East Beltline Developments

[GRDadof3]

Good find.  From that video a new site plan;

 

 

Ah, that's right. Rusty Bucket and Bravo Italian restaurant (even though Carino's across the street went under and that Chili's never has any customers there.)

 

I mean, look at this website for Rusty Bucket. I've never seen anything so spectacular:

 

http://www.myrustybucket.com/

 

Boyne Sports would be cool I guess.

[john_denver]

Grand Rapids...King of Chains.  I know it's vital to have some restaurant chain presence but the food is all the same once you get past all the marketing/branding.  Borrrrrrring!

 

Ideally it would be nice if the Grand Rapids area had some kind of restaruant business incubator that focuses on unique menu items, unique sourcing of food supplies, great ethnic options.  Promote restaurant & culinary evolution, not bringing in the next cool chain.

 

I know there are a few places in Grand Rapids that are blazing this trail, so kudos to them.

 

It's just boring that all of these "villiages/strip malls" all have the same types of food.

[wingbert]

I guess it was too much to hope that we might end up with someplace like Birkdale Village in North Carolina, but that sure would've been cool for this type of thing.  Do a google street view and imagine the possibilities [16805 Birkdale Commons Parkway, Huntersville, NC 28078].

 

[GRDadof3]

I guess it was too much to hope that we might end up with someplace like Birkdale Village in North Carolina, but that sure would've been cool for this type of thing.  Do a google street view and imagine the possibilities [16805 Birkdale Commons Parkway, Huntersville, NC 28078].

 

 

It may not be too late. If he doesn't get his refinancing, might it not turn over to the bank? And then possibly get snatched up by some national REIT?

[joeDowntown]

I know they had to do all kinds of creative financing (Spartan paying for its own site improvements, splitting properties w/ multiple lenders involved, etc). It will be interesting to see what happens. In the video, they kept mentioning June 2013 as some sort of magic date to get started. Now that June has come and gone, I wonder if it is time to pay up?

 

Joe

[egrguy]

Those restaurants... Boring. Seems like an ideal location for Five Guys, potbelly, BJ's Brewhouse, Einstein bagels, and many others.

I don't see that area as a hub for unique/local restauants anyway so flood it with chains. I'm happy A place like Harmony Brewing is walking distance (a place that'd not ever be out that far from a walkable neighborhood).

With H&M, Antrhopologie, etc moving to the market seems like a good spot for an REI.

[mpchicago]

This is one of the hottest corners on the entire Grand Rapids area.  I'm suprised that it's taking so long to develop, even with Evergreen as the developer.  It would seem that every national and local retailer would be dying to get a spot here.  I agree with Joe, as it seems like a national developer with some experience should take over this project.  Is Target done adding stores in Grand Rapids?  

[Jippy]

Sad that I remember when this intersection was all farm fields and apple orchards...I'm getting old. 

[mpchicago]

Sad that I remember when this intersection was all farm fields and apple orchards...I'm getting old. 

 

Yes.  The Beltline was a two lane road from the malls to Plainfield, and in spots trees nearly canopied over the road.  Now I feel that traffic is so bad sometimes that they need three lanes in each direction!

Edited August 1, 2013 by mpchicago

[GRDadof3]

This is one of the hottest corners on the entire Grand Rapids area.  I'm suprised that it's taking so long to develop, even with Evergreen as the developer.  It would seem that every national and local retailer would be dying to get a spot here.  I agree with Joe, as it seems like a national developer with some experience should take over this project.  Is Target done adding stores in Grand Rapids?  

 

Oh god, not a Target there. In fact, I don't think it's approved for a store that big. Maybe 40,000 square feet.

 

My guess is that a lot of national retailers have looked at it, but are skittish with the development's ordeals. It has been one cluster f**k after another.

 

I don't think there's a need for any more "service" retailers like sandwich shops and hair salons in that area. There's probably only a couple thousand households within 2 - 3 miles. Based on the amount of traffic from I-96 to Knapp, people are traveling quite a few miles to go to Meijer and the movie theater.

 

Some national retailers, much like the shopping center on 23 between Brighton and Ann Arbor would probably do well. And yes, Beltline will probably need to go to 6 lanes soon. It's stop and go for much of the day now (add in the people going to Rockford, Plainfield, Cannon Twp).

[GRDadof3]

Those restaurants... Boring. Seems like an ideal location for Five Guys, potbelly, BJ's Brewhouse, Einstein bagels, and many others.

I don't see that area as a hub for unique/local restauants anyway so flood it with chains. I'm happy A place like Harmony Brewing is walking distance (a place that'd not ever be out that far from a walkable neighborhood).

With H&M, Antrhopologie, etc moving to the market seems like a good spot for an REI.

 

Licari's does really well in that area. We go there quite a bit and it's always busy.

 

What's really interesting is seeing the Spectrum Medical Group building going up at 3 Mile and E Beltline where the competing development was going to go. Sad to see every last tree scraped off that massive site.

[Allison Slater]

If they go to 6 lanes they better install proper sidewalks.  It is not a fun road to commute down on bike, that's for sure.

[jthrasher]

while I haven't actually done the research I find it very hard to believe that the Michigan lefts turn arounds help the traffic situation.  There are busier roads in this city and none of them get backed up as much as the Beltline. 

[GRDadof3]

while I haven't actually done the research I find it very hard to believe that the Michigan lefts turn arounds help the traffic situation.  There are busier roads in this city and none of them get backed up as much as the Beltline. 

 

While I agree that everyone wanting to go left at Meijer and Celebration Village does cause a lot of slow driving in the left lane, that section of the Beltline also sees 50,000 cars a day, which is way more than most of 28th Street or Alpine sees. Would switching to a traditional left turn lane at either of those spots change things? I doubt it. I still watch people every day get over in the left lane as soon as they get North of I-96, getting ready to turn left at Meijer or the theater. And they seem to be lost. like they can't remember how far North it is.

 

http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9622_11033_11149---,00.html

[fotoman311]

Oh god, not a Target there. In fact, I don't think it's approved for a store that big. Maybe 40,000 square feet.

 

My guess is that a lot of national retailers have looked at it, but are skittish with the development's ordeals. It has been one cluster f**k after another.

 

I don't think there's a need for any more "service" retailers like sandwich shops and hair salons in that area. There's probably only a couple thousand households within 2 - 3 miles. Based on the amount of traffic from I-96 to Knapp, people are traveling quite a few miles to go to Meijer and the movie theater.

 

Some national retailers, much like the shopping center on 23 between Brighton and Ann Arbor would probably do well. And yes, Beltline will probably need to go to 6 lanes soon. It's stop and go for much of the day now (add in the people going to Rockford, Plainfield, Cannon Twp).

 

Last I checked, the only proven way to reduce congestion was to have less cars.  I know, it's complicated.

 

Adding lanes sounds mighty expensive.  How many strip malls, medical centers surrounded by seas of parking, and $hitty "town centers" need to be built to generate the tax revenue to even begin to make that a worthy investment?  Do we have enough orchards to remove to build them all?  

 

Sorry if I'm being a little overly sarcastic, but the mentality that we can simply widen roads to reduce congestion is a proven failure.

Edited August 1, 2013 by fotoman311

[Jippy]

Triple Convergence (Anthony Downs, Still Stuck In Traffic)

"Now suppose that the limited-access route undergoes a vast improvement—for example, its four lanes are expanded to eight. Once its carrying capacity is thus increased, the drivers using it move much faster than those using alternative routes. 

 

In response, three types of convergence occur on the improved expressway: many drivers who formerly used alternative routes during peak hours switch to the improved expressway (spatial convergence); many drivers who formerly traveled just before or after the peak hours start traveling during those hours (time convergence); and some commuters who used to take public transportation during peak hours now switch to driving, since it has become faster (modal convergence).

 

This triple convergence causes more and more drivers to use the improved expressway during peak hours. Therefore its traffic volumes keep rising until vehicles are once again moving at a crawl during the peak period. This outcome is almost inescapable if peak-hour traffic was already slow before the highway was improved. If traffic is going faster than a crawl on this direct route at the peak hours, its users will still get to their destinations faster than users of city streets, which are less direct and more encumbered by signals and cross streets. Total travel times on these two types of paths will only become equalized if the limited-access roads are so overloaded that vehicles on them are moving at slower speeds than those on normal streets. Triple convergence creates just such an effect during peak hours."

 

http://davidpritchard.org/sustrans/Dow92/

 

Jippy: There is a fourth element of convergence, by momentarily allowing for greater speeds, land use patterns also change, thereby allowing more people to live further out and thus generating even greater numbers of trips and congestion than if the improvement was never performed. Thus we get a whole lot of shuffling around of land use patterns, millions spent on roadways, and very little to show for it.  

[Allison Slater]

The shoulders on the beltline are already wide enough to support a whole lane.  Although I think I'd rather see any additional lane be a carpool lane and mass transit added.  (A bus running up Plainfield, down the Beltline, and back would be nice.)

[GRDadof3]

Last I checked, the only proven way to reduce congestion was to have less cars.  I know, it's complicated.

 

Adding lanes sounds mighty expensive.  How many strip malls, medical centers surrounded by seas of parking, and $hitty "town centers" need to be built to generate the tax revenue to even begin to make that a worthy investment?  Do we have enough orchards to remove to build them all?  

 

Sorry if I'm being a little overly sarcastic, but the mentality that we can simply widen roads to reduce congestion is a proven failure.

 

 

I'm not looking to reduce congestion. I'm looking to get those friggin hordes of slow drivers out of the left lane. Or at least have a way to get around them.

 

Create a good municipal and educational system that doesn't "force" people to live out there and then we'll talk about reducing the cars out there.

[GR8scott]

I'm not looking to reduce congestion. I'm looking to get those friggin hordes of slow drivers out of the left lane. Or at least have a way to get around them.

 

Create a good municipal and educational system that doesn't "force" people to live out there and then we'll talk about reducing the cars out there.

 

LOL MI is not as bad as many other areas of the country when it comes to left lane campers but a 3rd lane makes a lot of sense from about 29th street to past the beltline in fact there are 3 lanes in both directions further south around the m6 interchange when MDOT was planning ahead there so why not expand further north in the higher traffic areas. 3 lanes in both directions make even more sense on a road with michigan uy's because there are so many slow drivers in the left lane waiting to turn as well as the right so there is really no "through lane". The GR area does not have wide roads like metro Detroit or out west, heck even in the Dakotas there are many roads with 3 lanes in each direction. 

 

But yes I agree there should be a LOT more stressing of road courtesy and awareness of other driver in the education courses 

[jas49503]

I'm not looking to reduce congestion. I'm looking to get those friggin hordes of slow drivers out of the left lane. Or at least have a way to get around them.

 

Create a good municipal and educational system that doesn't "force" people to live out there and then we'll talk about reducing the cars out there.

how about creating a population that pays attention and realizes that the city functions well with regards to resident services and that there are plenty of good educational services in the city.  fear driven decision making and the desire for an excessively large yard is why people feel the need to experience a painful commute.

[GRDadof3]

The city can't afford to keep its parks open, can't afford to maintain roads, and has millions in legacy costs/pensions that it will struggle to pay on the coming years.

What "educational services" are available in the city?

Who's not paying attention?

Plus, it's not fear, it's facts. And the commute isn't that painful. You can get pretty much anywhere in the area in about 15 minutes, despite the left lane hogs.

[Veloise]

The city can't afford to keep its parks open, can't afford to maintain roads, and has millions in legacy costs/pensions that it will struggle to pay on the coming years.

What "educational services" are available in the city?

Who's not paying attention?

Plus, it's not fear, it's facts. And the commute isn't that painful. You can get pretty much anywhere in the area in about 15 minutes, despite the left lane hogs.

Cue up the "let's move ArtPrize to Grandville for free parking" comments. (Yeah, another A/P reference. It starts next month, deal with it.)

 

Educational services in the city include:

GVSU (including their radio station...seems like someone on here was a guest on The Morning Show just last week?)

GRCC

Aquinas

Calvin

Davenport ("that Beltline hinterland campus doesn't attract the attention we need...oh and we need a signage variance because we can't plan ahead")

WMU

Kendall

FSU

WMCAT

MSU - College of Human Medicine

Cooley

Northwood (management grad school)

Montessori

Catholic Central

 

HTH

[Allison Slater]

Most of those don't really require living in the city proper.

[Jippy]

Most of those don't really require living in the city proper.

 

But it does fly in the face of lacking proper educational opportunities in the city. Beyond pejorative comments concerning education inside the City, the developmental creep towards this area is reflective of broader national demographic trends towards suburbanization. Those trends are beginning to slow all across the county, and are reversing in some areas. As a third tier market, it will take longer for those trends to take root here, but I don't see anything strikingly peculiar that this region would buck those trends. Chain stores are not stupid. There is a reason that this project is not developing with places like Antropology and H & M -- they see the writing on the wall...there is greater purchasing power growth in infill destinations. 

 

Downtown Grand Rapids and inner-ring neighborhoods will continue to strengthen, and at some point they will become more desirable (in terms of real estate values) than their exurban comp. This is not some magical wishing, it is simply a result of what is happening all across the United States. It doesn't mean all suburban development will cease, it simply means cultural values, as reflected in property market value, are shifting. 

[GRDadof3]

But it does fly in the face of lacking proper educational opportunities in the city. Beyond pejorative comments concerning education inside the City, the developmental creep towards this area is reflective of broader national demographic trends towards suburbanization. Those trends are beginning to slow all across the county, and are reversing in some areas. As a third tier market, it will take longer for those trends to take root here, but I don't see anything strikingly peculiar that this region would buck those trends. Chain stores are not stupid. There is a reason that this project is not developing with places like Antropology and H & M -- they see the writing on the wall...there is greater purchasing power growth in infill destinations. 

 

Downtown Grand Rapids and inner-ring neighborhoods will continue to strengthen, and at some point they will become more desirable (in terms of real estate values) than their exurban comp. This is not some magical wishing, it is simply a result of what is happening all across the United States. It doesn't mean all suburban development will cease, it simply means cultural values, as reflected in property market value, are shifting. 

 

 

Ah, FYI, that slow down in suburban development only occurred because of the overall national recession. There is not some massive movement toward urban areas like the policy wonks would have you believe. Just look at national building trends in the last 12 months. Residential building permits have shot up dramatically, and guess where that is occurring?

 

H&M located in Woodland Mall, in case you didn't hear.

 

In the meantime, GRPS keeps bleeding about 900 kids every year to the suburbs, charter schools and school of choice; down nearly 8000 students in 10 years. It's now smaller than Forest Hills PS. Another round of 200 layoffs was just announced.

 

This year, Chicago Public Schools announced the closure of over 200 schools.

 

Cleveland Public Schools graduates only 38% of its students and is looking at massive cuts in schools.

 

Even Portland, everyone's hallmark urbanist town, is looking at closing down schools due to declining enrollment, even though the number of school aged children in the Portland metro area is exploding.

 

Some neighborhoods in GR are definitely becoming more desirable, for some. They're certainly not desirable for working class families. Keep in mind, there are about 120,000 children aged 5 - 18 in Kent County. Only about 15,000 of them now go to GRPS.

 

Your turn.

Cue up the "let's move ArtPrize to Grandville for free parking" comments. (Yeah, another A/P reference. It starts next month, deal with it.)

 

Educational services in the city include:

GVSU (including their radio station...seems like someone on here was a guest on The Morning Show just last week?)

GRCC

Aquinas

Calvin

Davenport ("that Beltline hinterland campus doesn't attract the attention we need...oh and we need a signage variance because we can't plan ahead")

WMU

Kendall

FSU

WMCAT

MSU - College of Human Medicine

Cooley

Northwood (management grad school)

Montessori

Catholic Central

 

HTH

 

K-12. The only two you mention are Montessori (which isn't for most kids) and Catholic Central (really, really expensive). Most Christian schools in the city are around $600/month/student. x3 kids you're looking at $1800/month. That's 80% more than my mortgage. (not to mention I wouldn't dream of sending my kid to a parochial school)

 

 

Point being, the city needs to realize that it's really at a pivotal moment where it could become like Flint (I'm not talking downtown, I'm talking about the neighborhoods). Is anything being done to bring families back?