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7 hours ago, BFG said:

I will never understand why Norfolk wants to look like Virginia Beach and Chesapeake, while those two cities are building up areas with 10- to 15-story buildings, if not higher. Like...how is Greenbrier of all places becoming more urban than Norfolk?! Does city council not realize that you can still have 200-something units in a tower, then use the leftover land for a garage or a second tower?

Nothing wrong with Virginia Beach. The city’s financial condition, school system and quality of life speak for themselves. However, something’s most definitely wrong with Norfolk’s leadership at present.  Hopefully a change is gonna come.  

 

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This project has updated renderings and is on the agenda for discussion at the Dec. 7th ARB meeting. View the entire agenda at the following link: http://norfolkcityva.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?

I apologize if I missed this somewhere else. But an application to the architectural review board was submitted for 611-615 35th Street to renovate the building into mixed use. This plan would take it

DEVELOPMENT UPDATES:   Freemason civic league meeting tonight w/special guests  ...a councilwoman and a member of the city manager's office-- Gateway tower is a "go" with a big fish landed .

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I'm not expressing vitriol to VB; my comparison refers to the fact that Norfolk continues to give us generic suburban developments that waste land, while VB and Chesapeake build upward. I'd love to wake up tomorrow and SPQ looks like Town Center or Summit Pointe.

Outside of that, my gripes with VB come from the old guard's refusal to work with other cities and instead compete with other cities. Norfolk continues to live rent free in the heads of people like John Moss and John Atkinson, whereas they shouldn't be so obsessed, considering all that VB has going for it. So, for those reasons, the outlet mall and light rail debacles, and the dog whistles that residents express, I admit I hold resentment. That said, I'm willing to give credit where its due, as their success benefits the region as a whole.

But, in all fairness, don't you exhibit quite a bit of hostility towards Norfolk as well? The area as a whole has its flaws, to be honest.

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On 12/15/2020 at 8:59 AM, EJ_LEWIS said:

Again another new complex in Norfolk with parking lots everywhere.  Would it have killed them to hide the parking lot behind the building.   

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/vp-nw-campostella-homeless-apartments-20201213-m3nxootqs5g4xn2trtkksdyibu-story.html

In the case of these apartments, it's not located in a "downtown" area or anything and realistically, if you were renting here, would you want an apartment right up against the main road or up on the water? There's a reason why the parking lot is on the road and the apartments are on the water here.

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1 hour ago, vdogg said:

For everyone, be careful to ensure that your comments are not of a personal nature. Vigorous debate is ok, but stay focused on the point and not the person.

Fair enough and I apologize to baobabs or anyone else if it came across that way. 

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2 hours ago, BFG said:

Fair enough and I apologize to baobabs or anyone else if it came across that way. 

No problem, no offense taken. I would just like to point out that I am often critical of Norfolk’s leadership, not its citizenry, nor the place. As I’ve said before, I lived  in Freemason for the better part of 17 years. I owned rental properties downtown, as well.   My Great-grandparents came to Norfolk around 1900, my grandparents on both sides were from Norfolk. My parents grew up in Norfolk and moved to the Beach  decades ago. Yes, I grew up in Virginia Beach, but I chose to move to Norfolk to buy my first residence and my first investment properties.

So I think I have a unique perspective on both cities. I love both places, equally, and for different reasons; however, I do think that Virginia Beach has better leadership and direction at the moment. I wish Norfolk all the best, as always. 

As for the lack of regional cooperation over the years, I do think that both cities have to bear their fair share of the blame.  The way that Norfolk was “robbed” of future growth by Chesapeake and Virginia Beach has definitely hurt Norfolk. Consequently, there has been an ever-growing power shift over the years away from Norfolk and toward Virginia Beach & Chesapeake. Many generations of leadership in Norfolk resented the Beach and its ascendancy. And they acted accordingly. The Beach was also quite racist at times in dealing with Norfolk. And they acted accordingly.

From a purely strategic angle, I’m always saying that each City will act in its own perceived best interests—in Machiavellian terms leveraging its assets against the other or making cutthroat decisions based on self interest calculations that actually might harm the other—until such time as respective leadership in both cities are convinced that the positive returns on such a strategy no longer exist, or more succinctly that actual self harm will occur...(if they continue to operate in such a manner).

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I was born in Norfolk but raised in Virginia Beach.   I unfortunately don't have deep family roots in Hampton Roads, but I do have many of my former neighbors who I see as family.  My Father was born in DC and raised in Arlington and my Mom was from Natchez, Miss.  They moved to Norfolk in 1954 in order for my Father to start his Dental practice off of Church St. thus my brother and sisters were all born in Norfolk.  I love the city of Norfolk and so wish the two cities would just get along.  It seems Norfolk is in competition with Virginia Beach on who  will be the big dog in Tidewater.  This is so counterproductive.   There is a glimmer of hope that the whole area may coalesce around Norfolk's bid to build a first class arena.  Also Virginia Beach's Mayor is very interested in improving service at Norfolk Int'l Airport.  Baby steps I guess.  

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Zepplin 14 I guess I've lived up here in DC for far too long.  I had forgot there may be a reason for parking lots in the front.  Is it possible that the parking lot is a buffer between the water and the buildings?  Urban living usually means not relying solely on a car to get around.  I would not expect the apartments to right on the street, but a wide sidewalk which I have seen here in DC may provide somewhat of a buffer.  The parking everywhere simply looks suburban.  The railroad district is supposed to be Norfolk's answer to Richmond's Scott's Addition.  There the new apartments are right on the street with parking in the back.  I would think that maybe a slight of hand could make the apartment appear to open to the street.  I've seen it where there is a small mound in front of the apartments to give the appearance of a barrier to the street.  I know I have seen it before.  

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2 hours ago, EJ_LEWIS said:

Zepplin 14 I guess I've lived up here in DC for far too long.  I had forgot there may be a reason for parking lots in the front.  Is it possible that the parking lot is a buffer between the water and the buildings?  Urban living usually means not relying solely on a car to get around.  I would not expect the apartments to right on the street, but a wide sidewalk which I have seen here in DC may provide somewhat of a buffer.  The parking everywhere simply looks suburban.  The railroad district is supposed to be Norfolk's answer to Richmond's Scott's Addition.  There the new apartments are right on the street with parking in the back.  I would think that maybe a slight of hand could make the apartment appear to open to the street.  I've seen it where there is a small mound in front of the apartments to give the appearance of a barrier to the street.  I know I have seen it before.  

Zeppelin is on point here. These apartments are across the river in a area that is not walkable. While it would be great to add a less suburban look here. It just does not make sense for the area. 

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Work on the property between 2706 and 2722 on Colley Avenue, which has had a had a “coming soon” sign for renovations over the past year, has finally started.  I can’t seem to find any planning documents but the sign has a rendering that would be a major improvement to the awful state of disrepair  the building has been in over the past few years.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I’m sure this will receive its own thread, but I’ll let Vdogg make that call. 

City of Norfolk announces that four (4) major development groups have emerged as the leading contenders to redevelop Military Circle in a very big way.  And three of the four groups have significant arena development/management experience. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-norfolk-military-circle-redevelopment-rfq-companies-20210105-3fr2mltszngehdm5joejjsfsnm-story.html

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I see them going with Pharrell or Bruce. WAVY posted an article that talks about the General Assembly allowing for a commission to build a 15,000-seat arena. Needs to be at least 17,000. Don’t limit your options with a too small venue, and don’t see yourself up for future expenses down the line by having to pay for an expansion. 

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Yes, and remember there’s a whole lot more to these proposals than an arena.  Hotels, shopping, offices, restaurants, entertainment and light rail expansion, etc. In fact, the City didn’t even ask for an arena, so we’re still not sure what’s to come. 

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I think an arena outside of downtown is a huge mistake. If a private developer wants an arena at MIlitary Circle, let them fund it. I am excited about the possibilities at Military Circle though. (I did not read the article)

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28 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

I think an arena outside of downtown is a huge mistake. If a private developer wants an arena at MIlitary Circle, let them fund it. I am excited about the possibilities at Military Circle though. (I did not read the article)

At least it is in between two close "downtowns" with LRT access.  This could certainly be a lot worse (*cough cough* Richmond).

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Military Circle would be a great place to build an arena.  Like someone commented above Military Circle is between Downtown Norfolk and the Virginia Beach Town Center.  Also two major interstates are nearby I-64 and I-264.  The light rail station is nearby which will allow for access for people who don't want to drive to the Arena.  This area is a natural for a large arena.  

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I also imagine that if other cities are gonna help with this, it needs to be closer to their city limits. Military Circle is pretty close to both Chesapeake and VB. 

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It just seems to me that all the effort over the last decade or two to reinvent and reenergize downtown would be harmed if a new arena were not built downtown. Most of what we talk about here is in downtown or very near; the office towers, light rail, hotel towers, apartment complexes, entertainment venues, commercial development, most of the exciting stuff is downtown. A completely new arena is a holy grail of  development and it seems like that is WHAT all the effort has been for, to put things like this downtown when the RARE chance arises. An arena, and the people and revenue it would lure are the precise reason why people have invested so heavily in downtown. To not put it there makes these investments more risky for the people who made them and sort of ignores them. All putting an arena at Military Circle does is pushes for the city to now provide infrastructure there when they have already invested in it and it exists downtown. Having said all this I am very excited about an arena, no matter where it may end up being.

We have a real opportunity now with the potential casino development and an arena. I have said a couple of times I feel like both are proposed for the wrong locations. If the casino goes where proposed, to me it makes it more essential to put an arena very close to it not far away from it. I just hope we get both of these rare chances right. I'm not concerned about proximity to VA Beach. They had their opportunity (with both light rail and an arena) and blew it. I just don't want Norfolk to do the same (or at a minimum hurt the momentum downtown has had).

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I think my biggest concern with an arena is where can it go downtown? If we want this in the next five years, I'd say build in SPQ, but obviously that's already planned out for the future. Light rail exists, but I can't imagine there being enough roads to handle 15,000 fans when you only have one Interstate leading into downtown. I don't know the timetable for knocking down Young Terrace, but I really don't want the area to wait more than a few years to do something they should've done 25 years ago. MacArthur is another great site, but its future is even more questionable than Military Circle's.

When the "Rhinos" NHL team was proposed in the late-90s, the plan was to tear down the.......whatever that hotel across from Scope is. They change names every few years, it seems, but there. I think you'd have to close off the remainder of Monticello though.

Maybe the old USPS site? 

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13 minutes ago, BFG said:

I think my biggest concern with an arena is where can it go downtown? If we want this in the next five years, I'd say build in SPQ, but obviously that's already planned out for the future. Light rail exists, but I can't imagine there being enough roads to handle 15,000 fans when you only have one Interstate leading into downtown. I don't know the timetable for knocking down Young Terrace, but I really don't want the area to wait more than a few years to do something they should've done 25 years ago. MacArthur is another great site, but its future is even more questionable than Military Circle's.

When the "Rhinos" NHL team was proposed in the late-90s, the plan was to tear down the.......whatever that hotel across from Scope is. They change names every few years, it seems, but there. I think you'd have to close off the remainder of Monticello though.

Maybe the old USPS site? 

All very valid points. Thank you. My thought is either retrofit the MacArthur Mall (the Starwood project ain't happening and large malls are dying all over the country) to keep some retail and include a new arena in the footprint. The parking infrastructure and light rail stop is already there and it's easily accessible from the interstate. My second choice would be to get rid of Scope and build a new arena there that pays homage to the architectural style of the Scope.

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I’m not even sure where to put this. We have so many Arena threads already I think I’m going to wait for things to be a bit more fleshed out before dedicating a specific thread. We don’t even know the scope of the project yet, and a lot of that will depend on who is chosen.

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On 1/7/2021 at 3:07 PM, carolinaboy said:

It just seems to me that all the effort over the last decade or two to reinvent and reenergize downtown would be harmed if a new arena were not built downtown. Most of what we talk about here is in downtown or very near; the office towers, light rail, hotel towers, apartment complexes, entertainment venues, commercial development, most of the exciting stuff is downtown. A completely new arena is a holy grail of  development and it seems like that is WHAT all the effort has been for, to put things like this downtown when the RARE chance arises. An arena, and the people and revenue it would lure are the precise reason why people have invested so heavily in downtown. To not put it there makes these investments more risky for the people who made them and sort of ignores them. All putting an arena at Military Circle does is pushes for the city to now provide infrastructure there when they have already invested in it and it exists downtown. Having said all this I am very excited about an arena, no matter where it may end up being.

We have a real opportunity now with the potential casino development and an arena. I have said a couple of times I feel like both are proposed for the wrong locations. If the casino goes where proposed, to me it makes it more essential to put an arena very close to it not far away from it. I just hope we get both of these rare chances right. I'm not concerned about proximity to VA Beach. They had their opportunity (with both light rail and an arena) and blew it. I just don't want Norfolk to do the same (or at a minimum hurt the momentum downtown has had).

To my knowledge, not one single dollar of new investment downtown over the past 30 years has been predicated on the future development of an arena in downtown.  And I lived in and invested in downtown from 2003 to 2020.

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On 1/6/2021 at 3:10 PM, Icetera said:

At least it is in between two close "downtowns" with LRT access.  This could certainly be a lot worse (*cough cough* Richmond).

I agree. Military Circle is more central to the major population centers of S. HR, and Highway and secondary road access there is far superior to DT.  DT is pretty much a cul de sac ...complete with tunnels.  Add to that the ever-present DT flooding issues, and MC is a no-brainer. 

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