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Gaslight Village - East Grand Rapids


GRDadof3

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Amen to that. Wonder why they haven't given downtown a shot yet. Their offices are at College and Michigan, so they are interested in staying in the inner city.

They've already done their share of the downtown thing. 234 N. Division was a major rehab project they did, their offices were there for several years. Their preference is certainly new retail development as opposed to historical bldg. rehab on speculation; however as downtown evolves and residential density increases perhaps they will again have a reason to work down here...

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Did I hear correctly that Jade Pig no longer owns their current building on Michigan or their racing garage across the street? Maybe they will be moving in a few years.

edit: probably not correct. I know the buildings surrounding the bagel shop have been sold to a Doctor's group.

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I think DAR Development (or another developer) plans to put up a building with four or five storefronts along Wealthy in front of D&W. It will be interesting to see this whole package when it is completed.

Oh great. DAR has purchased just about every remaining piece of property on the north end of Plainfield and turned into strip mall hell.

If it is DAR I hope they set their bar a bit higher, I haven't been impressed so far.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Beautiful day for some photos:

Really nice photos, dbrok. Have to say, though, I really dislike the use of the once

dignified facade of the bank building in this manner. That side shot really shows how

that rest of the building doesn't 'fit' the front. I understand why it's done this way,

I just don't dig it. Seems forced and artificial. Kind of like building Main Street at

Disneyworld. I know this development will be clean and beautiful, but a little

bit of grit would keep it real.

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Really nice photos, dbrok. Have to say, though, I really dislike the use of the once

dignified facade of the bank building in this manner. That side shot really shows how

that rest of the building doesn't 'fit' the front. I understand why it's done this way,

I just don't dig it. Seems forced and artificial. Kind of like building Main Street at

Disneyworld. I know this development will be clean and beautiful, but a little

bit of grit would keep it real.

The problem I have with the bank is that all of the other "building fronts" are the same height as one another, which is about 5' shorter than the bank. Some of the other buildings, like that one on the other corner need to be a little taller to ballance it out.

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Really nice photos, dbrok. Have to say, though, I really dislike the use of the once

dignified facade of the bank building in this manner. That side shot really shows how

that rest of the building doesn't 'fit' the front. I understand why it's done this way,

I just don't dig it. Seems forced and artificial. Kind of like building Main Street at

Disneyworld. I know this development will be clean and beautiful, but a little

bit of grit would keep it real.

Does anyone have photos of the Mutual Home facade (the one now in Gaslight Village) in its original location?

Here it is in a very early concept of the west end of Monroe Center. The Mutual Home Building is on the right.

120600455_905c541ff7_o.jpg

There was talk of relocating it to the entrance of the Ellis parking lot west of Tre Cugini's (where the glass is in this sketch):

120600453_44e8feb452_o.jpg

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Does anyone have photos of the Mutual Home facade (the one now in Gaslight Village) in its original location?

Here it is in a very early concept of the west end of Monroe Center. The Mutual Home Building is on the right.

There was talk of relocating it to the entrance of the Ellis parking lot west of Tre Cugini's (where the glass is in this sketch):

120600453_44e8feb452_o.jpg

OK, civitas, fess up. Where did you find THAT artist's rendering of a reworked Monroe Center? :blink: I've never seen that before.

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OK, civitas, fess up. Where did you find THAT artist's rendering of a reworked Monroe Center? :blink: I've never seen that before.

That was before the Art Museum and before Maya Lin got involved. Many of the ethnic festivals were getting too big for Calder Plaza and the goal was to create a memerable urban space that could be expended into the public street rights-of-way when more room was needed. Rosa Parks Circle (the big "O") is very nice, but it doesn't offer as much flexability as the sketch.

The original Paul Friedberg design with the waterfall wall had the greatest physical barrier between the amphitheater and the street. It was too small for many functions and the world had learned by then that well-intended pedestrian malls were killing downtown retail streets. This sketch was done with a series of others during the fund raising phase of reopening the street to traffic.

William Whyte said about 20 years ago in "Cities: Rediscovering the Center" that he never saw a pedestrian mall that couldn't be a few blocks shorter. I think they're all gone now.

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That was before the Art Museum and before Maya Lin got involved. Many of the ethnic festivals were getting too big for Calder Plaza and the goal was to create a memerable urban space that could be expended into the public street rights-of-way when more room was needed. Rosa Parks Circle (the big "O") is very nice, but it doesn't offer as much flexability as the sketch.

The original Paul Friedberg design with the waterfall wall had the greatest physical barrier between the amphitheater and the street. It was too small for many functions and the world had learned by then that well-intended pedestrian malls were killing downtown retail streets. This sketch was done with a series of others during the fund raising phase of reopening the street to traffic.

William Whyte said about 20 years ago in "Cities: Rediscovering the Center" that he never saw a pedestrian mall that couldn't be a few blocks shorter. I think they're all gone now.

Do you think they'll bring back the idea to build on that lot next to Tre Cugini? That's a nice atrium there, which could transition into Greedo's Tower idea :whistling:

The building across the plaza is too suburban looking.

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Do you think they'll bring back the idea to build on that lot next to Tre Cugini? That's a nice atrium there, which could transition into Greedo's Tower idea :whistling:

I had a appraisal done years ago on a public parking lot in Kalamazoo that was being considered for private development. On an income approach the land was more valuable as a parking lot that as an office building.

I think the Ellis family would find the same true of their parking lot.

The market rules. It will only be something else when something else brings more money to the table.

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Really nice photos, dbrok. Have to say, though, I really dislike the use of the once

dignified facade of the bank building in this manner. That side shot really shows how

that rest of the building doesn't 'fit' the front. I understand why it's done this way,

I just don't dig it. Seems forced and artificial. Kind of like building Main Street at

Disneyworld. I know this development will be clean and beautiful, but a little

bit of grit would keep it real.

I think that the bank facade is growing on me. I was in EGR twice this past week and it stands out very uniquely. The concept to save the front of a GR building was a great idea and I guess I'm still up in the air as to whether it's a good fit with the rest of the building. It definitely represents postmodern architecture at its finest: piecing together materials and styles from different timeperiods into one project. Whether it will stand the test of time remains to be seen.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry to change the subject, but I wanted to cross post these thoughts from my blog because, well you'll see:

New Urbanism and East Grand Rapids

New Urbanism has become enormously influential, according to this NPR report about an Atlanta community called Glenwood Park. An alternative to the "auto centered suburb" is what they are after, and the success of these communities is off the charts.

Alex Marshal, a critic of New Urbanism at times, makes a good point when he says:

The Achilles' heel of New Urbanist developments has been their "downtowns," the classic "main streets" meant to be at the heart of the developments. If they were built, and successful, it would be a significant improvement on suburban life. But the reasons these mini downtowns fail point to the structural flaws in the whole theory of TNDs.

Retail needs an enormous accessible customer base to succeed. Street-level retail in cities get this from enormous density and the therefore enormous quantity of people that walk by their front doors. Suburban retail get this by locating on a main highway where a high volume of traffic goes by their parking lots.

New Urban developments have generally tried to locate their mini-downtowns in the center of their low-density subdivisions. The result is that they have neither enough pedestrian, nor enough auto, traffic to make retail succeed. The "main streets" of virtually all New Urban developments have failed.

An exception is the Disney-produced Celebration in Florida. But it may be the exception that proves the rules. Disney had the enormous financial muscle to build the downtown first, before any homes were built or sold. It also had the marketing muscle to pull in tourists to its shops, even though the downtown lacks immediate access to a main highway. Tourists are making these shops succeed, not residents.

He is correct in my estimation. Which is why it will be interesting to witness first hand my home town of East Grand Rapids as it adds density in an effort to rescue it's dwindling downtown retail customer base. Even though it wasn't concieved as a new urbanist community when it was founded a hundred years ago, East Grand Rapids is almost a perfect example of new urbanism, with mixed use residential, office, retail, schools and a lake all within walking distance of a village that even includes a large grocery store. I've been looking long and hard for new urbanist settings that might rival it's combination of walkable village atmosphere and family friendly recreational lifestyle. I've not found it, although I've not been to Seaside.

EGR isn't known to be affordable, but compared to Seaside it is a total bargain. Gaslight Village is about to take on a bit more density when the new Jade Pig developments are finished. My guess is that the trend toward new urbanism will continue, and that EGR will one day be highly regarded as one of the true original new urbanist communities that evolved from natural forces and community needs.

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Sorry to change the subject, but I wanted to cross post these thoughts from my blog because, well you'll see:

FWIW: it looked like the retail at Cherry Hill Village in Canton, MI had gone almost completely vacant as of two weeks ago. 6 months ago it was doing a lot better (coldstone, etc).

Also, here's a list of TND communities if you want to check that guys theories:

http://www.tndtownpaper.com/neighborhoods.htm

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FWIW: it looked like the retail at Cherry Hill Village in Canton, MI had gone almost completely vacant as of two weeks ago. 6 months ago it was doing a lot better (coldstone, etc).

Also, here's a list of TND communities if you want to check that guys theories:

http://www.tndtownpaper.com/neighborhoods.htm

Yikes! Cherry Hill Village was a great plan too.

clip_image001.jpg

I can totally see this guy's point. Neighborhood centers like Wealthy Street, Cherry Street and West Fulton work because of a lot of density AND through vehicle traffic. They pretty much are what New Urbanists dream of but can't seem to make work. I'm very excited by the new Gaslight Village, and would love a smaller house within walking distance of downtown EGR :shades:

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I'm very excited by the new Gaslight Village, and would love a smaller house within walking distance of downtown EGR :shades:

There are actually plenty of small houses for sale in and around Gaslight Village. It is a "buyers market" as they say. Although I don't think prices have actually dropped, they are holding steady and sellers are probably getting a little desperate in some cases. I'm not sure that will be the case when the totality of the redevelopment becomes apparent.

It seems that the concept of new urbanism has not caught on fully with the average West Michigan citizen, although higher gas prices and congestion are helping to turn the corner. The business community in West Michigan is also remarkably focused on sustainability, which helps. But the density issue is not going away -- most people who can afford to choose between suburban and urban lifestyles still prefer the quiet suburban alternative to the density and higher land values that characterize successful urban neighborhoods.

Parents think about safety constantly, and urban settings with higher density are also prone to higher crime rates and schools that are not as good as their suburban counterparts. Urban settings with good schools and relative safety are rare, which is one of the reasons that EGR is such a gem.

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There are actually plenty of small houses for sale in and around Gaslight Village. It is a "buyers market" as they say. Although I don't think prices have actually dropped, they are holding steady and sellers are probably getting a little desperate in some cases. I'm not sure that will be the case when the totality of the redevelopment becomes apparent.

It seems that the concept of new urbanism has not caught on fully with the average West Michigan citizen, although higher gas prices and congestion are helping to turn the corner. The business community in West Michigan is also remarkably focused on sustainability, which helps. But the density issue is not going away -- most people who can afford to choose between suburban and urban lifestyles still prefer the quiet suburban alternative to the density and higher land values that characterize successful urban neighborhoods.

Parents think about safety constantly, and urban settings with higher density are also prone to higher crime rates and schools that are not as good as their suburban counterparts. Urban settings with good schools and relative safety are rare, which is one of the reasons that EGR is such a gem.

Being a "near burb" resident in a great school system, I personally can attest that there are certain features that I wish we had.

Although we know everyone on our cul-de-sac and think most of them are great, it seems like there needs to be a "special event" for everyone to get together, instead of it happening naturally.

Although there are plenty of kids for our kids to play with, it would be nice to have some older couples or families to add some mixture to the street.

Although we have sidewalks and a park in the neighborhood, it would be nice to be able to walk or bike ride outside the neighborhood without fear of being run down by traffic.

Although there is a perception of safety, there have been issues in our neighborhood regarding car windows being shot out and other problems. Nothing like break-ins or assaults, but a co-worker of mine in Caledonia had a rash of breakins in their neighborhood just recently.

I'm neither anti-suburb nor anti-urban. There are certain "quality of life" features that we look for. Good schools being a high priority right now. East Grand Rapids seems to offer a lot of those things (albeit very expensively in both home values/sf and property taxes)

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I recently received a very fascinating paper from GVSU Siedman's College of Business dealing with the Central-City/Suburban house price differential. You can read it here:

Tiebout Dynamics: A Small-Area Study of the Response to a Central-City / Suburban House-Price Differential.

The paper studies the Ottawa Hills Neighborhood in Grand Rapids to the neighboring East Grand Rapids neighborhood, literally across the street. The study found that exactly the same homes in both Ottawa Hlls and East Grand Rapids had a $100,000 price differential. They also concluded (you can read the study to find out how they came to this conclusion) that there is one sole reason for this large price differential: the public school system.

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. East Grand Rapids seems to offer a lot of those things (albeit very expensively in both home values/sf and property taxes)

And worth it. Some quick math can confirm for you that, although our proprty taxes are higher, when compared to the amount of appreciation that EGR homes enjoy far outpaces the marginal increase in taxes over other communities.

And you get an incredible school system to go with it-- all in a near-downtown lake-centered community with an awesome 'town square' being revamped by some very qualified private investors AND the municipality and it is a great place to be.

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I was in EGR a few days ago to look at the progress of this new development. It was a nice day and there were people everywhere. It had all the appearances of a very vibrant mixed-use street. Overall it was very pleasant.

The Jade Pig project seems like a very good example of New Urbanism, even if it is not being touted as such. The buildings are fairly well executed and stylistically I am not sure that anyone would have a problem with them, for the most part. They are simple representations of multi-story mixed-use urban typologies.

A few of them are a bit quirky, like the one with the wavy application on the front, and it also lacks a real proper storefront. Overall they seem pretty decent, although maybe a bit "fake". I would gladly welcome more buildings done like this.

This may be one of the better examples of NU regionally.

There are some other questions.

IF this becomes successful, what happens to the other side of Wealthy, where the buildings are mainly one story and frankly not all that nice, especially with the stone veneer look?

What about the guy who wants to make the condos facing Reeds Lake taller? Is it appropriate to allow him to do so?

If this development is successful, the context of EGR could change substantially and I am not sure the citizens would neccessarily embrace this.

The other question is the other side of the coin. I am not sure how much retail is in the new development, but how much can EGR support? It seems they have more than the can support currently, especially because much of it is more boutique kind of stuff. Will this new retail be destination kind of things?

As far as the general NU retail comments, it is true that in many, many cases the retail has not gone the way that it was planned. Cherry Hill is failing. Kentlands retail went suburban, Seaside took many years to develop, Laguna Beach proposed retail went somewhere else (I think that is still true).

It has indeed been a struggle with retail. Bob Gibbs, out of Birmingham, is one of the experts and they continue to refine the concepts of retail for these kind of projects.

Retail is working at mixed-use TOD's in California, like Mission Meridian. Mission Meridian is a good mix of retail and residential. But there are a lot more examples in and around the Pasadena area. Most of them executed by Moule and Polyzoides. The density and demand for land has helped this, but so to as the light rail. Mission Meridian is one of the better executed projects that I have seen. The design and urbanism really come together on it.

While the retail was a bit iffy at Kentlands, some really good organic things happened there. The live-works have really become a nice little main street, with a restaurant and the Town Paper being a couple of users of these buildings. Additionally Kentlands will be refining the retail, learning from what went wrong.

Keep in mind that the kind of things that are at issue, have been entrenched for over 60 years and they will not change overnight. These new concepts of retail are going to take a long time to become accepted.

Gas prices may lead us to begin to accept urban retail in the very near future.

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