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Redman84

Glen-Tree vs. Expected RBC Tower

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So, the Glen-Tree project has been approved and everyone is anxiously awaiting to hear what RBC Centura has been planning. Do you think that now with the go-ahead approval for the Glen-Tree project, RBC Centura will feel compelled to builder taller than Glen-Tree? Just thought I'd get some opinions on this.

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Another comparision could come between the Reynolds Tower and Glen-Tree. What if because of this announcement Reynolds will look to up the height in order to compete. Didn't Reynolds say he was looking for a hotel and an office tenant, plus condos. Sounds like a pretty strong connection to Glen-Tree. RBC will not build big. If they do, they will need more tenants, plus maybe a hotel, and condos to make it the tallest in the city.

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If they didn't try to go larger than Glen-Tree because of its vicinity outside of Downtown and no need to compete, likely I would imagine them to go larger than the two existing towers we have now. If my thinking is correct, the only real logical place for a proposed RBC Tower would be in the location where the proposed 1st Citizens building was planned. Having it there would roughly split the distance between Two Hanover and Wachovia. But to even the skyline out, between the two buildings, wouldn't it only make logical sense to go taller than what we've got now? At least I hope thats the way this plays out.

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I seriously doubt they will go taller than Glen Tree just for the sake of being taller, but who knows. I'm with Rufus on this one, I think Reynolds will probably be more of a contender for Raleigh's tallest than RBC...so far I'm not getting my hopes up and would be happy with a 20-story from them, but, you never know!

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I seriously doubt RBC could fill a building that would be comparably sized to glen tree. I don't expect them to build anything higher than 15, maybe 20 stories. It could be less than that.

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I'm thinking with all the new 4* hotels going up now, the Reynolds building may not work out as hoped in terms of 30+ story scale of the bldg. Also, it's hard to imagine RBC being any more then anything in the low 20 story range even with condos and retail included. I think it's realistic that Reynolds will end up being around 15-20 and RBC will be around 20-25, although I hope they end up taller!

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I still think RBC will go for 25-35 stories. It sounds like RBC currently need 10-15 floors and they will probably add a few more for future growth. Add in some residential and I think you are looking at 25-35 stories. Just a guess...

As for Reynolds...who knows. We haven't heard jack on this project for months. Hopefully they wil still think big, but Mr. Reynolds said that you build these things to market. I'm not so sure the market will sustain 2 large towers unless another company plans to relocate downtown. I agree that residential is the key to attracting businesses dontown, but there are plenty of housing projects proposed already. Only so many people are going to move down there unless more jobs are available there. The convention center and hotel employees will most likely not be able to afford the pricetag on the condos on the drawing board now.

As for Glen-Tree taking some of the steam out of Reynolds? I don't think so. The Glen-Tree is residential and hotel. I think Reynolds is looking more for the corporate occupancy. I think 60 hotel rooms were mentioned and I think downtown can handle an additional 60 4-star rooms, especially with the convention center on the way. Crabtree market and downtown market are completely different.

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I still think RBC will go for 25-35 stories. It sounds like RBC currently need 10-15 floors and they will probably add a few more for future growth. Add in some residential and I think you are looking at 25-35 stories. Just a guess...

As for Reynolds...who knows. We haven't heard jack on this project for months. Hopefully they wil still think big, but Mr. Reynolds said that you build these things to market. I'm not so sure the market will sustain 2 large towers unless another company plans to relocate downtown. I agree that residential is the key to attracting businesses dontown, but there are plenty of housing projects proposed already. Only so many people are going to move down there unless more jobs are available there. The convention center and hotel employees will most likely not be able to afford the pricetag on the condos on the drawing board now.

As for Glen-Tree taking some of the steam out of Reynolds? I don't think so. The Glen-Tree is residential and hotel. I think Reynolds is looking more for the corporate occupancy. I think 60 hotel rooms were mentioned and I think downtown can handle an additional 60 4-star rooms, especially with the convention center on the way. Crabtree market and downtown market are completely different.

I also agree that downtown growth depends largely on the residential population increasing. The problem is that the people who would actually love to live downtown the most can't afford it. There are no projects in the works to develop affordable housing for people right out of college and people 3-5 years removed. I'm sure some can afford condos starting at 220k, but I don't think most people fall into that group.

This is a large demographic that would honestly get the most out of living downtown. Once you get much older than that, people tend to get married and start families. They don't have time to hang out downtown after business hours, and support resturants, bars, etc. There is nothing wrong with high-end residential projects, but somebody try to propose something a young professional can afford to buy.

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Does anyone find it odd that there are no apartments being planned? Why do you never see apartment projects being planned? Maybe the fear of it attracting the wrong crowd to the building? I don't know, but more affordable projects would bring an influx of people downtown that would certainly boost business.

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I also agree that downtown growth depends largely on the residential population increasing. The problem is that the people who would actually love to live downtown the most can't afford it. There are no projects in the works to develop affordable housing for people right out of college and people 3-5 years removed. I'm sure some can afford condos starting at 220k, but I don't think most people fall into that group.

This is a large demographic that would honestly get the most out of living downtown. Once you get much older than that, people tend to get married and start families. They don't have time to hang out downtown after business hours, and support resturants, bars, etc. There is nothing wrong with high-end residential projects, but somebody try to propose something a young professional can afford to buy.

I fully agree. As a member of the "young professional" population myself (age 25, work in IT at NCSU), I would consider buying downtown if there were things that I could afford. 220K, though, is WAY out of my price range. If there were condos being built that were at 150K or below, you could attract a lot more recent graduates looking to buy for the first time. I currently live near Cameron Village, which is nice in its proximity to both campus and Glenwood South, but something downtown would be great--I just can't afford it at the present time, and nothing reasonable seems to be on the horizon.

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^ I think because the rental market has been weak in general with low interest rates. If people can swing a 5.5-6% APR mortgage for a couple hundred more per month, for most it makes sense to do that versus renting. I do believe there could be a decent market for a rental property in the DT core though.

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Does anyone find it odd that there are no apartments being planned? Why do you never see apartment projects being planned? Maybe the fear of it attracting the wrong crowd to the building? I don't know, but more affordable projects would bring an influx of people downtown that would certainly boost business.

That would be another nice feature, I think the "wrong crowd" argument might be part of it. Then again, the existing phase of the Oberlin Court development (what replaced the Coker Towers idea) is 100% apartments. Despite the demand, they're not selling any of them, just renting. So maybe that's the start of another rental trend? The rental market seems oversaturated, but when you look more closely at it, that's due in large part to the glut of student-targeted rental properties that have gone up recently. If you don't want a 3 or 4 bedroom place in a complex that is mostly students, there haven't been many new options in or relatively near downtown lately.

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That would be another nice feature, I think the "wrong crowd" argument might be part of it. Then again, the existing phase of the Oberlin Court development (what replaced the Coker Towers idea) is 100% apartments. Despite the demand, they're not selling any of them, just renting. So maybe that's the start of another rental trend? The rental market seems oversaturated, but when you look more closely at it, that's due in large part to the glut of student-targeted rental properties that have gone up recently. If you don't want a 3 or 4 bedroom place in a complex that is mostly students, there haven't been many new options in or relatively near downtown lately.

I do see the rental saturation as part of it, but the same could be said for the condo market. None of these proposed developments are sold out either and we still see them popping up. I think apartments would do extremely well downtown. Not everyone can get a low interest rate mortgage if they are 25 and just out of college. Sometimes it takes a few years before they are ready to take on the responsibility of ownership. Renting would be a perfect option for them. I could see students and recent grads liking the vibrance of downtown and Glenwood South. It would certainly add to the job pool downtown and the socialness of the area.

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There are a lot of *affordable* houses close to downtown -- just not where you may want to live.

The "yuppie" story in the N&O mentions several neighborhoods in a transition phase a few blocks from Moore Square. I'm going to lead a walking tour (if anyone shows up) starting at the YWCA near the East Hargett/Swain intersection. Email this account name at yahoo.com if you are interested.

The NCSU downtown design studio will hopefully open the university's eyes to downtown... it would be cool if they and/or Wake Tech (see other thread) set up a "night classes for busy professionals" campus/building somewhere... there is all kinds of free parking in the decks going unused after 5. And it would be in reachable distance to the lower income residents on the east side.

As for RBC Tower, I think any of the three likely lots -- the east side of the existing convention center, the lot near Progress 1/south of Davie, and fomer First Citizens/south of Martin -- would be a good fit. They are all corner lots with opportunities for a bank branch and other retail on Fayetville Street, Wilmington Street, and the frontage of the east/west street that goes by it.

For the Reynolds building, Capital bank could be a good tenant, but I don't know how much space they'd need. They could also possibly go to the Quorum center, if the details are right. Two other southeast banks with small (for now) presences in Raleigh could make a bit splash if they could take 10+ floors of Reynolds -- Sun Trust (although they have a large presence in Durham already) and Regions Bank. Regions is larger in the "deeper" south, but now has a presence on Falls of Neuse, may be looking to expand, and Morgan Keenan (has their name on the 510 Glenwood Building) is a subsidiary... Anchoring a tower downtown would put them on the map the way RBC first was with arena naming rights, and now their DT tower.

If all this happened, downtonw momentum could go into overdrive!

If GlenTree stays as only residential/hotel, then this can all happen with no "either/or" mentality.

The land under the parking lot and Circuit City across Glenwood probalby got a *lot* more valuable yesterday, though, with the council's "anything goes if you show us the money" blessing. Will be interesting to see what happens there now. CC website says the address is 4601 Creedmoor, but Wake County Tax info doesn't list that as an address.

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^ I believe the Quorum Center is already leased fully by the Local Government FCU and something else. Also, there was an article in the paper today about Capital Bank moving into 333 Corporate plaza, renaming the building to Capital Bank Plaza and putting their name and logo on the building. They made it sound like a done deal.

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Does anyone find it odd that there are no apartments being planned? Why do you never see apartment projects being planned? Maybe the fear of it attracting the wrong crowd to the building? I don't know, but more affordable projects would bring an influx of people downtown that would certainly boost business.

The proposal for the Raleigh Office Supply site is supposed to be apartments.

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They should join forces and build a 40-floor mixed use tower on the First Citizens lot.

I know its just wishful thinking, but I'm all for that. I highly doubt either Reynolds and RBC would want to partner up in building a tower, but it sure would help out the skyline. If the two combined efforts and used the First Citizens lot and built taller than Wachovia and Two Hanover, it'd even things out. You would then two buildings of nearly equal size on either side of a taller tower, similar to the way the Bank of America tower sits in Uptown Charlotte. Now I don't suggest that we go and build a 60-story building like BOA tower because it would swamp everything downtown and look out of place, but something around 40-45 stories would fit just right. In terms the Raleigh skyline frome proposed Reynolds Tower and proposed RBC tower, I honestly believe it'd look better if the two just combined efforts to build one taller building. Having a 30 some story building on Hillsborough St. is just a tad too far out to really help downtown's true epicenter skyline. Then toss in lets say a 15 to 20 story RBC building, you honestly wouldn't really ever see it because of other buildings within the same range. Make it one building, and you've just made the most predominant tower downtown.

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The proposal for the Raleigh Office Supply site is supposed to be apartments.

That site directly fronts Glenwood Avenue, though, doesn't it? I can't see those apartments being particularly affordable. Though I suppose as long as they keep it below ~900/month for a 1-bedroom, it's not unreasonable for the "young professional" crowd.

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I know its just wishful thinking, but I'm all for that. I highly doubt either Reynolds and RBC would want to partner up in building a tower, but it sure would help out the skyline. If the two combined efforts and used the First Citizens lot and built taller than Wachovia and Two Hanover, it'd even things out. You would then two buildings of nearly equal size on either side of a taller tower, similar to the way the Bank of America tower sits in Uptown Charlotte. Now I don't suggest that we go and build a 60-story building like BOA tower because it would swamp everything downtown and look out of place, but something around 40-45 stories would fit just right. In terms the Raleigh skyline frome proposed Reynolds Tower and proposed RBC tower, I honestly believe it'd look better if the two just combined efforts to build one taller building. Having a 30 some story building on Hillsborough St. is just a tad too far out to really help downtown's true epicenter skyline. Then toss in lets say a 15 to 20 story RBC building, you honestly wouldn't really ever see it because of other buildings within the same range. Make it one building, and you've just made the most predominant tower downtown.

Keep in mind the Reynolds tower is proposed on land they already partly own, accross from Second Empire which they also own. You will not get a combined effort on the Old First Citizens lot. 15 Story buildings show up just fine on the skyline, especially along say Hillsborough Street. The Quorum juts upward quite nicely at only 13 completed stories so far.

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That site directly fronts Glenwood Avenue, though, doesn't it? I can't see those apartments being particularly affordable. Though I suppose as long as they keep it below ~900/month for a 1-bedroom, it's not unreasonable for the "young professional" crowd.
It fronts Boylan, not Glenwood, but it's just down the hill from Paramount, and only a block west of Glenwood, so yeah, you're probably right - not exactly "affordable." But apartments are not necessarily about affordability; building equity by buying is good but there are strings attached - so sometimes it just makes more sense to rent.

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I know its just wishful thinking, but I'm all for that. I highly doubt either Reynolds and RBC would want to partner up in building a tower, but it sure would help out the skyline. If the two combined efforts and used the First Citizens lot and built taller than Wachovia and Two Hanover, it'd even things out. You would then two buildings of nearly equal size on either side of a taller tower, similar to the way the Bank of America tower sits in Uptown Charlotte. Now I don't suggest that we go and build a 60-story building like BOA tower because it would swamp everything downtown and look out of place, but something around 40-45 stories would fit just right. In terms the Raleigh skyline frome proposed Reynolds Tower and proposed RBC tower, I honestly believe it'd look better if the two just combined efforts to build one taller building. Having a 30 some story building on Hillsborough St. is just a tad too far out to really help downtown's true epicenter skyline. Then toss in lets say a 15 to 20 story RBC building, you honestly wouldn't really ever see it because of other buildings within the same range. Make it one building, and you've just made the most predominant tower downtown.

I guess it is still possible that Reynolds is trying to lure RBC as a tenant? The only downfall to this scenario could be the buyout on the Highwoods lease I've read about. I still think we will see RBC building their own tower and Reynolds building one too.

I think the Reynolds project will happen. Isn't there a buyback option on that land? I think it expires shortly. I'm sure they will submit a proposal prior to this date, but the 32-story tower could be out of the mix since there has been no recent speculation on any corporate relocations to downtown outside of RBC and Capital Bank. Maybe they have something up their sleeve.

I don't think that any new building taller than Wachovia and II Hannover has to be on Fayetteville Street. I think this epicenter concept gets a little out of hand. A shift of 3-4 blocks to the west does not put anything out of place. As it is, there is only a couple of available lots left on Fayetteville Street anyhow. What happens once these lots are taken? With the Quorum to the west and Wachovia to the north, anything that splits this area seems fine IMHO. I don't think we can govern the exact placement of private initiatives to this extreme of option A or B only.

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15 Story buildings show up just fine on the skyline, especially along say Hillsborough Street. The Quorum juts upward quite nicely at only 13 completed stories so far.

From Hillsborough a 15 would be fine because its infront of everything. Same goes for Quorum. But I meant putting a 15 in the middle of downtown especially in the First Citizens location, I feel like it might would become lost among the other buildings in the area. Maybe it wouldn't. I would just think to even out not only the distance between the Wachovia tower and Two Hanover tower along Fayetteville St. but also to even out the height, building a tower of at least the same size or taller in the First Citizens location would be ideal.

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From Hillsborough a 15 would be fine because its infront of everything. Same goes for Quorum. But I meant putting a 15 in the middle of downtown especially in the First Citizens location, I feel like it might would become lost among the other buildings in the area. Maybe it wouldn't. I would just think to even out not only the distance between the Wachovia tower and Two Hanover tower along Fayetteville St. but also to even out the height, building a tower of at least the same size or taller in the First Citizens location would be ideal.

You do have a good point, in that the location is prime for something as tall or taller than the two current towers. You build a 15-story building there, you're stuck with it. While there may not be a lot of open lots downtown currently, though, with the lack of density, I'm sure there are sites where the current tenants could be bought out (and are not architecturally or historically significant). Plus, there are a decent number of parking decks downtown, one of those could become the site for a tower and the parking be integrated into lower floors...

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Add me to the list of recent graduates who would buy or rent in downtown if it was affordable. I love the inner city atmosphere and plan on working downtown. I would love to be able to walk to work, play, etc.

Somebody build an inexpensive apartment tower or two!

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