East Beltline Developments

[JAS]

So what's the latest with Orchard Hills? It's been pretty quiet thus far...

on hold, at least for now. They are trying to sell off some land to create some cash flow. It will never be the 400,000 sqft it was first going to be maybe 200,000 sqft if it ever gets off the ground.

[GR_Urbanist]

We can always use some productive farmland.

I can guarantee whatever they sell off will just turn into cinder block strip malls.

[blueradon]

I guess bad timing for them then eh?

It's too bad they can't lure Whole Foods there - although I'm sure that's not a particular location WF wants to be in anyway.

[GRDadof3]

I guess bad timing for them then eh?

It's too bad they can't lure Whole Foods there - although I'm sure that's not a particular location WF wants to be in anyway.

Sure it is. The demographics are almost perfect: high incomes, % college educated, median home values, etc. I see Whole Foods more and more in suburban areas.

[suydam]

Sure it is. The demographics are almost perfect: high incomes, % college educated, median home values, etc. I see Whole Foods more and more in suburban areas.

Agree... one of the most prominent Whole Foods in metro-Detroit is the one at Orchard Lake Rd. and 14 Mile Rd. in West Bloomfield Township. Suburban shoppers rule the day for a chain like that.

[GRDadof3]

The D&W is really flying now:

[Veloise]

The adventure continues.

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2009/12/village_at_knapp_corners_is_in.html

[Raildudes dad]

The adventure continues.

Every day is an adventure with Mr Benner, and it will go on and on and on..........

[joeDowntown]

Agreed. One temper tantrum after another. It's ridiculous. I like that they are sticking to their guns. I'm sure Walgreens has flourished in other lifestyle centers...

Joe

Every day is an adventure with Mr Benner, and it will go on and on and on..........

[andrew.w]

Benner said Walgreen's customers wanted the in and out convenience of the entrance. Forcing them to use other entrances would endanger pedestrians in the development, he said.

This seems like very much of a non-argument to me. Everyone driving to anywhere else on the site will also have to drive this way and be conscious of pedestrians. Same that pedestrians will need to be aware that - unlike in a mall - they are walking along a motorway and therefore can't cross over wherever they want.

Of course, unless his argument is that pharmacy customers are a breed of shopper who will be in such a hurry to get in a get out that they won't be bothered with paying attention to anything else (i.e. shoppers on foot). I do see some truth in this, in the same way that every store parking lot this time of year is pretty dangerous to walk in as well, but this is more the fault of the people behind the wheel than anything else.

Then again Mr. Benner's entire argument is pretty out of whack. I especially fail to see the connection between Walgreen's and securing P.F. Chang's.

[RegalTDP]

That struck me as weird too - I've never passed on a Walgreen's because I didn't like where the driveway was. What about those weird remote driveways on the Walgreen's at 28th and Kalamazoo? I'm willing to bet the city forced them to place the driveways far away from the intersection, but that obviously didn't halt the development. They are clearly safer there, too.

Veloise, were you at the BZA meeting? Do you have a sense Benner will try to use this to back out of the development?

[GRDadof3]

This seems like very much of a non-argument to me. Everyone driving to anywhere else on the site will also have to drive this way and be conscious of pedestrians. Same that pedestrians will need to be aware that - unlike in a mall - they are walking along a motorway and therefore can't cross over wherever they want.

Of course, unless his argument is that pharmacy customers are a breed of shopper who will be in such a hurry to get in a get out that they won't be bothered with paying attention to anything else (i.e. shoppers on foot). I do see some truth in this, in the same way that every store parking lot this time of year is pretty dangerous to walk in as well, but this is more the fault of the people behind the wheel than anything else.

Then again Mr. Benner's entire argument is pretty out of whack. I especially fail to see the connection between Walgreen's and securing P.F. Chang's.

It's purely a negotiating tactic. He's just building his case for potential failure down the road. He knows the city wants (and is requiring) the project to be finished in a timely manner. When it doesn't get finished in a timely manner, he can point to his driveway denial as evidence that the city was to blame for it.

I'd like to call PFChang's and see how much of their business relies on Walgreen's spinoff traffic. (I can hear the guffaws now).

[Veloise]

That struck me as weird too - I've never passed on a Walgreen's because I didn't like where the driveway was. What about those weird remote driveways on the Walgreen's at 28th and Kalamazoo? I'm willing to bet the city forced them to place the driveways far away from the intersection, but that obviously didn't halt the development. They are clearly safer there, too.

Veloise, were you at the BZA meeting? Do you have a sense Benner will try to use this to back out of the development?

I was present.

Watch for the meeting minutes (give the planning department a couple of weeks, with the holidays). They'll be a verbatim transcript.

[JAS]

It's purely a negotiating tactic. He's just building his case for potential failure down the road. He knows the city wants (and is requiring) the project to be finished in a timely manner. When it doesn't get finished in a timely manner, he can point to his driveway denial as evidence that the city was to blame for it.

I'd like to call PFChang's and see how much of their business relies on Walgreen's spinoff traffic. (I can hear the guffaws now).

Benner is going to run into more trouble with the PF Chang's site. Their site plan shows the building facing the Beltline. and not in towards the village. He has sold this thing as a lifestyle center but now as he moves forward he is going to develop this like all his other properties on Alpine: a strip mall. The city has already voiced their displeasure about this to benner, but i think he is going to bring the plan forward to the commission anyways.

[GRDadof3]

Benner is going to run into more trouble with the PF Chang's site. Their site plan shows the building facing the Beltline. and not in towards the village. He has sold this thing as a lifestyle center but now as he moves forward he is going to develop this like all his other properties on Alpine: a strip mall. The city has already voiced their displeasure about this to benner, but i think he is going to bring the plan forward to the commission anyways.

This is what happens when you develop a "lifestyle center" in chunks. Each little building that needs individual approval will want to face the Beltline.

[suydam]

This is what happens when you develop a "lifestyle center" in chunks. Each little building that needs individual approval will want to face the Beltline.

Nor can we blame them.

If it's 10 years before Benner finishes his "lifestyle center" those that choose to face inward, toward an undeveloped lifestyle center will struggle to survive.

[andrew.w]

Or at the very least, develop the buildings at the back of the center first, that way they CAN face the main road. Then as those fill up, begin adding building facing inward in front of the first phase. In a way that is sort of what happened across at the Celebration Cinemas complex (if it has a name I can't remember it). First the buildings were built in a long strip, then another retail block was constructed in front. Even some of the stand-alone restaurants face inward rather than towards the Beltline. It's not really a Lifestyle center, but that's the same general concept.

Other than obvious aesthetic and planning differences, I'm still not sure that there is really that much difference between a Lifestyle Center and a Strip Mall. If it is not developed with a significant amount of residential and office to be more of a village concept, it's really just a shopping mall without a roof (which was done in Michigan back in the 1960s). So is this really an improvement to suburban planning (again I am stressing planning here - I can see how these developments would be much more pleasant for store to store shopping).

[joeDowntown]

With all of the changes, temper tantrums, demands, etc. I am almost rooting for this to fail before liftoff. If this project does move forward, I wonder if we'll all be shaking our heads in 10 years wondering why 'we' let it happen.

And for PF Chang fans (me included), if PF Chang's wants to be in GR, which it seems they do, they will find a location. It seems like one of the outlots of Celebration Cinema on Knapp would be a great location.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

Or at the very least, develop the buildings at the back of the center first, that way they CAN face the main road. Then as those fill up, begin adding building facing inward in front of the first phase. In a way that is sort of what happened across at the Celebration Cinemas complex (if it has a name I can't remember it). First the buildings were built in a long strip, then another retail block was constructed in front. Even some of the stand-alone restaurants face inward rather than towards the Beltline. It's not really a Lifestyle center, but that's the same general concept.

Other than obvious aesthetic and planning differences, I'm still not sure that there is really that much difference between a Lifestyle Center and a Strip Mall. If it is not developed with a significant amount of residential and office to be more of a village concept, it's really just a shopping mall without a roof (which was done in Michigan back in the 1960s). So is this really an improvement to suburban planning (again I am stressing planning here - I can see how these developments would be much more pleasant for store to store shopping).

The large successfully executed lifestyle centers I've seen are basically a mall with the main corridor widened (for a street and cars) and the roof taken off, all built at once like a mall. That way, each individual retailer doesn't have to take the risk of facing away from the main traffic artery; all the energy is focused toward the "main street."

I really hope the city realizes they are being set up for a failed lifestyle center. It will just be a big strip mall with a bunch of junk outlot restaurants and banks, mark my word.

[wingbert]

The large successfully executed lifestyle centers I've seen are basically a mall with the main corridor widened (for a street and cars) and the roof taken off, all built at once like a mall. That way, each individual retailer doesn't have to take the risk of facing away from the main traffic artery; all the energy is focused toward the "main street."

I really hope the city realizes they are being set up for a failed lifestyle center. It will just be a big strip mall with a bunch of junk outlot restaurants and banks, mark my word.

I find myself getting angrier about this the more I read. There are certainly going to be a lot of "I told you so's" regarding this guy and his experience/reputation. It's unfortunate that it appears the doubters are turning out right. Also unfortunate that that big chunk of real estate has been clear cut and bulldozed.

At this point, one of the few positives I can see in all this is that Benner will have solidified his reputation and won't be able to pull these kind of hijinks in the area again.

[RegalTDP]

To me, lifestyle centers are just glorified strip malls anyway, created for people/city boards who don't like strip malls. Piggybacking off Joe, if it weren't for PF Chang's, I honestly wouldn't care about this. As for the D&W, I'd rather Spartan concentrate its efforts on Michigan & Fuller than here.

Just to be clear, Village of Orchard Hills is a different group of people, right? Not that there's been a lot of progress there, but just wondering what to expect from the developers, should they proceed.

[joeDowntown]

The Village of Orchard Hills developers are different, and built a pretty nice lifestyle center in the suburbs of Detroit. Last I heard though, they were selling off some of the property. Anybody know anything about this project? They used to keep their website, http://www.thevooh.com/ updated frequently but there hasn't been an update in over a year.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

The Village of Orchard Hills developers are different, and built a pretty nice lifestyle center in the suburbs of Detroit. Last I heard though, they were selling off some of the property. Anybody know anything about this project? They used to keep their website, http://www.thevooh.com/ updated frequently but there hasn't been an update in over a year.

Joe

Seems like I heard that it had been drastically downsized. I wouldn't be surprised if it just stays vacant land for a while with a totally new office park/residential project or something entirely different down the road.

[JAS]

The Village of Orchard Hills developers are different, and built a pretty nice lifestyle center in the suburbs of Detroit. Last I heard though, they were selling off some of the property. Anybody know anything about this project? They used to keep their website, http://www.thevooh.com/ updated frequently but there hasn't been an update in over a year.

Joe

Right now Village of Orchard hills is a "dead project" Infeld (BDR) is trying to sell off some property. If the project does happen (3-5yrs from now) it will be about 200,000 sqft instead of the 400,000+ sqft they where planning on.

[joeDowntown]

Update on Walgreens: Benner still saying Walgreen's won't build without the curb cut:

http://bit.ly/70ChjX

Joe