Pittsburgh compared to Seattle

[blueblackcat]

Unions & tax laws killed those industries in America. The solution isn't more 100 year old govt. & policy. Pittsburgh is dying not because of its great assets, it is dying because it is in an awful human/government environment currently. I was hoping Rendell would help things; I guess not. Maybe Gov. Lynn Swann can do a better job & finally fix PA so it can prosper again.

Please read some history to see what working conditions and quality of life were like in cities before unions. This isn't 100 year old economics, it's exactly what's going on in all those third world countries we're importing from and exactly why Costco is so good to work for while Walmart is so terrible. The pressure to revert to slave labour conditions is there just as ever, no need to look further than the "Gulf Opportunity Zone."

http://www.agobservatory.org/headlines.cfm?refid=77191

The "business climate" hoax is just that, a hoax. Up there along with trickle down theory, supply side economics, and Bernante's "savings glut" current account deficit.

Both taxation and unions have minimal-non-existant impact on business relocations and even less to do with the collapse of heavy industries. Try looking towards exploitative "free" trade agreements for a change. Nothing a mayor or a governor could do to creat incentive against that. Try looking towards the current account deficit, with the government borrowing billions of dollars from abroad and doing a great deal to depreciate home tradeable goods, killing those industries and pushing the economy towards service industries and other non-tradeables. And those "killer" property taxes in Pittsburgh that you mentioned are actually below national average, so it does nothing to explain Pittsburgh's below average growth.

As far as the steel industry, part of the reason is it simply matured. Recycling steel using electric arc furnaces is less labor intensive and cheaper than starting from scratch and about half of US steel comes from scrap. The only steel not going into recycling is what gets permanently locked inside infastructure and buildings. The steel plants in Pittsburgh were entirely geared towards extraction, not recycling. Another part of the reason is that many of the mineral deposits simply peaked. That's why Pittsburgh, home of US Steel, took an even bigger hit than the rest of the country during the Regan era deficits. Now Detroit is starting to take a big hit, too, with Bush's deficits.

The CAB deficit, along with it's push towards service sector industries, can also be to the blame for the housing bubble effects, the reason why prices are outpacing population growth and gdp growth combined. That's why housing is going to be the fist to take a big hit if the CAB comes in for a hard landing, and those service industry oriented cities which are literally riding on the demise of the Pittsburghs out there and the deficit, they could potentially face disasterous upheavals. It's got nothing to do with unions or taxes. Actually it's got to do with the lack of taxes combined with overspending. Sooner rather than later, it's going to have to get fixed and the Seattles, San Franciscos, Atlantas etc will have to face the music.

[Sundodger]

Please read some history to see what working conditions and quality of life were like in cities before unions.

We are in a different time. Unions aren't not serving the original purpose. Unions hurt workers more than they help them these days. In our current society, they are way overextended & unneccessary in most areas.

This isn't 100 year old economics, it's exactly what's going on in all those third world countries we're importing from and exactly why Costco is so good to work for while Walmart is so terrible.

Nope. Other countries have a labor advantage over us. Simple economics. As for Costco & Wal-Mart, two entirely different models. If you don't like working at Wal-Mart, don't, it's a free country.

The "business climate" hoax is just that, a hoax. [/;i]

Wrong. It is killing PA & upstate NY. My family left; it wasn't the weather that chased us away. My taxes are way lower & my quality of govt. service is way better. It is no hoax; just add up the money and see.

Up there along with trickle down theory, supply side economics, and Bernante's "savings glut" current account deficit.

Reality isn't a hoax.

Both taxation and unions have minimal-non-existant impact on business relocations and even less to do with the collapse of heavy industries.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Try looking towards exploitative "free" trade agreements for a change.

Free trade allows countries to maximize their advantages for their gain. Do you want another great depression & limit free trade?

Nothing a mayor or a governor could do to creat incentive against that.

Cut regulation & taxation & Pittsburgh would be a boomtown.

Actually it's got to do with the lack of taxes combined with overspending.

There isn't a lack of taxes or revenue; we have current record high govt. revenue. Speniding is what needs to be cut back.

Sooner rather than later, it's going to have to get fixed and the Seattles, San Franciscos, Atlantas etc will have to face the music.

You are comparing Seattle to the wrong places. People are fleeing SF to move to Seattle because of our more liberal tax laws & lower property values. Atlanta isn't seeing much housing price appreciation at all which is aiding growth (affordability).

[Sundodger]

'PghUSA' date=Oct 30 2005, 10:46 AM' post='235526]

On a serious note though, I don't think that a nation free of unions is a thing that we want.

Crony monopolistic mandatory unionship is worse. We need free choice. We need competing unions & no more mandatory membership.

I would love to see Harrisburg change the way the state does business and am a big proponent of that but even with that said I would imagine it costs more in real dollars for parking taxes, property taxes, school taxes and don't even talk about taxes on clothes in Seattle and Portland.

Cut spending, cut taxes, the place will grow & so will revenues. Why does greedy govt. need all of that money?

Also Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania do have income taxes, if I am correct Oregon and Washington do to.

Nope. I guess you aren't reading me much in this thread. I explain the tax situtation earlier; no income tax in WA, no sales tax in OR. People who live in Vancouver, WA make out like bandits if they shop in OR. I live less than 2 hours away from Portland so I buy my big ticket items there.

A lot of people like to dismiss Pittsburgh as an obselete and overtaxed city, upon closer inspection it is neither.

It isn't obsolete but it is overtaxed. I would never dare move there from here with the current tax rates. If PA ever fixed govt., it would be a boomtown again.

[PghUSA]

^^I am in agreement with you on the state (commonwealth really) role in taxing and biz regulation, and again we each have representatives in Hburg but it is not something Pittsburgh can change locally overnight. I have always been a strong advocate for change in Harrisburg, locally if given the chance Pittsburgh could thrive again like it did back in the boom era. There is a theory out there (rightly or wrongly) that Philadelphia and east state--while not booming like a sunbelt city--is enjoying the riches garnered from it's rich position as halfway between DC's powerbrokers and NYC's stockbrokers and have no incentive (some say have a disincentive since it would free cross-commonwealth rival Pittsburgh to achieve its potential) to change the outdated and cumbersome tax, business and labor structure in the commonwealth. "As long as we are a half point better then Jersey those Morgan Stanley guys will commute to Bucks county" etc.

Your right Sun, where that leaves the rest of the less populated, thus less represented Commonwealth is in a less competitive position nationally and globally.

I tend not to subscribe to the above conspiracy theories about Hburg's logic, however if I was a state senator from the Philadelphia's burbs in Bucks Co. and had as a constiuent base Manhattan and Philly center city commuters, I wouldn't be going out of my way and alienating interest groups so Pittsburgh could better compete with Cleveland or Atlanta.

Problem is the vast majority of Hburg legislators are from Eaststate, and while very loyal Pennsylvanian's and very good legislators they don't have the political stomach to deal with changes in the power structure that won't directly benefit their eastern district in the next election cycle.

I have sometimes wondered if Pittsburgh could have been better as part of West Virginia as it orginally was. A good text on some of these things is the compilations of stories "The Disinherited" the name of the author escapes me but it's a good read on answering why some things in Hburg defy all available logic, both Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are two very different cities and when one gets its way the whole state is usually mandated to go along. I love Philly, but it's hard to be both "eastcoast" and "renewable rust belt" in the same legislation.

[Sundodger]

I have sometimes wondered if Pittsburgh could have been better as part of West Virginia as it orginally was. .

Not like this will ever happen but here is the "new 50" -

[PghUSA]

Cool map . . .

Pittsburgh shouldn't only have WV's panhandle though, the Virginia colony originally went as far north and west as Dayton and Columbus Ohio . . . Pittsburgh still has lots of influence in places like Martin's Ferry, E. Liverpool, Youngstown, Zanesville, Steubenville, etc. with TV/Radio/Sports and major infrastructure.

Also another curious thing about the map up above is Charlotte should have its own state, Tampa/Jax/Miami too.

About the tax situation I found a pretty good link comparing the states: http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

[PghUSA]

Pennsylvania Sales Taxes

State Sales Tax: 6%

Tax free items: food; clothing, text books, heating fuels, prescription and non-prescription drugs.

Maxium Total Local Sales Tax 7%.

Gasoline Tax: 30 cents/gallon

Diesel Fuel Tax: 36.4 cents/gallon

Gasohol Tax: 30 cents/gallon

Cigarette Tax: $1.35/pack of 20

Oregon Sales Taxes:

State Sales Tax: None (Does Oregon have a maxium Local Sales Tax Amount????????)

Gasoline Tax: * 24 cents/gallon (max 3 cents local taxes=29 cents/gallon) Pretty equal?

Diesel Fuel Tax: * 24 cents/gallon (max 3 cents local taxes=29 cents/gallon)

Gasohol Tax: * 24 cents/gallon (max 3 cents local taxes=29 cents/gallon)

Cigarette Tax: $1.18/pack of 20

Pennsylvania Personal Income Taxes

Tax Rate Range: Flat rate of 3.07%

Personal Tax Exemptions: None

Standard Deduction: None

Medical/Dental Deduction: None

Federal Income Tax Deduction: None

Oregon Personal Income Taxes:

Tax Rate Range: Low - 5%; High - 9%

Income Brackets: ** Lowest - $2,600; Highest - $6,500

Number of Brackets: 3

Personal Tax Credits: Single - $151; Married - $302; Dependents - $151

Additional Credits: Credit equal to 40% of federal credit

Standard Deduction: Single - $1,670; Married filing jointly - $3,345;

Additional Deduction: Single over 65 - $1,200; Married over 65 filing jointly $2,000

Medical/Dental Deduction: Full only for age 59 or older, if itemized.

Federal Income Tax Deduction: $5,000 ($2,500 if married filing separately)

Property Taxes

Property taxes are levied by local governments

Not to exceed 30 mills on the assessed valuation of the property.

[Randy@Tacoma]

I know its been a year since anyone has responded to this forum.... BUT

Last year, I had the same impression the majority of this country did on Pittsburgh: One of the worst places to be in the US... along with Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis... etc...

That has changed IMMENSELY!!! I now am fascinated by this city. I was born and raised in Seattle. I love Seattle, but my God, its not the best place ever. Seriously, Seattle is nice and all, but, it cant compete with Pittsburgh when it comes to density, or transit use, or architecture. On the same token, Pittsburgh cant compete when it comes to business climate, cosmopolitanism, etc. Seattle has the image of a more progressive city and the media supports that claim. Pittsburgh, whether or not it is as progressive as Seattle, the media paints this image that Pittsburgh isnt.

There is no point in trying to convince anyone that Pittsburgh or Seattle is better than the other. Whoever started this forum was stupid for that... Pittsburgh is GREAT! Seattle is GREAT! Lets leave it at that. And as for weather, Seattle is affected by the westerly winds and its marine location. Contrary to what some people might think, Seattle is actually farther north than Pittsburgh, look at map! The Pacific Ocean helps warm us up during the winter and cool us off during the summer. Seattle has a rain season (It goes on for about half of the year!) and a dry season. Pittsburgh has a continental climate. It has even precipitation throughout the year. In the summer, it gets thunderstorms that Seattle doesnt get while in the winter, it gets snowfall that seattle doesnt get. Both places are about just as coudy as the other. I can figure out why seattle is.... the ocean, but Pittsburgh? I cant figure out why it has the cloud cover that we do.... anyway, back to my main point... both cities are GREAT!!!

[Sundodger]

There is no point in trying to convince anyone that Pittsburgh or Seattle is better than the other. Whoever started this forum was stupid for that...

Actually this thread started out of another discussion in a seperate thread and it was about whether Pittsburgh was more similar to Portland or Seattle, not which city is better. I hope that clears things up.

[Randy@Tacoma]

Not really, but thanks anyway

[mercurypa]

Thanks for the great comments. Please come and visit some time. We would love a new positive representative in Seattle.

I agree that both cities have their positives and negatives. But both places are great. I moved here from LA and I love it as long as I stay in the city.

[blueblackcat]

I spent two weeks in Seattle this summer and I came away very impressed. Of course there wasn't a cloud or drop of rain for those two weeks and record high temperatures for the region, so going down to the beach probably had a different feel to it than usual. And some of the things I saw were downright hillarious, like the cop on a megaphone yelling at drivers who were playing their music too loud. But it's a gorgeous city like no other I've ever been to. The mountain ranges, islands, forrests, all very nice. And the downtown area looks very well maintained, Seattle does a much better job than Pittsburgh to showcase the structures that they have.

That said, the traffic was terrible and you can't really walk around the city like you can Pittsburgh. Irregardless of density, Seattle doesn't seem to be as mixed-use.

Also, from talking to the people I know there, it's hard to find affordable housing in the region, let alone in the city. They said the only reason a lot of people holding down regular joe schmoe jobs can afford to live where they do is because they've owned the properties for decades before the housing boom. From what I understand, Seattle is also facing an aging population, without enough young people to replace aging workers. Which might put it into a little bit of a bind in the coming years if property values don't come down.

I also think that the city is very comparable to Pittsburgh. Either city is so far one of a select few in the US where I know I'd be happy to live in.

[tooluther]

If the restard of this thread causes a certain poster from Seattle to come back and start with the old antics...I'm leaving!!!

[urbanophile]

I can figure out why seattle is.... the ocean, but Pittsburgh? I cant figure out why it has the cloud cover that we do.... anyway, back to my main point... both cities are GREAT!!!

The cooling effect of the Great Lakes coupled with the consensation effects of cold air rising over the hills and mountains of western PA creates the clouds which hover over Pittsburgh.

[Inkdaub]

One thing that is similar in Portland and Pitt are the hoods of Shadyside(Pitt) and Nob Hill(Port).

[Randy@Tacoma]

That makes some sense, and I considered that, but Pittsburgh isnt on the Great Lakes and the cities that are: Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Buffalo arent as cloudy as Pittsburgh. Nonetheless, I like the cloudiness, It makes me feel too exposed when its too sunny.... LOL

[urbanophile]

That makes some sense, and I considered that, but Pittsburgh isnt on the Great Lakes and the cities that are: Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Buffalo arent as cloudy as Pittsburgh. Nonetheless, I like the cloudiness, It makes me feel too exposed when its too sunny.... LOL

It's the combination of the cold air coming off of the lakes and that cold air rising over the hills (thus condensing) that does it. The other cities mentioned above are flat and thus don't have that effect. Also, Chicago and Milwaukee are west of the lakes and thus aren't as affected (even though they lie next to a lake). Typically, winds blow eastward so the cold air doesn't blow off of the lakes and onto them. Even if they did, the lack of hills spares them some of the cloudiness since the cold air has less opportunity to condense.

[Randy@Tacoma]

Thanks urbanophile. That really made sense! :-)

[Sundodger]

I spent two weeks in Seattle this summer and I came away very impressed. Of course there wasn't a cloud or drop of rain for those two weeks and record high temperatures for the region, so going down to the beach probably had a different feel to it than usual.

Not really. The summers are always dry and cloudless. The only difference this year was the mini heat wave we had pushing temps. almost up to 100. Generally we are in the 80s. It still hasn't rained. I am sick of hand watering my yard and my lawn is long dead. They forecasted rain late this week and we got none.

We pretty much have two seasons; cool and wet and warm and dry with a transition period between the two in spring and fall.

" From what I understand, Seattle is also facing an aging population, without enough young people to replace aging workers. Which might put it into a little bit of a bind in the coming years if property values don't come down. "

Maybe in Seattle proper, but that is not the case in the suburbs. The city of Seattle proper is evolving into a place without families and few middle class, ala San Francisco. The wealthy empty nesters, young childless urban professionals, and connected subsidized middle class and poor will dominate the city.

This is being created by a combination of factors:

- high costs forcing people away, except connected folks who get subsidies (and as the subsidies go up, the costs get higher, and the death cycle of affordability and dependancy gets worse!)

- NIMBYs making added density more expensive and regulative

- Govt. extortion of developers to pay for pet charity programs and other vote buying schemes

- mediocre schools run by morons

If the Seattle area dumped those awful urban growth rules, we will instantly see more affordability. It is a crime they can't build near the freaking Microsoft HQs yet can build massive subdivisions 50 miles + outside of Seattle. The insanity needs to stop and hopefully it will this Nov. if voters are smart enough to pass I-933.