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Pittsburgh Designated Media Area Ranking bogus?


PghUSA

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quote name=PghUSA' date='Nov 6 2005, 11:56 PM' post='241667]

Sun, your link is dead.

Here it is:

(pdf)

2004 FAA stats

As far as your hubric comment on Seattle and Pittsburgh being not equal, even if I conceded the DMA (a ranking you insist is irrelevant thus really not applicable), the other standards such as Fortune 500, Fortune 1000, College populations, Research Univ.'s, Sports teams, and Skyscrapers all point to a link between Seattle and Pittsburgh.

I don't agree. Other than corporate HQs, Portland is more similar to Pittsburgh in those areas than Seattle. Portland has as many research universites as Seattle does, 1. And as for sports teams, both Pittsburgh & Portland may be at two in the near future. I have heard the Pens being rumored to move to Portland again the other day because of some potential arena financing fallout in PA.

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quote name=PghUSA' date='Nov 7 2005, 01:13 AM' post='241670]

Oh and as compelling as future trending projections of what could be passenger boardings in some point in the future, lets compare present day operations.

O.K.

Passenger boardings:

Seattle - 14,092,285

Pittsburgh - 6,606,117

Portland - 6,379,884

PIT is ranked #32, PDX #33.

Although boardings are a nice stat (present ones a bit more relevant), I prefer to look at what the layman would see as airport operations . . . in essence just that aircraft operations at an airport.

That's silly. Van Nuys is a powerhouse airport I guess in your mind.

DMA I will give you (Pittsburgh at #19 even with Wheeling etc.) is a bit closer to Portland but moving closer to Seattle.

Even if you did add the other areas, Portland is growing pretty quickly & will pass it regardless.

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Van Nuys doesn't have COMMERCIAL traffic to the extent of Seattle or Pittsburgh.

If you notice Sun those stats I provided were with % of Commercial Traffic and the final numbers were the average commercial traffic per day. It would be silly for a industry website to cite the commercial traffic percentages and fail to note the # of boardings. Which stat would be more relevant to the industry you think?

Also if I am correct those stats you cite (I did finally find it on FAA) were from 2004 when USAirways broke its agreement with PIT and slashed flights in half but before Southwest started two dozen daily flights, HootersAir came in, Independence Air, Midway Express, United, and Northwest Airlines all doubled or tripled service in early 2005 and on. 2004 in short was an anamoly for Pittsburgh, as the AirNav stats show (10/2005) Pittsburgh has a Seattle like airport.

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. . . as far as the sports teams the Pirates were supposed to move to New Orleans, St. Petersburg and Charlotte since the early 1980's, the Penguins were supposed to move to Kansas City, Portland, Miami, Atlanta, Houston etc. ever since the mid-1970's. The Steelers even considered moving to Ohio or West Virginia in the late 1990's.

Lions, Tigers and Bears OH MY! The sky never fell for Pittsburgh on these, because they were bluffs, maybe but also because the community came together and saved them. Portland will have to gain 2 more teams before they are in Seattle and Pittsburgh's class.

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Van Nuys doesn't have COMMERCIAL traffic to the extent of Seattle or Pittsburgh.

You wanted to talk about aircraft operations, Van Nuys is a powerhouse in the capacity. Sea-Tac takes a hit in this catergory because of other nearby airports.

Pittsburgh has a Seattle like airport.

No it doesn't. It has way less passengers & air cargo. Pittsburgh has similar passenger #s to Portland & I don't know how much less air cargo than Portland because Pittsburgh doesn't even rank in the top 30. Combine the numbers of Sea-Tac & KCIA to see Seattle's real air #s.

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According to the latest stats (not 2004 data before SW, Ind, and HA came to PIT) from the FAA ( http://www.airnav.com/airports/ ) these are total commercial aircraft operations at the three in question:

Pittsburgh 971 average aircraft operations 60% of which are commercial

SeaTac- 971 average aircraft operations 59% of which are commercial

Portland 721 average aircraft operations 50% of which are commerical

So average commercial flights to and from those airports break down as:

Pittsburgh 583

SeaTac 573

Portland 361

How is this close Sun?

Also cargo is great and passengers are great but if they are the benchmark why would AirNav an industry leading site not cite those stats? If Pittsburgh is so much like Portland (or worse then Portland) why does it have almost double the amount of traffic?.

Also 2005 stats would be better, as I have said before USAirways made 2004 an exception to the rule in Pittsburgh, in 2003 PIT was a major hub with close to 500 flights a day just from USAirways, in 2005 it is a major point-to-point field with its traffic split pretty equally with newcomers Southwest, Independence and Midway as well as standards Delta and USAirways. 2004 was the transition year so projecting any future trend with those numbers vis a vis Portland or Seattle is pointless.

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quote name=PghUSA' date='Nov 7 2005, 01:39 PM' post='242243]

How is this close Sun?

Also cargo is great and passengers are great but if they are the benchmark why would AirNav an industry leading site not cite those stats? If Pittsburgh is so much like Portland (or worse then Portland) why does it have almost double the amount of traffic?.

Because most GA traffic is run out of Hillsboro, Troutdale, & Pearson.

Look at passenger #s, look at air cargo #s. If you don't beat me to them, I will post them later after work.

Also 2005 stats would be better,

In 2003, PIT is no where near SEA & only a rank away from PDX. I am sure in 2005, it will be more of the same.

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Sun,

Every city has GA Airports, I thought we were comparing apples to apples here. Pittsburgh International and SeaTac have over 570 commercial flights a day as of October 2005. Portland just doesn't.

As far as you bringing up the secondary airports in that city, are you looking to make a tally of every airport within 25 miles of SeaTac, Portland and Pittsburgh? I think for time's sake we just compare apples to apples, major international airport to major international airport. Pittsburgh doesn't get a bump in the numbers b/c of corporate or private jets/planes those are run out of Allegheny Airport or Monroeville or Rostraver or Latrobe Arnold Palmer among others.

Even if PIT did get a boost from those . . . the numbers I keep citing (570+ for both SeaTac and Pgh) are commercial passenger flights ONLY. Not military, not cargo, not private, not corporate, not anything but the Uniteds, Deltas, Southwests, etc.

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Given that Pittsburgh and Seattle are twins on # of commercial flights when compared to Portland I am curious on how the industry makes the origination #s so different, but I thought about that for a moment Sun, in 2004 USAirways was just beginning to halve the # of flights to Pgh, orgin traffic was low compared to the # of flights operated back in 2004 and 2003, because USAirways had us as a hub airport which was fantastic for direct flights to Frankfurt and London and Cancun but did not make consumers rush the gates b/c of the "fortress" hub USAirways built without much price competition.

In short Pgh had tons of connecting flights through their maintence HQ and main hub (yes back in 2003 and part of 2004 Pgh was bigger then Philly, Reagan and CharlotteDouglass for USAir), but orgin traffic was not hot on flying out of a "fortress hub" the same thing Southwest is fighting in Dallas with DFW and Lovefield (Wright Amendment).

If anything SunD you will see a big spike in origin traffic now that USAirways is half of what it was at Pittsburgh and getting smaller. Origin traffic is reaching record highs last time I checked at Pgh.

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Here are the stats (source: FAA):

Boardings:

2004:

Seattle/Tacoma - 14,092,285

Pittsburgh - 6,606,117

Portland - 6,379,884

2003:

Seattle/Tacoma - 13,109,153

Pittsburgh - 7,113,460

Portland - 6,059,860

2002:

Seattle/Tacoma - 12,969,024

Pittsburgh - 8,975,111

Portland - 5,978,025

2001:

Seattle/Tacoma - 13,184,630

Pittsbugh - 9,939,223

Portland - 6,168,103

2000:

Seattle/Tacoma - 13,875,942

Pittsburgh - 9,871,995

Portland - 6,754,514

Cargo (lbs):

2004:

Portland - 1,435,755,635

Seattle/Tacoma - 1,062,019,260

Seattle/King County Intl. - 892,135,450

Pittsburgh - 467,120,800

2003:

Seattle/Tacoma - 1,592,759,550

Portland - 1,497,545,970

Seattle/King County Intl. - 763,813,680

Pittsburgh - 447,615,700

2002:

Seattle/Tacoma - 1,761,010,360

Portland - 1,631,798,980

Seattle/King County Intl. - 781,775,040

Pittsburgh - 494,239,750

2001:

Seattle/Tacoma - 1,915,115,914

Portland - 1,614,520,500

Seattle/King County Intl. - 725,072,970

Pittsburgh - 489,565,400

2000:

Seattle/Tacoma - 2,119,517,890

Portland - 1,763,734,840

Seattle/King County Intl. - 856,064,310

Pittsburgh - 479,536,750

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This thread has gone crazy. Who cares who's airport has more passengers or cargo or whatever?

Every city is its own place. Bigger or smaller, I really don't care. I don't care if Pittsburgh is more similar to Portland or Seattle. I know it's a great city. I know it has some great universities, cultural amenities, wonderful neighborhoods, etc. I don't care how much it is or isn't like Seattle.

I know that Pittsburgh is greatly misunderstood. And I know that you can't really judge a place by numbers; although sometimes people try to do just that.

This thread began as a complaint about a misleading number. Now it has somehow turned into a contest of numbers. This is silly.

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So many Pittsburghers get an inferiority complex brought on by numbers and data showing the area being anything but the best, or biggest. The media market is what it is. Even as it is defined it includes parts of WV and Maryland, 15 counties. Many areas of the country have much smaller geographic markets because they are closer to other markets. There's no way you can compare PGH to Miami's market. Miami has three counties because of close proximity to other markets and is still much larger. Orlando only includes the surrounding 9 counties and is still larger. If it went out 15 counties it would be including Tampa and maybe even Jacksonville.

PGH is a great citiy and has been great for a long time. It has a skyline that is probably one of the three best in the country. The triangle is a smaller Manhattan like downtown. The sports teams, colleges, museums are all great. The scenery is beautiful most of the year as well, but some people need a sense of reality. Pittsburgh has become a smaller medium sized city. It use to be one of the largest medium sized cities, but that was thirty years ago. Other cities have passed it by. Many metro areas of comparible size do not have three major sports teams, nearly as many colleges, museums or cultural activities. Be happy you have what you do. I lived in PGH for 15 years, it's a great city. I've lived in Florida for 20 years now. Don't discount the growing cities. I've seen Miami and Tampa surpass PGH and Orlando is next. PGH recovered from the Steel industry decline much better than most areas would have. That's because of the great people who live there. The city declined and has now stabilized while other areas of the country boomed. It's not a knock to compare cities like Tampa, Portland, Orlando, Denver and even Jacksonville to PGH, just a reality that these cities have come up in areas to be compared with PGH.

There seems to be two mind sets in PGH. Many older folks are stuck in the 1970's glory years of PGH and still have the perception that the city is one of the top 10 cities in the country in everything. The younger generation seems to just want to live life in the great city it is now and enjoy what is has to offer and is not caught up in the rankings of everything.

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Sun,

I still don't understand why if Portland has as many passengers, Pittsburgh and Seattle have much more commercial flights (unless bigger jets are flying into Portland and Seattle). This stat according to AirNav.com

You might be right that over the last few years Pittsburgh and Portland are closer in comparison with airports. Pittsburgh though is transitioning from a hub to a point-to-point so the jury might still be out on that.

~~~~

Facilities,

Some excellent points, being that I was born in the 70's I've always had an afinity for them I think Tampa and Miami and Orlando have surpassed us not because they are BETTER but because Orlando DMA stretches over three census metro areas and Pittsburgh DMA barely over only two etc. Just as the sunbelt cities can gobble up more land (compare sq. mileage of Phoenix, Atlanta, Houston, Charlotte, Miami-Dade etc. with Pittsburgh!) there is a sense that their markets or metro areas (two very different things) are also very expansive, whereas in Pittsburgh somehow taking a drive to Wheeling Downs or sharing a suds with some West Virginians or Ohioans at the PG Pavillion or flying into PIT and driving 20 minutes to E. Liverpool is somehow like driving to Panama--oh NO uniform metro or market there.

I think you hit on some good points that SOME area residents need to improve on but becareful of the stereotypes and do understand that somehow Nielsen, US Census and the city limits around these parts can't seem to get a FAIR apples to apples comparison with the sunbelt cities. Oakland should be cut away from the SF metro and DMA, Tacoma from Seattle, St. Pete from Tampa and Sarasota too, Houston from Galveston etc. etc. In fact every city should shrink its tax base, influence and limit lines back down to where they were in 1948, that'd make Phoenix and Jacksonville and Miami-Dade virtually ungovernable today--kind of like what Harrisburg, Neilsen and the Census is expecting from Pittsburgh!

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Why you ask? b/c Wheeling et. al. are only "miles" away as well, three networks, one intl. airport etc. My major complaint is that SF and Sea. don't have apples to apples comparisons to Pgh. b/c of those discrepancies.

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^ Because it isn't apples to apples. See that pic above? Is that what it looks like all the way between Pittsburgh & Wheeling? It's been over a decade since I last passed through Wheeling but there is a lot of rural, less dense areas between the two. If Pittsburgh had a 2nd significant hub in its metro area, then it would have an apples to apples comparison. Bellingham-Seattle, Wheeling-Pittsburgh is a good apples to apples comparison.

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a decade makes lots of things change, although the area between Pgh and Wheeling has not built up as much as Seattle/Tacoma however the two do have their ABC tower right on the "line" their concert venue right on the "line" their collective intl. airport right near the line. It always stumped me why it takes LONGER to get from McKeesport to the airport then from wheeling to the airport or to E. Liverpool from the airport.

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a decade makes lots of things change,

Have you downloaded google earth yet? Take a tour from Tacoma to Seattle to understand how built up it is. It will take more than a few decades to get that kind of growth between Pittsburgh & Wheeling if ever. Then again to be fair, Tacoma is a lot closer to Seattle than Wheeling is to Pittsburgh. Like I said above, the best apples to apples comparison for Wheeling outside of Seattle is Bellingham. It is the next significant market away from Seattle that is its own market yet still greatly in Seattle's spehere of influence ala Wheeling to Pittsburgh. The only reason Bellingham isn't its own DMA is that its T.V. station is independant & not a network affiliate.

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To answer your question . . . yeah, I will admit that I haven't been able to model many other cities yet. I did notice that the goog though goes to a rural type of detail (not the sharper urban detail reserved for most metros) not even before it reaches I-79 in the west!! You might be right Sun, but you'll never know for sure using Google. If they cut out at the county line or at the state line maybe I could understand but such things as the Airport, one of the top 5 wealthiest communities in Pennsylvania, the only Ikea between Pennsylvania and Chicago, Robinson Town Center Mall, Beaver Valley Mall, Bayer North American HQ, SKGlaxo Consumer HQ, FedExGround global HQ, the Pittsburgh PG Pavillion (one of the top 10 concert venues in the nation thanks to crowds from "seperate" metros and DMA's making the concert venue a top 10 but the "markets" and "metros" not even top 20s!?!), the ABC TV tranmission complex, the new I-576, the new I-376 extension, etc.

Looks like the goog is taking the politically muzzled Nielsen and census stats at face value and decided not to dig into what really lies between Pittsburgh and the Wheeling/Steubenville/Weirton/E. Liverpool areas.

3 major HQ's, a major international airport, one of the top concert venues, and a top neighborhood in the nation, two major malls and retail complexes, and a major regional broadcast transmission center. I love google mapping but I'm hoping they are using this as a template to add on to the areas they currently cover as "urban".

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The detailed areas on google have nothing to do with urban vs. rural but availibility of detailed photos. They have the entire state of Missouri & the Idaho panhandle in high detail! I live in an urban area & I am not located within the higher detail area. After having google earth for a few months now, I have noticed they keep adding on. I am sure the rural areas around Pittsburgh will be added eventually.

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That's my hope too Sun, I'm sure they will, I did notice that the downtown area got higher def data recently (pgh).

I also see the entire state of New Jersey and Indiana are very detailed almost tree-to-tree resolution, so you're right some states either provided the data or do a lot of that type of data collection themselves.

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