East Beltline Developments

[RegalTDP]

So they're proposing the corner that's still GR city limits?  Is the city OK with drive-throughs at that spot?

[ctpgr34]

Well, well, well- http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/01/chick-fil-a_brings_back_propos.html#incart_river_home

[GRDadof3]

On 1/12/2017 at 9:58 AM, ctpgr34 said:

Well, well, well- http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/01/chick-fil-a_brings_back_propos.html#incart_river_home

Denied, again.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/01/chick-fil-as_second_attempt_at.html

After seeing those aerial shots of the cars lined up at the Gaines Twp location, I can't see how Celebration Village can handle that kind of mess. Or the East Beltline. It's a state trunkline, MDOT would never go for it. And people would have a heck of a time getting to Celebration Cinema. The 28th and Beltline location, the cars can snake all the way over toward Potbelly, etc.. There's no room for that at Celebration Village. 

[GRLaker]

The traffic is bad, but likely wouldn't last. Eventually the novelty of it would wear off.

I wonder if they'll now shoot for Alpine or Plainfield to get the northern GR area crowd. 

[wingbert]

33 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Denied, again.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/01/chick-fil-as_second_attempt_at.html

After seeing those aerial shots of the cars lined up at the Gaines Twp location, I can't see how Celebration Village can handle that kind of mess. Or the East Beltline. It's a state trunkline, MDOT would never go for it. And people would have a heck of a time getting to Celebration Cinema. The 28th and Beltline location, the cars can snake all the way over toward Potbelly, etc.. There's no room for that at Celebration Village. 

Whereas the existing vacant former Fajita Republic building shows the wisdom of a strategy that only approves businesses that draw very little traffic.

[GRDadof3]

3 minutes ago, wingbert said:

Whereas the existing vacant former Fajita Republic building shows the wisdom of a strategy that only approves businesses that draw very little traffic.

So you think that that one example means that the city only approves businesses that draw very little traffic? Happy mediums do actually exist. 

[Sparty97]

It is not very often that you see a business rejected because they are too successful and they would bring too many customers willing to spend money to a retail area.  Generally speaking, if something is VERY popular with the public and there is a huge request for their goods, that is seen as a good thing.  

I would suspect that initially, the traffic would be a mess but I can't imagine it would have that detrimental of an effect in the long term.  I drive through Knapp's corner 3 to 4 times a day and I would welcome another drive through option when driving the kids to/from after school activities.  If that intersection can't handle a fast food joint, then how is it going to handle all the proposed developments within a mile of there?  If I was a developer, this would raise a red flag.  

[GRLaker]

19 minutes ago, Sparty97 said:

It is not very often that you see a business rejected because they are too successful and they would bring too many customers willing to spend money to a retail area.  Generally speaking, if something is VERY popular with the public and there is a huge request for their goods, that is seen as a good thing.  

I would suspect that initially, the traffic would be a mess but I can't imagine it would have that detrimental of an effect in the long term.  I drive through Knapp's corner 3 to 4 times a day and I would welcome another drive through option when driving the kids to/from after school activities.  If that intersection can't handle a fast food joint, then how is it going to handle all the proposed developments within a mile of there?  If I was a developer, this would raise a red flag.  

Not even a mile. We're talking right across the street that the large retail center is supposed to go. Something tells me that if those retail establishments existed today, they would be pressuring the city to allow the building of this. If it draws people to them, it draws people to being within sight of their businesses. As it stands right now, that area is made up almost entirely of the food industry with a theater mixed in. 

[GR8scott]

How about better traffic planning.....like widen the fricking road and an exit at knapp an 96

[arcturus]

1 hour ago, Sparty97 said:

If that intersection can't handle a fast food joint, then how is it going to handle all the proposed developments within a mile of there?  If I was a developer, this would raise a red flag.  

The irony seems to be that once an area gets very busy a developer has a better chance.

[wingbert]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

So you think that that one example means that the city only approves businesses that draw very little traffic? Happy mediums do actually exist. 

Actually, I was kinda sorta being facetious.  I agree that happy mediums can exist.  However, I'm not sure exactly what the city wants in that spot that they think is going to be successful but not too successful.  They've painted themselves into a bit of a corner there.  Perhaps if a developer were to propose a generic brown apartment building with zero onsite parking that was clad head to toe in EIFS for this location they would approve it.

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

It is not very often that you see a business rejected because they are too successful and they would bring too many customers willing to spend money to a retail area.  Generally speaking, if something is VERY popular with the public and there is a huge request for their goods, that is seen as a good thing.  

I would suspect that initially, the traffic would be a mess but I can't imagine it would have that detrimental of an effect in the long term.  I drive through Knapp's corner 3 to 4 times a day and I would welcome another drive through option when driving the kids to/from after school activities.  If that intersection can't handle a fast food joint, then how is it going to handle all the proposed developments within a mile of there?  If I was a developer, this would raise a red flag.  

It's not that the business would be "too busy," it's the stacking of cars in the drive through. You wouldn't approve a manufacturing plant that would send trucks down a very narrow residential street with no place to turn around, correct?  

Why can't Chick-Fil-A go there without a drive through? If they draw such a following, why not make people come in. Panera there doesn't have a drive through and it's packed every lunch hour. 

 

3 hours ago, GRLaker said:

Not even a mile. We're talking right across the street that the large retail center is supposed to go. Something tells me that if those retail establishments existed today, they would be pressuring the city to allow the building of this. If it draws people to them, it draws people to being within sight of their businesses. As it stands right now, that area is made up almost entirely of the food industry with a theater mixed in. 

But then doesn't that beg the question that NO restaurant should be allowed there? 

[GRLaker]

28 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

It's not that the business would be "too busy," it's the stacking of cars in the drive through. You wouldn't approve a manufacturing plant that would send trucks down a very narrow residential street with no place to turn around, correct?  

Why can't Chick-Fil-A go there without a drive through? If they draw such a following, why not make people come in. Panera there doesn't have a drive through and it's packed every lunch hour. 

 

But then doesn't that beg the question that NO restaurant should be allowed there? 

Solid point. If that is the case, then the city should say they would prefer a retail development to be in that space over another restaurant.

[Sparty97]

On 1/27/2017 at 2:06 PM, GRDadof3 said:

Why can't Chick-Fil-A go there without a drive through? If they draw such a following, why not make people come in. Panera there doesn't have a drive through and it's packed every lunch hour. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure this equates to semi traffic down a narrow road with no turnaround.  This is a fast food restaurant on the corner of 2 very busy roads that already has drive-throughs and 38 restaurants or cafe options within a 1/2 mile.  The traffic isn't going to spike even 5%.  It is likely the same people who are going to Subway, Wendy's, Kitchen 67, Firehouse, Qdoba, Pieology or Potbelly right now.

If designed right, the traffic would back up into the Celebration property and not onto the 2 main roads.  I'm sure a design could be made to satisfy specific concerns.  Could you have 2 or even 3 lanes to consolidate the traffic onto the property?  What about something that doubles down on drive through like separate grill and sandwich stations for the drive through?  If the board had come out with some specific numbers on how many chick-fil-a needed to handle in an hour, etc. then I would feel like they really were interested in working with Chick-Fil-A but their reaction didn't seem to be built on actual data.

Drive through accounts for 50-60% of CFA's revenue (for essentially the same footprint).  It is like asking Starbucks to only sell coffee after 10 am.  I'm not saying they wouldn't be successful with that model, and I have no idea if they would consider that option, but the drive through is a big part of their draw.   The fact there is a long line of people who only want to get their food via a drive through says there is a strong demand for this type of service.  

I live out by this intersection and have been frustrated by the lack of developments as promised by developers and now that a great company with products in demand want to invest there, they are shot down.  Something doesn't add up.  

Edited January 30, 2017 by Sparty97

[MJLO]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 2:06 PM, GRDadof3 said:

Why can't Chick-Fil-A go there without a drive through? If they draw such a following, why not make people come in. Panera there doesn't have a drive through and it's packed every lunch hour. 

Panera is fast casual while Chik Fil a is still fast food.  The average fast food restaurant is about 70-75% drive through sales alone.  Sure the inside would get busier but you're talking about a fast food restaurant that is going to do 4-4.5 million in sales with more than half of that coming in the drive through.  It's too much of a risk to the volume they need.   Fast food restaurants without drive-throughs are only in environments that warrant it.  In a suburban environment like that they will be leaving way too much money on the table to justify it.  The only reason Wendy's was allowed was because it was a couple years before GRT got snooty about drive-thru's in their zoning.  It was also in the same parking lot where Meritage was headquartered. 

McDonalds sold the property they had for that area quite a long time ago.

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

 

I live out by this intersection and have been frustrated by the lack of developments as promised by developers and now that a great company with products in demand want to invest there, they are shot down.  Something doesn't add up.  

I don't even understand what that means. Pick up a friggin shovel, man.

I don't think anyone in the world would say that the corner of Knapp and the Beltline lacks development. 

As far as all of the restaurants you mentioned, only Wendy's and Potbelly have drive throughs. The East Beltline Overlay District, which was agreed upon by the multiple municipalities that border each other in that area, highly discourages drive throughs. I think that's the crux of the matter.

[Sparty97]

18 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

I don't even understand what that means. Pick up a friggin shovel, man.

 

 

Fair enough.    :-)  

I guess I was revealing the fact I've looked at the Lormax Stern site at least 20 times trying to figure out what was possibly coming "soon" over the last 3-4 years.  

 

[joeDowntown]

4 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

Fair enough.    :-)  

I guess I was revealing the fact I've looked at the Lormax Stern site at least 20 times trying to figure out what was possibly coming "soon" over the last 3-4 years.  

 

I agree with you there. Just read the GRBJ talking about lack of retail spaces and I'm thinking "just build already!!" At Knapp's Crossing. 

I'd also love to see the lot in front of Celebration Cinema get developed  I think that one is going to be tricky with everyone wanting to park front row at the move theater.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

8 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

Fair enough.    :-)  

I guess I was revealing the fact I've looked at the Lormax Stern site at least 20 times trying to figure out what was possibly coming "soon" over the last 3-4 years.  

 

That is true. I'm hoping they're waiting for a good catch of retailers. Either that or they're battling it out against Woodland. 

[ctpgr34]

Apartments along the Beltline- http://springsapartments.com/knapps-crossing/

[mpchicago]

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/03/developers_say_retail_deals_ge.html#incart_river_index

My takeaway from this is the Lormax is having trouble getting retailers to jump on to the Knapp's Crossing bandwagon, and is using construction costs as an excuse? 

Edited March 14, 2017 by mpchicago

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, mpchicago said:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/03/developers_say_retail_deals_ge.html#incart_river_index

My takeaway from this is the Lormax is having trouble getting retailers to jump on to the Knapp's Crossing bandwagon, and is using construction costs as an excuse? 

I thought the same thing. 

[GRLaker]

6 hours ago, mpchicago said:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/03/developers_say_retail_deals_ge.html#incart_river_index

My takeaway from this is the Lormax is having trouble getting retailers to jump on to the Knapp's Crossing bandwagon, and is using construction costs as an excuse? 

I think interest was there. It's smack dab between Grand Rapids, EGR, Forest Hills, and Rockford and uppity shoppers won't be dealing with the issues they dislike about the 28th/EB shopping corridor. I think it's more an issue of the city denying high customer flow generators at that corner. They're being far too choosy and seem to act like they're closed off to business. If a business is looking to invest, they're going to invest in a city that actively seeks not only them, but also high customer generating establishments in other areas of retail/dining. Chick-fil-a would have been a gold mine of traffic flow. People that come to a place to eat are going to naturally look around and see stores that they want to check out. Bam...Store #1 just got a customer out of someone that came for the restaurant across the street. Store #2 gets the same customer as they walk outside and realize they need something there as well. You get the idea.

I'm not a Chick-fil-a slappy by any means. Heck, I haven't ever eaten there. But I do think it was bad business on the part of GR to send them packing and really makes it look like they'll turn up their noses at anything that comes along for that intersection. 

[GRDadof3]

28 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

I think interest was there. It's smack dab between Grand Rapids, EGR, Forest Hills, and Rockford and uppity shoppers won't be dealing with the issues they dislike about the 28th/EB shopping corridor. I think it's more an issue of the city denying high customer flow generators at that corner. They're being far too choosy and seem to act like they're closed off to business. If a business is looking to invest, they're going to invest in a city that actively seeks not only them, but also high customer generating establishments in other areas of retail/dining. Chick-fil-a would have been a gold mine of traffic flow. People that come to a place to eat are going to naturally look around and see stores that they want to check out. Bam...Store #1 just got a customer out of someone that came for the restaurant across the street. Store #2 gets the same customer as they walk outside and realize they need something there as well. You get the idea.

I'm not a Chick-fil-a slappy by any means. Heck, I haven't ever eaten there. But I do think it was bad business on the part of GR to send them packing and really makes it look like they'll turn up their noses at anything that comes along for that intersection. 

You're confusing Knapp's Crossing with Celebration Village. Lormax Stern was granted drive-thru's for several of their outlot tenants, including Potbelly and the credit union. D&W Pharmacy also has a drive thru. I don't think any of the back lot strip mall tenants are looking to add a drive thru. 

I think you may be using this as an opportunity to voice your frustration over not getting a CFA and not basing it on anything legit, and that has nothing to do with Lormax Stern's challenges. 

The "fact" of the matter is that a metro the size of Grand Rapids can only support one upscale retail area and it's a battle to the death between PREIT and everyone else in town trying to land upscale trendy chains that we don't have here. 

 

[MJLO]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

You're confusing Knapp's Crossing with Celebration Village. Lormax Stern was granted drive-thru's for several of their outlot tenants, including Potbelly and the credit union. D&W Pharmacy also has a drive thru. I don't think any of the back lot strip mall tenants are looking to add a drive thru. 

I think you may be using this as an opportunity to voice your frustration over not getting a CFA and not basing it on anything legit, and that has nothing to do with Lormax Stern's challenges. 

The "fact" of the matter is that a metro the size of Grand Rapids can only support one upscale retail area and it's a battle to the death between PREIT and everyone else in town trying to land upscale trendy chains that we don't have here. 

 

It would seem that PREIT has the clear leg up in that race when it comes to clout with retailers, funding, and existing infrastructure.