Delphi asks for new pay scales

[PBJ]

Not looking to start another Union/Non-Union flame fest, but I see Delphi is asking for some pretty large cuts

Wood TV Article. Looking at those numbers blows my mind

[torgo]

Not looking to start another Union/Non-Union flame fest, but I see Delphi is asking for some pretty large cuts

Wood TV Article. Looking at those numbers blows my mind

Yah, those are pretty large cuts. I doubt the union will accept most of them.

[designcritic]

Not looking to start another Union/Non-Union flame fest, but I see Delphi is asking for some pretty large cuts

Wood TV Article. Looking at those numbers blows my mind

Those are large cuts but please tell me why an unskilled worker deserves to make $27 per hour and receive a cadillac benefits and plan? There are many people in various professions with Master's degrees that don't receive that level of pay and benefits.

[PBJ]

Yah, those are pretty large cuts. I doubt the union will accept most of them.

Yeah I can't imagine many people wanting that situation..

"Hey honey, how was work"

"Oh, you know, pretty good. Took a 60% pay cut"

But I can definately see why these places are having a real rough time keeping thier heads above water.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Those are large cuts but please tell me why an unskilled worker deserves to make $27 per hour and receive a cadillac benefits and plan? There are many people in various professions with Master's degrees that don't receive that level of pay and benefits.

What is the litmus test that affords the verb

[PBJ]

This is a toughy too. B/c sure, I could send all my mfg or tech trade work (day to day worker type stuff) over seas to asia or someplace else, for a HECK of a lot cheaper than any US citizen, and probably get comparable work. What I would hope the union in Delphi's case sees is that there ARE other people around the world that will do it for $1/day, and leave them without a job. Does it suck to take a pay cut, yes, but i'm guessing standing in line at the unemployment office is even worse. Delphi is offering a solution that works for the company, and for it's US employees.

If my boss said to me "Hey, we need to cut your pay, or we're outsoucing or finding someone who'll work for cheaper" and there aren't a lot of other jobs in my area/skill set, i'll think twice about being stuborn. And the way I see it, there's not that many manufacturing jobs in this state that have tons of open positions offering 18-30/hr...

[designcritic]

What is the litmus test that affords the verb

[GRDadof3]

If currently un-skilled workers updated their skills and that put them in the same job market as me, I say "Bring It On!". Competition is a good thing I can't for the life of me figure out why this would be a bad thing.

These cut proposals are pretty broad. It will probably end up somewhere in the middle (probably closer to what Delphi is proposing as opposed to what the union wants).

[PBJ]

If currently un-skilled workers updated their skills and that put them in the same job market as me, I say "Bring It On!". Competition is a good thing I can't for the life of me figure out why this would be a bad thing.

That's how I feel as well. Manufacturing is cheap to setup and supply labor to. What we need is more people comming up with the best processes, technologies, and new ideas to keep our country competetive. If you want to go to school, get a job, and try and take my job, come get it, i'm more than willing to advance myself to stay competetive in my field, and probably will be a few steps ahead of you anyways

We as a country came up with all these new ways to manufacture things in the last 150 years, then sat back and started collecting money. What we didn't realize is that the rest of the world was watching and learning from what we built.... now, not only can we find cheap labor in other parts of the world, but we're competing on a much more global level.

[twoshort]

Just don't cry when the company on the edge of bankrupcy wants to cut wages and then yell at the current administration when the jobs go overseas because the unionized workers won't budge.

Exactly what I was going to say.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Well, no one said anything about blaming the administration, designcritic, yet, your injection of the administration into the debate looked like a preemptive defensive posturing. This phenomenon is apolitical, however. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with capitalism and global free market economics. However, it

[twoshort]

Oh, I didn't want to defend the administration. I simply meant I don't want to hear the employees beotching when a $27.00/hr button-pushing job gets cut because the company can't make a profit.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Oh, I didn't want to defend the administration. I simply meant I don't want to hear the employees beotching when a $27.00/hr button-pushing job gets cut because the company can't make a profit.

Well, they are damned if they do and damned if they don

[torgo]

Well, they are damned if they do and damned if they don

[GRDadof3]

Many manufacturers are upgrading their systems so much so that experience is not as big of a factor as it used to be. That's why productivity is higher than it has ever been in this country. Most modern factories (that will survive) have gone the Japanese way of multiple levels of error-proofing. And with the standardized ISO systems, most operators can walk into a plant and be trained and up and ready to go in about a week.

As far as upgrading skills and economics, I don't see the world as a finite pie with only so many pieces to go around, but an ever-expanding pie. A standard supply/demand model is far too simple to use in the real world.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Many manufacturers are upgrading their systems so much so that experience is not as big of a factor as it used to be. That's why productivity is higher than it has ever been in this country. Most modern factories (that will survive) have gone the Japanese way of multiple levels of error-proofing. And with the standardized ISO systems, most operators can walk into a plant and be trained and up and ready to go in about a week.

As far as upgrading skills and economics, I don't see the world as a finite pie with only so many pieces to go around, but an ever-expanding pie. A standard supply/demand model is far too simple to use in the real world.

Well, whether it is one day or one week, turnover reduces efficiencies. Furthermore, it increases the cost in the HR section of the company to constantly hire new employees. Moreover, if the long time workers do stay, their morale will be so low that it is bound to effect productivity.

You might not see the world as a finite pie, but it is at any given moment in time...finite. At this moment in time, there is only a given demand for workers in the economy. The fact that the pie is growing does not address the needs at a specific moment in time. Furthermore, economics and the actions verbs of consumption and production require an energy source to fuel, as do all actions or movements. Currently and for the foreseeable future, economies are hyper dependant upon FINITE fossil fuels. So to the degree that economic activity is constrained by finite resource supplies, one can argue that the pie is indeed finite, because the pie is predicated upon the energy supply. Growth cannot be supported without the energy to fuel the growth.

[designcritic]

Well, no one said anything about blaming the administration, designcritic, yet, your injection of the administration into the debate looked like a preemptive defensive posturing. This phenomenon is apolitical, however. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with capitalism and global free market economics. However, it

[monsoon]

Just for another perspective on this.

I looked at that article on the proposed new benefits for Delphi. It really isn't a question of exporting these jobs out of the country, but rather exporting these jobs out of Delphi. There are non-union plants all over the Southeast (and I suspect elsewhere) where people are making exactly the same kind of components as those made at Delphi but don't get the benefits and wages of the unionized folks at Delphi.

These plants build parts for the very significant Japanese and European car manufacturing industry that exists in the USA now and have even started to supply Ford. If GM didn't source a lot of its partsat Delphi due to the sell off agreement Delphi would have made these moves long ago.

[HolidayInnExpress]

The thing is, there is never going to be a huge gain on the supply side because not many people are willing to give up six years and many thousands of dollars to get there. Thus, I feel pretty safe where I'm at.

That might be true....for now....but I can almost guarantee that in a few years....you won't be feeling so smug.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Just for another perspective on this.

I looked at that article on the proposed new benefits for Delphi. It really isn't a question of exporting these jobs out of the country, but rather exporting these jobs out of Delphi. There are non-union plants all over the Southeast (and I suspect elsewhere) where people are making exactly the same kind of components as those made at Delphi but don't get the benefits and wages of the unionized folks at Delphi.

These plants build parts for the very significant Japanese and European car manufacturing industry that exists in the USA now and have even started to supply Ford. If GM didn't source a lot of its partsat Delphi due to the sell off agreement Delphi would have made these moves long ago.

I think that

[GaryP]

Hey HIX, do you work for a union? Just wondering where your positions come from. Also are you in favor of isolating developing countries from those that are already developed?

[PBJ]

I think that

[monsoon]

I agree. While it is one thing to import fully assembled consumer items from China and Latin America, it is quite another to supply subcomponents to an assembly plant here in the USA. Just in time inventory and build to order assembly makes it very difficult to mass import parts from overseas. So as long as there are auto assembly plants in the USA, there will be companies such as Delphi building subcomponents for those plants. However Delphi's wages are far above what the standard is now for that type of work in the US.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Hey HIX, do you work for a union? Just wondering where your positions come from. Also are you in favor of isolating developing countries from those that are already developed?

What do you mean? Do I work for a union or am I a union worker or both? I am not going to answer that question right now, but suffice it to say....I put truth and facts above self interest in my analysis and I grant or project the same is true of you. So, regardless of whether or not I am connected with union, pursuit of truth and objective analysis makes it a moot point.

[PBJ]

What do you mean? Do I work for a union or am I a union worker or both? I am not going to answer that question right now, but suffice it to say....I put truth and facts above self interest in my analysis and I grant or project the same is true of you. So, regardless of whether or not I am connected with union, pursuit of truth and objective analysis makes it a moot point.

hehehe, nice side step...

Either way I appreciate your insights....

Metro

My company is 100% non-union in the plants, and I think you're correct, b/c our people start around the $8 or $9 range, and i think $10.50 for 3rd shift. I have also worked in a union shop and I think starting there was like $12 or $15 a few years ago, can't remember the exacts.