Worcester City Square

[oliver]

here a nice sky shot of the existing mall:

[oliver]

current mall vs. citysquare:

Current mall:

Citysquare:

[jeepcj85]

Where was this penthouse with roofdecks for under $200k???? I dont know of any places like that for that price.

[oliver]

Where was this penthouse with roofdecks for under $200k???? I dont know of any places like that for that price.

It's 531 Main Street, the old Filenes department store. It used to be an apartment building, they are converting them into condos (Federal Square Condominiums). They had two penthouses with rooftops, one of them is sold, I don't know about the other one. They also have one loft for sale for $150K, very nice, but without parking space. It is still in a half shady area, but it is very close to the Common park and the planned citysquare. So it certainly is a great investment. Let me know if you need the name of the Broker.

[jeepcj85]

To build the mall and office towers, the City took by eminent domain and demolished an entire brick and brownstone neighborhood with street level retail. Something like 50 buildings including 6 theaters and 6 hotels were taken. Entire streets were eliminated and a huge wall (the mall) was built around downtown.

This project came on the heels of another 60s "urban renewal project". The area south of Franklin St betweein Portland St and Mcgrath Blvd was taken by eminent domain as a urban renewal area. The entire area was bulldozed. Torn down were (9) single families, (22) two unit, (26) 3-4 unit, (11) 5-8 unit, (8) buildings with over 8 units, (24) rooming houses, a school, and a firehouse. 1200 people were evicted and 534 units of housing were lost. Five whole streets were taken off the map. Again, most of the buildings were brick and brownstone with street level retail. Today on the propertly sits a YWCA, funeral home, public library, strip mall, a former hotel and lots of surface parking. This project was ENTIRELY seperate from the mall project above.

And that ladies and gentlemen, is where Downtown Worcester went. Very sad.

[TheBostonian]

Wow, that's devastating.

[oliver]

It is terrible - if you see old pictures of Worcester, it used to have a beautiful and driving downtown, it even used to have a streetcar system. The population peaked at 200,000 - now, 40 years later, it is down to approx. 170,000.

[Cotuit]

I posted a thread a while back that featured some pre-290 photos of Worcester from the Telegram-Gazette.

[jeepcj85]

In addition, most buildings in the canal disctrict and elswhere were reduced from 4-6 stories down to 1-2 stories, or demolished altogether. This was because the old system of taxation was based on square footage, not value. As the population declined in the 50s and 60s the building owners found many upstairs apartments vacant, but were still being taxed on the space. Many decided to cut their losses and demolished the upper floors. Ill try to post some Water St before and after photos at some point.

[oliver]

In addition, most buildings in the canal disctrict and elswhere were reduced from 4-6 stories down to 1-2 stories, or demolished altogether. This was because the old system of taxation was based on square footage, not value. As the population declined in the 50s and 60s the building owners found many upstairs apartments vacant, but were still being taxed on the space. Many decided to cut their losses and demolished the upper floors. Ill try to post some Water St before and after photos at some point.

Would love to see those photos. Talking about high buildings, does anybody have an explanation why Worcester does not have a skyline? All comparable size cities like Providence, Hartford and even Springfield have nice Skylines, while Worcester only has a few lost 80's - towers.

[jeepcj85]

Its true it was a depressed area, but the Salem Sq clearing was concieved in the late 50s and cleared in the early 60s. Crime and slums at that point were not anything like Main and Chandler areas today. The point is though, that if the buildings, even some of them were still there, and the area revitalized, a huge area of walkable urban landscape would exist.

Providence resisted the urge to tear down vacant marginal area near downtown. For awhile the area was an eyesore, but as times got better, the buildings were renovated, and the area has retained the original urban fabric. Not to say that in Worcester it couldnt have gone the other way, breeding crime.

I will say though, my parents, who were middle class catholic school students, took the bus downtown with their friends everyday to hang out in the late 50s and early 60s. The area was very safe at that time.

[KRC]

Its true it was a depressed area, but the Salem Sq clearing was concieved in the late 50s and cleared in the early 60s. Crime and slums at that point were not anything like Main and Chandler areas today. The point is though, that if the buildings, even some of them were still there, and the area revitalized, a huge area of walkable urban landscape would exist.

Providence resisted the urge to tear down vacant marginal area near downtown. For awhile the area was an eyesore, but as times got better, the buildings were renovated, and the area has retained the original urban fabric. Not to say that in Worcester it couldnt have gone the other way, breeding crime.

I will say though, my parents, who were middle class catholic school students, took the bus downtown with their friends everyday to hang out in the late 50s and early 60s. The area was very safe at that time.

That does seem to be the consensus on downtown Worcester during that timeframe. When I moved to downtown Worcester in 1989 the last vestiges of what used to be downtown were just dying out. During the depression of the early 1990's the business community in downtown Worcester was devistated and never recovered to the level where it was. Most economic "boom" activity moved to other locations within the city, like the biotech park. Over time the use for downtown declined and Worcester never figured out how to make a transition. Getting rid of Worcester Center is the BEST thing the city could do for itself. The Centrum, Convention Center and Med City all were great attempts; however, with Worcester Center smack in the middle breaking up the urban fabric of the city revitalization was an uphill battle.

[oliver]

I still don't think there will be any reason for people to want to go downtown. And that is the big stumbling block - they need a reason or desire to go there. And City Square really isn't providing that.

Cloudship, don

[virgo20]

Cloudship, don

[Cotuit]

I don't think Worcester will ever be a hot regional destination. But I see no reason why it can't attract a lot of residents to it's downtown core and attract businesses and entertainment that cater to those residents. Look at an area like Hoboken, NJ. It's not an area that people from around greater New York flock to as a destination. But it is a very happening and exciting place to live because of it's proximity to New York. Worcester can cash in on it's commuter rail connection to Boston, it's urban environment, and it's affordability in comparison to Boston and become a very livable urban enclave.

[virgo20]

I don't think Worcester will ever be a hot regional destination. But I see no reason why it can't attract a lot of residents to it's downtown core and attract businesses and entertainment that cater to those residents. Look at an area like Hoboken, NJ. It's not an area that people from around greater New York flock to as a destination. But it is a very happening and exciting place to live because of it's proximity to New York. Worcester can cash in on it's commuter rail connection to Boston, it's urban environment, and it's affordability in comparison to Boston and become a very livable urban enclave.

Agreed.....

[Cotuit]

When I said it wouldn't become a regional destination, I was thinking of New England as the region, i.e. I don't really think people will ever set out from the Cape or Portland, ME and head to Worcester. In the local region of Worcester County, and western Mass. in general, I can see it becoming a destination.

If the Canal District plan actually happens... well then, maybe we'll see it as a destination for New Englanders, the way places like Portland and Newport are.

[oliver]

Fix up places like pleasant st. And encourage some interesting stores instead of

I looked at a new condo development yesterday on pleasant street: http://www.whittierplace.net/

It is a beautiful 1800's building in the spanish section of Pleasant street. The developer is converting it into stylish luxury condos. The place is gorgeous. Even so the official sales haven't even started yet, 6 out of the 16 available units are already sold. I walked around the area for a while, its shady, but interesting, a bunch of Spanish stores and little restaurant in walking distance. The building was empty for a long time and is now being totally remodeled (even extended on one side). This is exactly the kind of development that Worcester needs.

[oliver]

Update about Citysquare:

[Germaine]

Is Worcester benefiting from it's commuter rail connection to Boston?

[jeepcj85]

most of those points are valid, however, Ive never had any trouble finding a parking spot to take the train. There is a parking lot opposite the station and the former largest parking garage in the world (when it was built) on the other side across Worc Ctr Blvd. Also they are building a new attached parking garage in the rear of the station with street level retail.

The trains ARE packed from Framingham in but you got on in Worcester and have a seat so who cares?!!!? Seriously though, more space is needed on rush hr trains.

The times are terrible for leisure travelers but usually workable for commuters. The number of round trips however will be doubled in the next few years once a deal or sale is worked out with CSX, who owns the tracks between Worcester and Framingham. Also, some of those increased trains would be express. The CSX ownership issue is the reason why half of the trains currently terminate in Framingham.

Ridership is currently about 1,500 riders daily out of Worcester and 20,000 on the line.

If trains ran more often and later at night (1140 to Boston and 1125 to Worc on wkdys; 1235 to Boston and 1100 to Worcester on wknds) I would certainly take the train more often. The only reason I dont use the train more often is because sometimes I would have to severely alter my travel times to take the train.

[jeepcj85]

The Citysquare garage is (or was) available to MBTA commuters for $30 for a monthly pass. Only a good option for regular commuters. CSX is not willing to give up the tracks, it was proposed that the MBTA either buy the tracks or build parallel tracks for trains to stage as others pass. I wish they would completely replace the line with an electric higher speed train with no grade crossings so the trip could be made in 45 mins, but thats just a dream right now.

[Recchia]

I took the train from (is it Grafton?) once, the stop right after Worcester (we were comin from Albany and I didn't wanna Amtrak it into Boston nor drive all the way there and pay to park in the city), and I can agree that it takes forever! I think it was almost an hour and fifteen minutes. Some express trains between the cities would be nice.

[jeepcj85]

Its about 1:15 from Worcester to Boston on the train. Driving is 50 mins to the city, plus travel within the city, and then parking. Probably about 1:00+. Express trains would be nice at commute times. A below grade crossing is really needed in Framingham to speed things up. Currently the train crawls to the stop downtown, and then crawls across 2 busy streets, tying up traffic in the meantime. If all grade crossings were eliminated, especially Framingham, it would be a HUGE HELP.

[jeepcj85]

I was thinking that a signal on the platforms at lesser used stations would be useful. A would be rider would have to push a button to alert the train to stop at non peak hrs. This would eliminate unnecessary stops and slow downs.