you don't get something "out of this world." The same with the CC. I saw where a person asked the architect if this "was the best property he had ever done and would be world class" and he hesitated and then said..... "For the money that is being spent" and then hesitated and said......."yes".

It could be a lot better but "good", "better", "best", "outstanding", "incredible" all move north in cost and this hotel is still a business and must make sense financially....even with a $20M booster shot to the arse from the city.

[avery]

Very simple reason why-----MONEY Even with the extra $20M, you don't get something "out of this world." The same with the CC. I saw where a person asked the architect if this "was the best property he had ever done and would be world class" and he hesitated and then said..... "For the money that is being spent" and then hesitated and said......."yes".

It could be a lot better but "good", "better", "best", "outstanding", "incredible" all move north in cost and this hotel is still a business and must make sense financially....even with a $20M booster shot to the arse from the city.

True, but $60 million can buy you a hotel that is a little more inspiring. Albeit, with succo or not...

New color renderings on the city's website: http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt...otel_Design.htm