NoDa (N Davidson St Arts District) Projects

[Niner National]

I've been in favor of the city spending money on several things in the past that benefited the community as whole, but if this happens, I would no longer blame Ballantyne residents for wanting to leave the city.

[tozmervo]

I can't recall, do they have a historical designation? I'd be concerned that CB would basically hold the buildings hostage and say they'll be bulldozed otherwise.

[New Name]

Yes - they are protected. They can't be bulldozed - and there is a clause in the contract that if CB doesn't start/complete work at a certain time - the city has the option to buy back the buildings at a discount.

[atlrvr]

I know Community Builders from my time in Boston and in low-income housing finance. They for the most part are a very repuatable firm that does a great job. That said, I agree. They made a business decision to made a bid and had time to do due diligence. It's unfair to other firms that may have been able to execute if they had been able to purcahse for less.

The city should not provide any sort of cash rebate as that is horrible policy. Doing things like waving permitting fees, or allowing changes in approved uses are a grey area that I'm ok with. If Community Builders can't be successful, then the city should (at the most) buy back the mills are current market value which would be roughly previous sales price plus the market value of the improvements that CB has already performed.

Thanks Escapist....sounds like the city can do what I suggested. While I don't wish blight on any neighborhood, I'd rather see these buildings sit as opposed to establishing bad policy.

[tozmervo]

Well, here's hoping they don't go up in mysterious flames.

[southslider]

Given the historic status of the property and its proximity to the BLE, the City's hands may be tied by the Feds.

[UrbanGossip]

FYI : These buildings are not federally designated yet. TCB were going to go after historic tax credits that would be tied to their renovations, but they are just that - tied to their renovations. So no, their hands are not tied federally. The only thing keeping these buildings up is the local historic designation and the contract with the city per the recent sale. The local historic designation only delays demolition for 1 year once notice is given that they want to take them down.

Now, for some background laced with my opinion.

When Winter Properties first approached the city and the HLC (Historic Landmarks) with a proposal for a joint venture between them and the HLC 2 years ago they should have taken it (if they were legally allowed - see point 1 below). Knowing the state of the buildings, their proposal included some demolition that the HLC indicated would be acceptable to them. A few things happened to scuttle this deal :

1. The city was concerned about how this would look - striking a backroom deal for a property owned by the city and taxpayers. Very legitimate concern and probably had real legal implications. So, it probably did have to go out to bid.
   
2. The city got greedy and thought "since this group is interested maybe we can make some real money back on this economic black eye we've been dealing with for the past 15 years" and put it all out to bid.
   
3. Some leaders in the neighborhood pressured Patsy and others on council and the Planning Commission to keep the buildings at all cost - presumably out of some sense of nostalgia. Now feeling pressure from their constituents in the neighborhood the council politically had to go along with the "save every brick" mentality even though it was not economically viable.
   
4. Because of items 2 and 3 above, in the bid process the city candy coated the state of these building trying to court some buyers and increase the sale price. TCB beat out the competition not knowing what they had bought. In the business that is called "winning the job only to lose in the end". The competition was very aware of the state of the buildings and let them "win" knowing they were going to lose in the end.
   

So, there you have a timeline of this debacle admittedly laced with my opinion. The neighborhood, in particular a few key leaders, are every bit as culpable in this as Council, The Planning Commission, and TCB (for not really doing their homework). I said from day 1 that if the neighborhood wasn't willing to bend on this nostalgic love they have for these buildings they would get a derelict property for the next 10 years. I say 10 years because that it is the time frame before TCB contractually has until they owe the choice to the city to either buy them back or let them demolish. And TCB will absolutely sit on this property for that time frame if they have to.

I personally want to see them renovated to some level, but I think some allowance for demolition must be made to make it economically viable or it will never happen.

[UrbanGossip]

One more thing. I don't think any more money should be given to TCB. If any is given it should be flagged for very specific demolition in order to allow the project to go through. The comment earlier about 60k per apartment and being able to build ground up is right on. Not having really studied it I don't know this, but demolition of a few key areas could free up room for some ground up apartments, therefor internally subsidizing the renovation.

[lewy2000]

Interesting perspective from TCB on the mills project:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2xVq3JHRD5EUjFsOFZpTFotWlk

[southslider]

^^I'd definitely rather see the contract amended to allow some demolition for new apartments on-site and achieve the suggested "internal subsidy," instead of any more City funding going to this site. However, would the other developers, whose bids were rejected (due to demolition not being favorably viewed in the prior RFP) then contest such move?

[UrbanGossip]

Interesting perspective from TCB on the mills project:

https://docs.google....UjFsOFZpTFotWlk

Very Interesting. Can't say I disagree with much or any of it. The timeline they lay out leading up to them taking control is pretty much spot on. The description of the tours in particular. I liked the wording "attempts by the City to dispose of the property". I do believe that TCB is acting in good faith. Sometimes you will see developers enter into something like this knowing that they will be asking for more money/concessions once they think the city is neck deep, but I don't believe they are. They might not have known quite what they were getting into like the locals familiar with the history, particularly the former developer of the apartments there, but that's not surprising.

Typically the city (or any seller for that matter) would have allowed an option on the property to allow the developers to perform extensive due diligence, but that was not allowed on this deal. That was a part of some of the other teams offers but the city responded striking all such stipulations. Probably because they knew what the result would be, which is where they are now.

I'm afraid the we, the neighborhood, are going to have these empty buildings for quite some time to come. The terms of the agreement were that TCB cannot demolish the buildings for ten years from date of contract, period. If at the end of that time period they want to demolish they have to offer it back to the city at a discount of the original purchase price. I can't remember what the discount was but I think it was 75%. Along the way they have to keep it secure, both from vagrancy and further degradation. I'm afraid that is the direction we are headed unfortunately. At best they will probably wait until the LRL is operational and they can get more favorable terms from lenders because the property is more desirable with the LRL, thereby making the economics work a little better.

Edited September 21, 2012 by UrbanGossip

[Prodev]

Heard rumons Woodfield is moving forward as the developer of Mercury NoDa. Likely, it will be called Woodfield NoDa or some variation of that. They're supposed to close on the land before year end and start construction Q2 of next year.

[dubone]

That is good news, especially if we are back on hold for the mills project.

[UrbanGossip]

Approval last night for $1.25 M from the city for TCB. They were able to miraculously find a way to do it for half of what they originally asked for! Ha ha. It is basically just the city paying them to move forward and forget that the city misled the bidders. If I were one of the other bidders I would have something to say about this...

Well, in the end it is a great thing for the neighborhood and I hope it can make the wheels turn. The neighborhood turned out in support and that's what makes our neighborhood so great; it's active.

[TotalLamer]

Approval last night for $1.25 M from the city for TCB. They were able to miraculously find a way to do it for half of what they originally asked for! Ha ha. It is basically just the city paying them to move forward and forget that the city misled the bidders. If I were one of the other bidders I would have something to say about this...

Well, in the end it is a great thing for the neighborhood and I hope it can make the wheels turn. The neighborhood turned out in support and that's what makes our neighborhood so great; it's active.

This is great news. There would be no greater shame than letting those buildings waste away.

[ah59396]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is ludicrous. Let's spend $1.25 million on every historical building in the city...

[tozmervo]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is ludicrous. Let's spend $1.25 million on every historical building in the city...

actually it wouldn't be that bad, given how few are left.

[dubone]

Nah.. this isn't just 1.25m for vanity. It is using SAVINGS from federal affordable housing grants on affordable housing on affordable housing, with the bonus of being the adaptive reuse of historic structures.

These buildings were left to go to waste with termites and rot. We have federal programs to encourage affordable housing, but most neighborhoods eschew that type of development. NoDa is a rarity in that the liberal-minded residents there are welcoming workforce housing in their neighborhood, so absolutely the city council did the right thing in applying that money to this project.

All in all it is like free money, given that it is savings from projects that came in under budget. So we got happy surprises elsewhere, but unhappy surprises with this project given the state of disrepair that they were in. Hesto presto, problem solved.

[UrbanGossip]

Nah.. this isn't just 1.25m for vanity. It is using SAVINGS from federal affordable housing grants on affordable housing on affordable housing, with the bonus of being the adaptive reuse of historic structures.

These buildings were left to go to waste with termites and rot. We have federal programs to encourage affordable housing, but most neighborhoods eschew that type of development. NoDa is a rarity in that the liberal-minded residents there are welcoming workforce housing in their neighborhood, so absolutely the city council did the right thing in applying that money to this project.

All in all it is like free money, given that it is savings from projects that came in under budget. So we got happy surprises elsewhere, but unhappy surprises with this project given the state of disrepair that they were in. Hesto presto, problem solved.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is ludicrous. Let's spend $1.25 million on every historical building in the city...

No money is free, but it was waiting on affordable housing to be put to use. I think the insanity of it being applied to this project becomes clear when you look at how much it is going to cost to fit these units into buildings that are falling apart. Then the amount of money spent for the up keep. That 1.25 mil could have been more efficiently applied to ground up construction. But the NoDa residents that have been living here for 5 years are nostalgically attached to these mills that shut down 25 years ago, and council members need their votes, ergo 1.25 mil (which is about the price TCB paid so they are basically just giving them the land for free).

So, no Whistle Stop, you're not alone. I am glad for the eventual result in that we won't have these buildings falling into the ground anymore, but not particularly happy about how it's going down. TCB is gaming the city expertly to make up for their mistake in paying too much for the land and the city is going along to make up for their mistake in misleading the bidders.

[TotalLamer]

No money is free, but it was waiting on affordable housing to be put to use. I think the insanity of it being applied to this project becomes clear when you look at how much it is going to cost to fit these units into buildings that are falling apart. Then the amount of money spent for the up keep. That 1.25 mil could have been more efficiently applied to ground up construction. But the NoDa residents that have been living here for 5 years are nostalgically attached to these mills that shut down 25 years ago, and council members need their votes, ergo 1.25 mil (which is about the price TCB paid so they are basically just giving them the land for free).

So, no Whistle Stop, you're not alone. I am glad for the eventual result in that we won't have these buildings falling into the ground anymore, but not particularly happy about how it's going down. TCB is gaming the city expertly to make up for their mistake in paying too much for the land and the city is going along to make up for their mistake in misleading the bidders.

You'd seriously rather have 1.25m built on some form of generic, from scratch, stick-built apartments rather than converting these buildings that actual have some semblence of history and character? Both things Charlotte lacks greatly.

[New Name]

Considering the $4M in the coffer is for use in a project like this, has not been used in the past, is not earmarked for use any other use, and would be replaced annually by City of Charlotte lobbyists (whom we do pay a LOT of money), why not put it to use in a signature neighborhood next to a future signature light-rail stop? For me, this is only partially about historic preservation of the buildings - this is about investing in 3 very visible blocks in the center of a very visible neighborhood.

[UrbanGossip]

You'd seriously rather have 1.25m built on some form of generic, from scratch, stick-built apartments rather than converting these buildings that actual have some semblence of history and character? Both things Charlotte lacks greatly.

No I wouldn't rather. I love what was done with Alpha, Highland, etc and generic dribble like some examples even in NoDa is the last thing I would want. This will be equally great to the other mills and the neighborhood will get what it wants. Great, the neighborhood wins. Except that it is a tremendous waste of money for the token affordable units that will be drop in the bucket of need for affordable housing in Charlotte. That money and the rest that Escapist referred to can go a lot further for ground up is all I'm saying.

And Esacpist you are right; it hasn't been used and that's a shame. The reason is because more neighborhoods in Charlotte aren't like NoDa. The majority have the "not in my back yard" mentality. Kudos to NoDa for welcoming it. Groups like Charlotte Housing Partnership and even CHA are having a hard time finding sites they can be allowed to build and put that money to use.

[ah59396]

Well I look at it differently. The fact is, it isn't free money, no matter how you spin it. And I get very tired of the "well it's already there, let's just spend it on the first thing that comes along" argument. Seriously, outside of the budget plan vote a couple months ago, what is this city council not willing to pay for? How many times are we going to buy the old hotel, old mall, old mill (that we already sold), baseball field (on land that we gave for free), ect.

I'm selfishly excited about some of these projects but I still don't agree with the city paying for them. Investing in our infrastructure is important but it needs to be at a level of sustainability that doesn't further increase tax rates in the city. It may not be you or I, but there are people living in this city who are struggling to pay their bills as is. I'm not in favor of forcing them out with higher tax rates to help pay for a restored mill that, like UrbanGossip stated, is too expensive to be used for affordable housing.

I'm in favor of affordable housing, but not at that cost. I understand it is a federal grant and doesn't come out of the city coffers, but this money could have been better utilized for it's intention, not protecting old mills. At some point in the future, it will affect the city financially.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment.

Edited October 10, 2012 by ah59396

[TotalLamer]

No I wouldn't rather. I love what was done with Alpha, Highland, etc and generic dribble like some examples even in NoDa is the last thing I would want. This will be equally great to the other mills and the neighborhood will get what it wants. Great, the neighborhood wins. Except that it is a tremendous waste of money for the token affordable units that will be drop in the bucket of need for affordable housing in Charlotte. That money and the rest that Escapist referred to can go a lot further for ground up is all I'm saying.

And Esacpist you are right; it hasn't been used and that's a shame. The reason is because more neighborhoods in Charlotte aren't like NoDa. The majority have the "not in my back yard" mentality. Kudos to NoDa for welcoming it. Groups like Charlotte Housing Partnership and even CHA are having a hard time finding sites they can be allowed to build and put that money to use.

Are "workforce housing" and "affordable housing" and "Section 8" all the same thing?

[New Name]

It is an interesting commentary that the city is acknowledging and acting to offset the gentrification of NoDa. I'm not sure they would have done this if it weren't for the liberal (myself included) NoDa residents - especially since Charlotte has a track record of facilitating gentrification.

Just to play devil's advocate: Would those who are opposed to this project be more likely to support it if it had been some sort of mixed-use/historic-preservation-museum-site/market-place project? (I'm thinking along the lines of Charleston's City Market + a housing component) If it were to remain a public/private place and not to ultimately end up in the hands of a private owner?