Norfolk Development 2

[HopHead]

I thought I read a few years ago that the city of Norfolk, or might have been the Hampton Roads metro area in general, said that they had officially stopped their pursuit of a major league sports team. As some of the other posters have pointing out, you need a state of the art arena seating probably at least 18,000 to lure a NHL or NBA team. You also need major corporate backing. IMO, the area's best shot at a major league sports team was when the Montreal Expos were looking to relocate back in 2004/2005. I know Norfolk was on the short list. Before then, there was no MLB team between Baltimore and Atlanta. Now you have the Nationals, and their $600 million ballpark. I think the next best thing for the area will probably be a potential MLS expansion team. It's a growing league and some of the recent expansion teams have had great success (see Seattle Sounders). The other four sports leagues are saturated with teams so I doubt you will see any expansion. And considering you have 9 teams from the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL between Maryland and North Carolina I'd say it would be tough to get a team from those leagues.

[varider]

I thought I read a few years ago that the city of Norfolk, or might have been the Hampton Roads metro area in general, said that they had officially stopped their pursuit of a major league sports team. As some of the other posters have pointing out, you need a state of the art arena seating probably at least 18,000 to lure a NHL or NBA team. You also need major corporate backing. IMO, the area's best shot at a major league sports team was when the Montreal Expos were looking to relocate back in 2004/2005. I know Norfolk was on the short list. Before then, there was no MLB team between Baltimore and Atlanta. Now you have the Nationals, and their $600 million ballpark. I think the next best thing for the area will probably be a potential MLS expansion team. It's a growing league and some of the recent expansion teams have had great success (see Seattle Sounders). The other four sports leagues are saturated with teams so I doubt you will see any expansion. And considering you have 9 teams from the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL between Maryland and North Carolina I'd say it would be tough to get a team from those leagues.

No, Virginia Beach has officially started their pursuit of an NBA team with the Pembroke Implementation Plan and such. I don't think the market is too saturated for pro sports. People here only support the Redskins because it's the closest thing we have to professional sports. Call it the Virginia ________ and support would come from all over the state. Between the Richmond- HR market I'm sure we could fill an arena on any given night. If you build it, they will come. Between Norfolk and Virginia Beach, eventually ( could take 50 years), one of them will get an NBA team. In case you don't know, this is the most populated MSA without one.

[mlsimons]

In case you don't know, this is the most populated MSA without one.

Wow, that fact is a little sickening...

[varider]

http://www.encyclopediajr.com/wikiarticle/...orts_league.php

The most populous independent metropolitan area outside of a major franchise's local market is the Hampton Roads region of Virginia, nearly 200 miles from the nearest major sports teams in Washington, D.C. It previously hosted a successful franchise in the American Basketball Association. Virginia is also the most populous state without a team within its borders.

[HopHead]

No, Virginia Beach has officially started their pursuit of an NBA team with the Pembroke Implementation Plan and such. I don't think the market is too saturated for pro sports. People here only support the Redskins because it's the closest thing we have to professional sports. Call it the Virginia ________ and support would come from all over the state. Between the Richmond- HR market I'm sure we could fill an arena on any given night. If you build it, they will come. Between Norfolk and Virginia Beach, eventually ( could take 50 years), one of them will get an NBA team. In case you don't know, this is the most populated MSA without one.

Well, you might want to get in line now then... Several established sports cities are already well ahead of VA Beach in terms of already having a facility ready (Kansas City and Louisville--I believe their facility will be done next year). Like I said you need an existing state of the art arena in place before you can even think of having a shot at landing a team. I've been to the Scope before and that doesn't qualify, even for a short term solution as someone else already mentioned. After that, you need someone with deep pockets to bring a team in. You have any friends with $500 million? This is what you'd need for a fee to get the team and support the payroll. It's nice to dream big about having a team, but I'm sure plenty of other cities have that in their "vision" for the next 50 years... These visions are nothing more than that. Where we would like to be in X number of years. They don't have hard fiscal plans, they can't predict the economic conditions... No one could've predicted this mess the country is in now. MSAs don't mean much for support of a team. Look at cities like Atlanta and Miami. They have excess of 5 million people and they struggle to support their teams. The Braves make the playoffs and they still have empty seats during those games. People in Miami would rather sit on the beach than roast in their stadium on a hot Sunday. And don't even get me started on how the NHL makes no sense in either of those markets.

You don't think the market between MD and NC is already saturated with teams? There's no way you put an NFL team in VA and expect there to be enough people to support it. People support the Redskins b/c that's all they've known all their lives. The NFL knows this and that's why you won't see a team in VA, b/c the Redskins already are Virginia's team. Dan Synder knows this also and he'd never allow it in a million years. That's why I suggested the MLS b/c it's a a growing league that's pretty much untapped in the Southeast. Atlanta tried to get a team, but I don't think they want to go there. I heard of one potentially in the Carolinas but I doubt the league would want a team here either.

Edited August 3, 2009 by dbull75

[varider]

Well, you might want to get in line now then... Several established sports cities are already well ahead of VA Beach in terms of already having a facility ready (Kansas City and Louisville--I believe their facility will be done next year). Like I said you need an existing state of the art arena in place before you can even think of having a shot at landing a team. I've been to the Scope before and that doesn't qualify, even for a short term solution as someone else already mentioned. After that, you need someone with deep pockets to bring a team in. You have any friends with $500 million? This is what you'd need for a fee to get the team and support the payroll. It's nice to dream big about having a team, but I'm sure plenty of other cities have that in their "vision" for the next 50 years... These visions are nothing more than that. Where we would like to be in X number of years. They don't have hard fiscal plans, they can't predict the economic conditions... No one could've predicted this mess the country is in now. MSAs don't mean much for support of a team. Look at cities like Atlanta and Miami. They have excess of 5 million people and they struggle to support their teams. The Braves make the playoffs and they still have empty seats during those games. People in Miami would rather sit on the beach than roast in their stadium on a hot Sunday. And don't even get me started on how the NHL makes no sense in either of those markets.

You don't think the market between MD and NC is already saturated with teams? There's no way you put an NFL team in VA and expect there to be enough people to support it. People support the Redskins b/c that's all they've known all their lives. The NFL knows this and that's why you won't see a team in VA, b/c the Redskins already are Virginia's team. Dan Synder knows this also and he'd never allow it in a million years. That's why I suggested the MLS b/c it's a a growing league that's pretty much untapped in the Southeast. Atlanta tried to get a team, but I don't think they want to go there. I heard of one potentially in the Carolinas but I doubt the league would want a team here either.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the VB Sportsplex was built for MLS? While the NFL would be less likely to work, the NBA market is not saturated, neither is MLB. Nobody here cares about the Wizards or the Bobcats, and only a few care about the Nationals. Who knows. I think if a team ever comes to V.A. it will be here. I just don't see how V.A.could go teamless for the rest of time. It's just not gonna happen.

[brikkman]

I still believe the NBA is feasible for the near future.

[varider]

Me too. If basketball has been here once, it'll be here again.

[Padman]

Virginia Beach is making no such claim for an NBA team as of yet. The Pembroke Study is a long range land use plan in which a site near Witchduck Rd. was identified as being one possible location for a sports facility. An initial thought apparantly was to maybe build a football stadium, but that was downsized somewhat. A stadium could just as well be built in Norfolk, Chesapeake or even Portsmouth someday. The Pembroke Study is to be a general guide, with some specific ideas regarding uses that might be appropriate for certain subareas. It's also only in rough draft form, not published yet. But I can tell you that some of the graphic work will be fairly exciting, without being overly ambitious (I've seen the draft, but I didn't work on it).

[urbanlife]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the VB Sportsplex was built for MLS? While the NFL would be less likely to work, the NBA market is not saturated, neither is MLB. Nobody here cares about the Wizards or the Bobcats, and only a few care about the Nationals. Who knows. I think if a team ever comes to V.A. it will be here. I just don't see how V.A.could go teamless for the rest of time. It's just not gonna happen.

I dont remember if the Sportsflex was built for that or if it was what they had in mind of expanding it for.

There will probably be no more new NFL teams, and Virginia is a Redskins state anyway. With the Orioles and the Nationals, it would be hard pressed for HR to get a MLB team...besides, I only see MLB expanding by two more teams in the AL. MLS, NHL, and NBA are the three leagues that I can see going to Hampton Roads. The past attempts at NBA and NHL were flawed to begin with, the owner of the teams Norfolk tried to get, they dogged a bullet by not getting those teams and having to deal with Shoe? (I forgot the owner's name that tried to move a couple teams there once).

But clearly the NBA would do good in HR, MLS is a growing league that will be expanding over the years...NHL, that one is an iffy, I dont see that working well in HR cause the area never felt like a hockey region.

I also dont think a city needs to take the risk at building an empty stadium of any kind just to hope to score a team...when it comes to expansion teams, it is better to get the rights to a new team, then build a new stadium under a short deadline. Which it is more important for a city to have the land owned by the city and set aside for a possible team. As for getting an existing team, that is where it becomes tricky and often times is much harder to score a team that way without having a temporary solution in place or a stadium already built, which is a huge waste of money unless the stadium was built for another team that moved away years before.

[Sky06]

Getting an expansion team might be difficult. A more likely scenario would be to go for a relocation franchise, as was mentioned with the Expos. A team in a comparable-sized city that doesn't draw that well. There are actually quite a few of those. Nevertheless, I'd agree that an arena would be needed first. But Norfolk probably couldn't and shouldn't go it alone. Imagine the no-taxes crowd getting a hold of that one. The problem is the cities around here argue too much about the location. What difference does that make really? The entire region could benefit, so we shouldn't be squabbling with each other over petty things. Hell, why not tear down the crappy shopping centers across from Military Circle? The corner of I-264 and Mil Hwy could be ideal with improved access. And you're not more than a mile from Norfolk, VB, or Chesapeake. What would there be to complain about?

[varider]

I think the most appropriate location for a arena is cedar grove transfer station. Wouldn't it be great to see the Norfolk Skyline when they went to commercial breaK? At least I can dream.

[brikkman]

Getting an expansion team might be difficult. A more likely scenario would be to go for a relocation franchise, as was mentioned with the Expos. A team in a comparable-sized city that doesn't draw that well. There are actually quite a few of those. Nevertheless, I'd agree that an arena would be needed first. But Norfolk probably couldn't and shouldn't go it alone. Imagine the no-taxes crowd getting a hold of that one. The problem is the cities around here argue too much about the location. What difference does that make really? The entire region could benefit, so we shouldn't be squabbling with each other over petty things. Hell, why not tear down the crappy shopping centers across from Military Circle? The corner of I-264 and Mil Hwy could be ideal with improved access. And you're not more than a mile from Norfolk, VB, or Chesapeake. What would there be to complain about?

I agree, that would be a good area for even though most of us would love to see it in DT, that's not a bad idea.

[virginia pe]

The problem is the cities around here argue too much about the location. What difference does that make really? The entire region could benefit, so we shouldn't be squabbling with each other over petty things.

It makes a huge difference. It is definitely not "petty". An arena or stadium becomes a capital asset once it is built. No city wants to spend its tax money on a capital asset in another city. It would be like you and me agreeing to build a swimming pool and splitting the cost 50-50, but the pool will go in my back yard. Would you agree to that?

There are other issues, as well. Who gets the revenue from parking and concessions? Who controls the venue and determines which events to book? Who hires the ushers, concessionaires, janitors, etc? If my tax money is paying for the venue, I would expect my city to recoup some of its expenses indirectl by increased employment, etc. Benefits to the region do not necessarily equate to a benefit for my city, or a return on my city's investment.

There are some petty issues as well, like bragging rights, egos, and convenience. But the real issues are about the money. For us taxpayers, it's always about the money.

[varider]

Every city should pay for all the finances related to an NBA team.. Norfolk and Virginia Beach should pay the majority, but all the other cities should pitch in. Build the arena now, next time a team is ready to move, I bet they'd love to relocate to hampton roads.

[Sky06]

I agree, that would be a good area for even though most of us would love to see it in DT, that's not a bad idea.

I'd prefer DT, but it this meant getting VB on board, I'd take it.

[Sky06]

It makes a huge difference. It is definitely not "petty". An arena or stadium becomes a capital asset once it is built. No city wants to spend its tax money on a capital asset in another city. It would be like you and me agreeing to build a swimming pool and splitting the cost 50-50, but the pool will go in my back yard. Would you agree to that?

There are other issues, as well. Who gets the revenue from parking and concessions? Who controls the venue and determines which events to book? Who hires the ushers, concessionaires, janitors, etc? If my tax money is paying for the venue, I would expect my city to recoup some of its expenses indirectl by increased employment, etc. Benefits to the region do not necessarily equate to a benefit for my city, or a return on my city's investment.

There are some petty issues as well, like bragging rights, egos, and convenience. But the real issues are about the money. For us taxpayers, it's always about the money.

I got it, but that's why it takes some planning and some give and take. I think you miss my point when I say "What difference does it make?" My point there is no matter where you put the arena, the entire region could benefit as long as the proper planning were done. However, for some reason, cities around here think they can't benefit at all as long as the facility is 1 mile away on the other side of the city line. And because we have multiple cities, it's absolutely necessary that we stop trying to go things alone. The questions you raise above are certainly valid, but where this region has failed in the past is that our cities just don't know how to cooperate and compete as a region against other united regions. They only think of themselves. Gee, look at high speed rail for a recent example. Everyone wants the diamond in their city or it's a no-go. Everyone wants 90% of revenues, or you can count me out. No one wants to give a little. Regardless of taxes, of revenues, of money, cooperation has worked very well in other regions. Share the costs and risks, share the benefits. In fact, many regions are beginning to develop revenue-sharing agreements for economic development in general. Sure, the devil's in the details, but we're all big boys and girls. We can figure this out if we really wanted to. Imagine what this region could do if it worked together in that arena (no pun intended)?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Sky06

[virginia pe]

I got it, but that's why it takes some planning and some give and take. I think you miss my point when I say "What difference does it make?" My point there is no matter where you put the arena, the entire region could benefit as long as the proper planning were done. However, for some reason, cities around here think they can't benefit at all as long as the facility is 1 mile away on the other side of the city line. And because we have multiple cities, it's absolutely necessary that we stop trying to go things alone. The questions you raise above are certainly valid, but where this region has failed in the past is that our cities just don't know how to cooperate and compete as a region against other united regions. They only think of themselves. Gee, look at high speed rail for a recent example. Everyone wants the diamond in their city or it's a no-go. Everyone wants 90% of revenues, or you can count me out. No one wants to give a little. Regardless of taxes, of revenues, of money, cooperation has worked very well in other regions. Share the costs and risks, share the benefits. In fact, many regions are beginning to develop revenue-sharing agreements for economic development in general. Sure, the devil's in the details, but we're all big boys and girls. We can figure this out if we really wanted to. Imagine what this region could do if it worked together in that arena (no pun intended)?

Regional cooperation is harder to achieve in Hampton Roads than in most regions. Most metropolitan areas have one dominating city and a cluster of bedroom communities. There are only a few metropolitan areas that have more than one major city - Tampa-St. Pete and Minneapolis-St Paul come to mind. Hampton Roads has Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Newport News - each a strong city in its own right. So we end up naming our area for a body of water (Hampton Roads) instead of a city. The lack of a strong, dominant city makes it harder to accomplish major projects in this region.

To gain regional cooperation, a regional authority is necessary to make all of the cities work together. We managed to do it with transit (HRT) and sewer treatment (HRSD); we had no choice. Because of economy of scale, those amenities cannot exist on a city-by-city basis, and a city cannot survive without these amenities. We were less successful with trash disposal (SPSA). Getting enough cooperation from all of the cities to form a regional sports authority, or a regional sports venue authority will be difficult, expecially since a sports venue is not a necessity. In addition, because of Virginia's unique constitution, any such regional authority has to have the blessing of the General Assembly, and sometimes that is not easy to get.

A few years ago, Norfolk brought in some hotshot consultant that had successfully worked with other metropolitan areas in establishing regional authorities for issues like transportation and entertainment. I haven't heard anything about him for quite some time.

[Padman]

There's also the issue of negative equity. The stadium may cost more to create and to run than it would gain. Economic multiplier effects (those would be positive) would be captured mostly by the host community, but not spread to the region. It would be hard to formulate a fair plan for a regional sports facility, but I guess anything is possible in theory.

[Telmnstr]

The city and taxpayers shouldn't pay ANYTHING for a stadium for a sports team. Professional sports figures are already overpaid. I don't care about overpaid idiots chasing a ball. Salaries should be capped at $100K. Too many kids set their life ambition on a pretty unobtainable goal. It'd be better to have them aiming to be something other than a baller, so they don't end up robbing convenience stores once they don't make it.

Also, what's up with the old bank building on York street in Norfolk? Been demo'ed and looks like they are building out something. For sale signs are gone. Was on the market for 1.2 mil (2400sqft x 2 IIRC?)

Work is progressing on fixing up the front of the selden arcade. Both commercial spots on York are vacant. One has been vacant for 2+ years.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Telmnstr

[willy]

The city and taxpayers shouldn't pay ANYTHING for a stadium for a sports team. Professional sports figures are already overpaid. I don't care about overpaid idiots chasing a ball. Salaries should be capped at $100K. Too many kids set their life ambition on a pretty unobtainable goal. It'd be better to have them aiming to be something other than a baller, so they don't end up robbing convenience stores once they don't make it.

Also, what's up with the old bank building on York street in Norfolk? Been demo'ed and looks like they are building out something. For sale signs are gone. Was on the market for 1.2 mil (2400sqft x 2 IIRC?)

Work is progressing on fixing up the front of the selden arcade. Both commercial spots on York are vacant. One has been vacant for 2+ years.

WOW, how would like it if we cap your salary because we don't think you deserve it?

Edited August 5, 2009 by willy

[jbhay]

Sorry if this is posted elsewhere, but I don't feel like digging through the threads to find it.

What is the new building directly south of York Street across the street from the Belmont, next to the YMCA, with the parking structure attached in the back?

[varider]

Sorry if this is posted elsewhere, but I don't feel like digging through the threads to find it.

What is the new building directly south of York Street across the street from the Belmont, next to the YMCA, with the parking structure attached in the back?

Hmm. Could it be he belmont? lol It's on both York St. and Bute St.

[Telmnstr]

WOW, how would like it if we cap your salary because we don't think you deserve it?

The taxpayers aren't paying for me to be here at work.

I don't take home $30 million for chasing a ball around.

If more people looked to join me in the workforce instead of ball players, society would be a better place.

Instead, the US falls farther and farther behind other countries.

My employer has never gone to the city to say they needed a stadium.

It's why I don't subscribe to cable TV. I don't need to subsidize ESPN for the others, I don't need to subsidize Disney for the others.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Telmnstr

[varider]

Players salaries don't come from taxes? They come from fans spending $70- $300 a ticket to watch a game. Haha subsidize ESPN? What are you talking about man??