East Beltline Developments

[arcturus]

The beerqueer writes:

>You're right. At the time of construction, one of components of concrete wasn't available but construction moved on with a less durable component, knowing full well that the >lifespan of the concrete would be diminished. As someone who negotiates, reviews and approves contracts for a job, this is fairly appalling. Either the contractor is laughing all >the way to the bank or the state was too focused on getting that stretch of M6 completed. Either way its a terrible situation. 

 

EXACTLY.  

[Allison Slater]

On 8/22/2016 at 0:29 PM, Raildude's dad said:

Our legislators don't seem to get that voters do approve tax increases for schools, police, fire and roads.

Only when they tried, we didn't pass it and there was a lot of propaganda out there calling on them to cut wasteful spending instead.  (You can only do that so much before there's nothing left to cut that doesn't cause harm by cutting it)

[joeDowntown]

All- Housekeeping note. This thread is being sidetracked by Highway / Infrastructure talk. Can we please get back on topic, or start a new thread specific to Highway / Transportation issues. I'm happy to start a new thread if necessary.

Thanks!

Joe

[thebeerqueer]

Duly noted. Thanks for the reminder. 

My OCD is really excited about the potential of a Container Store in this development. 

[joeDowntown]

6 minutes ago, thebeerqueer said:

Duly noted. Thanks for the reminder. 

My OCD is really excited about the potential of a Container Store in this development. 

Haha. I've heard people freak out about the Container Store. I guess I'll have to experience it to understand.

I also bumped the Highway Construction thread to the top of the forum. Feel free to continue the discussion there. Good stuff, just want to keep it in the right "bucket" (that's my OCD acting up).

Joe

[Guest]

On 22 August 2016 at 10:16 PM, joeDowntown said:

In other news, I heard Sunshine Church is selling their entire complex. One mile of East Beltline frontage and 100+ acres of property. Let the speculation begin. 

Wow.  That's a huge chunk of land, how much are they asking?  Kind of ironic that a few miles down the road Calvary is expanding, but maybe this is a move to draw more members?  The US is following trends in Europe where people are attending church less and finding alternatives to organized religion.  Just look at how many churches are being repurposed or redeveloped here in our little bible belt.  Can't say I've heard of any new churches being built.

[joeDowntown]

3 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Wow.  That's a huge chunk of land, how much are they asking?  Kind of ironic that a few miles down the road Calvary is expanding, but maybe this is a move to draw more members?  The US is following trends in Europe where people are attending church less and finding alternatives to organized religion.  Just look at how many churches are being repurposed or redeveloped here in our little bible belt.  Can't say I've heard of any new churches being built.

The person I talked to (who didn't know I'm a total hound for development info) acted like it had already sold. I couldn't press him on it too much, though I did confirm with a 2nd opera on that they are indeed vacating. 

I'll try to dig for information if I get the chance.

joe

3 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Just look at how many churches are being repurposed or redeveloped here in our little bible belt.  Can't say I've heard of any new churches being built.

Ada Bible is growing like crazy. I heard they bought East Hills (on East Paris) and it will be their 4th campus. 

[getemngo]

3 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Wow.  That's a huge chunk of land, how much are they asking?  Kind of ironic that a few miles down the road Calvary is expanding, but maybe this is a move to draw more members?  The US is following trends in Europe where people are attending church less and finding alternatives to organized religion.  Just look at how many churches are being repurposed or redeveloped here in our little bible belt.  Can't say I've heard of any new churches being built.

While the overall number of churches and attendance is stagnant, the vast majority of megachurches (which Sunshine was when its facility was built) are thriving - though I think Mars Hill has lost some membership too? Sunshine's decline came from a large number of schisms over the years, starting when its lead pastor resigned in the early 90s and started New Community Church on Dean Lake. Losing 70% of your members over 25 years is hardly typical.

[Sparty97]

Yes Ada Bible is huge.  3 full time campuses and the 4th campus is already meeting at Calvin until they build on East Paris.  I don't know the exact attendence numbers but both the Knapp Street and Kentwood campuses can seat 1000 to 1200 people and have 3 services.  The Cascade Road campus is probably closer to 3000 people x 3 services.  I would not be shocked to hear that 10,000+ people attend services every weekend. 

They are really aggressive about their debt.  They normally raise a big chunk of money before breaking ground and then pay off the debt within 2-3 years.

[x99]

13 hours ago, getemngo said:

While the overall number of churches and attendance is stagnant, the vast majority of megachurches (which Sunshine was when its facility was built) are thriving - though I think Mars Hill has lost some membership too? Sunshine's decline came from a large number of schisms over the years, starting when its lead pastor resigned in the early 90s and started New Community Church on Dean Lake. Losing 70% of your members over 25 years is hardly typical.

That's sort of what I recall too... It was basically a cult of personality built around one very charismatic pastor who they were never able to replace successfully.  People used to drive from miles and miles around just to attend Sunshine.  Can't say I've heard much about it in decades. 

[x99]

On 8/23/2016 at 9:18 AM, thebeerqueer said:

You're right. At the time of construction, one of components of concrete wasn't available but construction moved on with a less durable component, knowing full well that the lifespan of the concrete would be diminished. As someone who negotiates, reviews and approves contracts for a job, this is fairly appalling. Either the contractor is laughing all the way to the bank or the state was too focused on getting that stretch of M6 completed. Either way its a terrible situation. 

This is very unlikely.  Concrete is quite simple:  Cement powder, some fly ash, sand, stone, and water, with additives for special situations.  The only major variable is the gradation of the sand, it is tested regularly on state jobs.  If there was a change in the materials, it was approved.  State road jobs have guys on site who test the concrete on a regular basis to ensure it is meeting the hardness spec.  About the only thing that could have changed was more fly ash due to a powder shortage.  Even then, I seem to recall that fly ash content has increased over the years since it has been found to increase strength.  

Why some of the old roads seem to last forever is a good question.  Larger aggregate?  Higher powder content?  Hand finishing?  Slower curing process?  Poured thicker?  Could be a variety of reasons.  

[thebeerqueer]

26 minutes ago, x99 said:

This is very unlikely.  Concrete is quite simple:  Cement powder, some fly ash, sand, stone, and water, with additives for special situations.  The only major variable is the gradation of the sand, it is tested regularly on state jobs.  If there was a change in the materials, it was approved.  State road jobs have guys on site who test the concrete on a regular basis to ensure it is meeting the hardness spec.  About the only thing that could have changed was more fly ash due to a powder shortage.  Even then, I seem to recall that fly ash content has increased over the years since it has been found to increase strength.  

Why some of the old roads seem to last forever is a good question.  Larger aggregate?  Higher powder content?  Hand finishing?  Slower curing process?  Poured thicker?  Could be a variety of reasons.  

Here's the back-up for my statement:

" State transportation officials blamed the failure on a key ingredient in concrete. When it was built, there was a shortage in the natural resin used in highway concrete, the stuff that adds bubbles and helps it withstand big swings in temperatures, Richard said. That’s because more of it was being sold to the cosmetic industry, he said. He said that forced the industry to use synthetic resin, which hadn’t been perfected. "

 

From http://woodtv.com/2016/04/26/m-6-crumbling-years-ahead-of-schedule/

 

This would be part of the " additives for special situations" you mention. Seems to be a key ingredient in cold weather states to accommodate the freeze-thaw cycle. 

 

Honestly, this is the last post about road/highway construction in the wrong thread.

Edited August 25, 2016 by thebeerqueer

[x99]

3 hours ago, thebeerqueer said:

Honestly, this is the last post about road/highway construction in the wrong thread.

Bah.  They have concrete failing on the Beltline, too...    Thanks for the link, though. It explains what happened.  They substituted a synthetic air entrainment admixture for Vinsol (the "cosmetic" component in question), probably without changing the mix design, without understanding the effect that would have.  There are standard ASTM tests for this, so it's surprising it wasn't caught on a project of this size.  And I have a really hard time believing MDOT didn't spec out the mix design.  They are typically very, very detailed.  Big oops.  And it's rather questionable that there was a "shortage".  It just cost more and MDOT didn't want to pay the extra buck or two a yard.  If someone swapped it out contrary to spec, MDOT would be screaming lawsuit, warranty period or no.

So, uh, yeah, let's just hope the concrete on the Beltline stays real nice.  Particularly in front of Sunshine CRC.  Which I hear is being sold, and all.   And rather oddly, I can't seem to find a word about this supposed sale of 100 acres of Beltline property posted anywhere yet.  Nice scoop.  

Edited August 25, 2016 by x99

[joeDowntown]

45 minutes ago, x99 said:

Bah.  They have concrete failing on the Beltline, too...    Thanks for the link, though. It explains what happened.  They substituted a synthetic air entrainment admixture for Vinsol (the "cosmetic" component in question), probably without changing the mix design, without understanding the effect that would have.  There are standard ASTM tests for this, so it's surprising it wasn't caught on a project of this size.  And I have a really hard time believing MDOT didn't spec out the mix design.  They are typically very, very detailed.  Big oops.  And it's rather questionable that there was a "shortage".  It just cost more and MDOT didn't want to pay the extra buck or two a yard.  If someone swapped it out contrary to spec, MDOT would be screaming lawsuit, warranty period or no.

So, uh, yeah, let's just hope the concrete on the Beltline stays real nice.  Particularly in front of Sunshine CRC.  Which I hear is being sold, and all.   And rather oddly, I can't seem to find a word about this supposed sale of 100 acres of Beltline property posted anywhere yet.  Nice scoop.  

I'm sure you will, now that the cat is out of the bag. I was not able to glean any information about what they might do with the property. I would expect office or retail. Bad location for residential (unless they build more apartments). Another mega church? Possibly (I'd have thought maybe Ada Bible snatched it up, but they like big wearhouse-y type buildings and have a Knapp Street location (plus the East Hills property). Maybe they'll plop a big Walmart on the property (I sure hope they don't). 

Joe

[EastownLeo]

24 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

I'm sure you will, now that the cat is out of the bag. I was not able to glean any information about what they might do with the property. I would expect office or retail. Bad location for residential (unless they build more apartments). Another mega church? Possibly (I'd have thought maybe Ada Bible snatched it up, but they like big wearhouse-y type buildings and have a Knapp Street location (plus the East Hills property). Maybe they'll plop a big Walmart on the property (I sure hope they don't). 

Joe

Costco would see a good deal of business in that location but it may be too close to the 28th st.

[getemngo]

Costco tends not to build very many stores - it's almost unheard of for them to have more locations in a metro than Sam's Club, and they're sitting at two each in Grand Rapids right now. But they are expanding within Michigan right now, eyeing new stores in both Lansing and Traverse City. Time will tell.

I'm thinking about how Von Maur was looking at anchoring an outdoor mall at the SE corner of East Beltline and 3 Mile a few years back, and we still don't have any department stores "fancier" than Macy's. No Lord & Taylor or a "real" Nordstrom or anything like that. But I couldn't see any of them coming here without anchoring a huge retail project, and I don't see any huge retail projects in that area with all the luck Knapp's Crossing has had.

[Guest]

Heard today that Sunshine is being bought by...... another church.  I don't recall the name, something out of Rockford/Belding.

[IMKY50]

Res Life bought Sunshine property I believe.

Edited August 26, 2016 by IMKY50

[ctpgr34]

13 hours ago, IMKY50 said:

Res Life bought Sunshine property I believe.

Here you go- http://www.grbj.com/articles/86015-church-sells-77-acre-site

[GRDadof3]

19 hours ago, ctpgr34 said:

Here you go- http://www.grbj.com/articles/86015-church-sells-77-acre-site

I hope "Res Life" maintains relationships with the soccer programs who use those fields on the corner. There's already a shortage of soccer fields in West Michigan. 

I'm with Joe, so glad it's not a Walmart (which was courting Robinettes to sell 5 or 6 years ago I heard). 

[ctpgr34]

Former Fajita Republic will be a Chick-fil-A

[Sparty97]

2 hours ago, ctpgr34 said:

Former Fajita Republic will be a Chick-fil-A

That is not going to be helpful in dropping some weight.  I love Chick-Fil-A.

[GRDadof3]

6 hours ago, ctpgr34 said:

Former Fajita Republic will be a Chick-fil-A

Hooray! Said the Big and Tall Men's Shop. 

[joeDowntown]

23 hours ago, ctpgr34 said:

Former Fajita Republic will be a Chick-fil-A

Wonder if they'll knock down the current building. Seems like an odd configuration for a fast food restaurant.

Joe

[ctpgr34]

8 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

Wonder if they'll knock down the current building. Seems like an odd configuration for a fast food restaurant.

Joe

Sounded like it will be knocked down