Parramore's Future: Highrise Development or No?

[DelGreco]

QUOTE(orlandonative @ Nov 4 2005, 03:04 PM)

First off, I do more for this cities devlopement by 10 A.M. than you will do in your whole life.

As far as high rise devlopment in Paramore is concerned. It's not right and it certainly will not happen in the next couple of years let alone the next 15, trust me.

Lets stop buying out low income housing at fair market value because we can. Instead, build character. Lift those families up. Help them help the city.

In fact, its what puts food on my table, but not at the cost of displacing the very essence of what makes a city great and thats its people. Not just the ones that can afford the glitz, but all of them.

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OK, this is great discussion but it should be placed on a seperate thread called "Parramore's Future".

As far as your last post, it is way off base. I pray that you don't work for the City Planning Dept. because the poor developer's with creative ideas would all be discouraged.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your comments seem to suggest that you are against changing Parramore in a major way. I am suggesting if you really want to make a difference in Parramore, you must clean up ALL the transients and those engaged in illegal activities. The decent folks don't live in Parramore anymore! They already moved further west to Washington Shores. The remaining decent folks can be accomodated by the low-income housing currently being developed in Parramore. We need major commercial and mixed use development to clean it up. This will provide employment for the young people after proper rehabilitation to kick the alcohol and drug addiction. Why would a young person living in Parramore want to go to school or go to work and get $7-$10 hr when he can make $1000 day by pushing drugs?

I know the people living in Eola Hgts and Thorton Park feel they are far enough away from this but not really. Unless you permanently solve the problem Parramore, the transients will make their way over towards 55 West, Lk Eola, and Thorton Park and continue to harrass people and businesses in the area. Is that too difficult to understand? I already own in Uptown, Eola Hgts and College Park, but I realize the potential that exists in Parramore and I realize that unless it is developed to the same standards as the east side, people's investments will suffer. All I have to do is remind people what happened to the Orlando realestate market in the 80's. Those who bought on the east side (Eola Hgts, Thorton Park, and Colonialtown) in the early and mid 80's, lost value and money in the late 80's. It wasn't until the 90's that a couple guys named Rampy and Ustler came along and turned that area around. A couple of similar people will be needed to turn around Parramore too.

People spend alot of money and they want to protect their investment longterm. Downtown cannot become a destination without Parramore on board! I think Dyer and Lynum understand that and so does the educated and hard working African-American community, who by the way would love to come back to Parramore and leave Washington Hghts and Pine Hills.

So please don't tell me that high-rise development in Parramore shouldn't happen and won't happen for 15 yrs. There are already many developer's in the area planning major projects including myself. Therefore, if you are working for the city, let me know so the developer's can save their money instead of wasting it by making the folks at fbbarch rich with useless conceptual drawings.

I think we may be in agreement and just not realize it. If everybody thinks I am way off and unreasonable, I will gladly agree to stop expressing my opinion on this forum. My intention is not to offend anyone....

[DelGreco]

DO you think Orlando CItyPlace is a bad idea to put it in Parramore? I don't think so. Granted they are starting small by renovating the old Holiday Inn first, but I think it is a great investment in the future of Parramore. There will be approx. 5000 students and professionals walking those streets on a daily basis. DO you think some mix-use highrise development will be needed? Hmmm.....

Orlando CityPlace

The British are coming!!!

[WeNeed2Progress]

DO you think Orlando CItyPlace is a bad idea to put it in Parramore? I don't think so. Granted they are starting small by renovating the old Holiday Inn first, but I think it is a great investment in the future of Parramore. There will be approx. 5000 students and professionals walking those streets on a daily basis. DO you think some mix-use highrise development will be needed? Hmmm.....

Orlando CityPlace

The British are coming!!!

Man, the British have been coming. When you see them up as far as Lake Mary, you know you're being infiltrated... we're more than just a "holiday" spot.

Edited November 5, 2005 by WeNeed2Progress

[Dale]

40,000 Brits have taken up permanent residence in the Orlando area.

[jack]

There should be some highrises. But only in certain locations. When I say highrises, I mean 8-10 stories

[sunshine]

40,000 Brits have taken up permanent residence in the Orlando area.

Where can I find them?

[sunshine]

Most of the development now is right at the edge of Parramorre, the only two projects that are in the heart of Para is the BBIF and the Central Park. Hughey square is a good start but all the retails at the ground level remanined empty. By the time FAMU and UCF school finally opened, thhis will change paramorre to an up and coming area. 4000 people can do a lot for the area.

The best thing would be to develop the entire church street all the way up to the stadium with a new arena in between

[Dale]

Where can I find them?

You're kidding, right ? No matter where I am in town, scarcely a day goes by when I don't here a British accent.

[orlandonative]

I think we may be in agreement and just not realize it.

I can agree with that. And, no I don't work for the city. I absoultely agree that something needs to be done with regards to the homeless population downtown (100%). The Coalition already has plans to move their facilities down to south OBT, thats a start. I have always been of the mind that in order to affect a positive change in ones life, one must have a combination of not only education but hope. However I don't think that high rises in the middle of the ghetto help anyone other than the developers and the enthusiasts. Please understand, because I have now been misquoted twice, I think change is in order for paramore. No doubt, absoultely, 100%, full agreement (clear enough?) . I agree with jack, in the fact that development needs to be strategic, and most importantly beneficial to the current residents. Look at Winter Park, all up and down Morse. The residents, mostly black, were all but eradicated for the same claim that it would be better for them. The only thing thats changed is some rich white people have a place to make more money, and some poor black people can't afford new houses. If anyone think that inspired hope, think again. Paramore needs community centers, parks, law enforcement, schools. Not 40 story banks. Furthermore, I dont think that it is unreasonable to build large buildings along (hughey?) I-4, or two blocks west of I-4, in fact I've already been a part of one already. But the moment you start displacing residents to build something that they will never use, with the claim that it will be better for them, it's just wrong. I don't think that is that hard to understand.

[DelGreco]

I can agree with that. And, no I don't work for the city. I absoultely agree that something needs to be done with regards to the homeless population downtown (100%). The Coalition already has plans to move their facilities down to south OBT, thats a start. However I don't think that high rises in the middle of the ghetto help anyone other than the developers and the enthusiasts. Please understand, because I have now been misquoted twice, I think change is in order for paramore. No doubt, absoultely, 100%, full agreement (clear enough?) . But the moment you start displacing residents to build something that they will never use, with the claim that it will be better for them, it's just wrong.

Native, it appears we are in fact in agreement on the fact that Parramore needs to change in order for downtown to be a pedestrian friendly, 24hr a day, destination. This is already happening, but at a much slower pace than I would pefer.

Paramore needs community centers, parks, law enforcement, schools. Not 40 story banks. Furthermore, I dont think that it is unreasonable to build large buildings along (hughey?) I-4, or two blocks west of I-4, in fact I've already been a part of one already.

I agree, all this is needed. This can be accomplished west of Parramore Ave and south of Anderson St. Between Hugey and Parramore Ave should all be zoned AC-3 to allow high rises, much taller than the east side which is limited by FAA resctrictions. This corridor of commercial and mixed use buildings should generate alot of needed jobs for the decent folks in the area willing to work. It will also bring back the black community that left Parramore because it deteriorated. The problem is most of the educated and decent folks are not there anymore. All you have is unemloyed people who survive via "unorthodox" means. There is also a large population of single mothers with 3+ kids collecting SSI and on Section 8 HUD assistance. I don't think these folks will be willing to work for 7$-$10 hr.

Projects like Hughes/View (and soon Orlando CityPlace, BBIF, FAMU, Fed Couthouse, UCF Media School, etc.) is already having an impact. I think many developers see the potential and are planning more interesting projects for Parramore in the near future. As far as the crime/drugs, do you think the City can't clean it up on a sustained basis? With a few more officers, they certainly can. Where there is the will, there is away! It's amazing how clean that area gets right before a State and Federal official visit (Bush & Bush)...of course after a couple days the focus shifts elsewhere.

[DelGreco]

You're kidding, right ? No matter where I am in town, scarcely a day goes by when I don't here a British accent.

I agree, they are everywhere. Is it my imaginations but I also find alot of Germans all over Orlando. I guess Siemens (across from UCF) is a major German company, that may explain it. Could Orlando become another European trendy destination which is safer than hurrican prone Miami? Hmmm....if so, your investments downtown could translate in $$$!!!

[sunshine]

The whole area of Parramore need to be rebuilt in one single phase, a huge project like Midtown Miami, or Atlantic Station in Atlanta will change it. The closet way for us to change it now is to have the entire UCF medical school in the center of Paramore which I dont see is happening.

[prahaboheme]

The whole area of Parramore need to be rebuilt in one single phase, a huge project like Midtown Miami, or Atlantic Station in Atlanta will change it. The closet way for us to change it now is to have the entire UCF medical school in the center of Paramore which I dont see is happening.

That sounds like urban renewal and it failed miserably.

[sunshine]

Midtown Miami and Atlantic Station failed?

[prahaboheme]

Midtown Miami and Atlantic Station failed?

I've only seen Atlantic Station in pictures, and if its true that a picture can say a thousand words, then i'll put that aside. As for midtown Miami, it is a TOD, in an already fairly dense neighborhood. A stellar opposite to what exists in Parramore.

[sunshine]

I think Atlantic Station has low income housing.

[bobliocatt]

Midtown Miami and Atlantic Station failed?

Parramore is a historic neighborhood with people living in it. Midtown Miami was an abandoned railyard and Atlantic Station was abandoned industrial land. These are two totally different issues. Leveling Parramore would be similar to the failed urban renewal strategy for Ybor City in the 60s/70s or Jax's LaVilla neighborhood in the early 90s.

Edited November 7, 2005 by thelakelander

[DelGreco]

The whole area of Parramore need to be rebuilt in one single phase, a huge project like Midtown Miami, or Atlantic Station in Atlanta will change it. The closet way for us to change it now is to have the entire UCF medical school in the center of Paramore which I dont see is happening.

I like the sound of putting the Medical School in Parramore. If the City gives up all that land they acquired $5K-$10K each, under the threat of Eminent Domain, and contribute the $10 million that was donated by the Lk Nona developer, it could happen!

I think a new Arena together with the UCF Medical School makes alot of sense. That will really increase UCF's footprint in downtown Orlando.

Come on Dyer/Crotty, put the Med School in Parramore. It will be exactly between Florida Hospital to the north and Orlando Regional/Anderson Hospitals to the south.

I like this idea, more and more.....anybody have Dyer's/Crotty's cell number?!?

[DelGreco]

Parramore is a historic neighborhood living it it. Midtown Miami was an abandoned railyard and Atlantic Station was abandoned industrial land. These are two totally different issues. Leveling Parramore would be similar to the failed urban renewal strategy for Ybor City in the 60s/70s or Jax's LaVilla neighborhood in the early 90s.

Apart from the Well's African-American Museum (ex hotel), there is nothing Historic about it. Name one historic building, other than that one. The rest of Parramore all the way west to Westmoreland is abandoned and active industrial uses mixed in with run-down convenience stores and crack houses.

It all needs to be demolished, so they can start over and do it right, including several low income housing developments mixed in.

[prahaboheme]

Parramore cannot just consist of a medical school here, a law school there, an arena over there. It needs residents, high density residential blocks, retail, restaurants, infill and sensitivity. There is not a lot to save there, but what can be saved should, and I do trust that while the private market will take over, the public one should demand that each new development set aside a percentage of units as affordable, if for nothing else than respect to Parramore heritage.

[DelGreco]

Parramore cannot just consist of a medical school here, a law school there, an arena over there. It needs residents, high density residential blocks, retail, restaurants, infill and sensitivity. There is not a lot to save there, but what can be saved should, and I do trust that while the private market will take over, the public one should demand that each new development set aside a percentage of units as affordable, if for nothing else than respect to Parramore heritage.

I agree with that. Respect is good and that is why a few low-income housing developments are needed in the mix. But there is truly nothing Historic worth saving over there. The Central/Heritage Park under construction with an overpass bridge splitting the two retention ponds should be a nice touch. And if the BBIF puts together a Thorton Park type mixed use building, it will attract alot more infill from private investors.

[bobliocatt]

Apart from the Well's African-American Museum (ex hotel), there is nothing Historic about it. Name one historic building, other than that one.

I posted a few a couple of weeks ago.

Ebenezer Methodist Church - 1927

Mount Pleasant Missionary Baptist Church - 1920

Old Jones High School facade - 1921

The rest of Parramore all the way west to Westmoreland is abandoned and active industrial uses mixed in with run-down convenience stores and crack houses.

It all needs to be demolished, so they can start over and do it right, including several low income housing developments mixed in.

There's several historic buildings remaining in Parramore. They may not be up to your level of architectural merit, but together they form a community. Most of the buildings along the commercial stretch of Parramore Av. (between the E-W Expressway and Church St.) are historic. There's also several churches that have been around for years, that are still being used. Although the city did things, such as allowing homeless shelters, warehouses, auto repair shops, and housing projects to help destroy the neighborhood and chase out good citizens, its still a neighborhood with decent hard working people within its boundaries. Plus downtown is still full of parking lots waiting for infill development, so emphasis on that should be a priority imo. As far as Parramore goes, as I've said many times before, getting those homeless shelters out and rezoning to restrict future industrial uses should be a priority, as well as increased police protection. If these steps aren't taken, no redevelopment plan will work.

Edited November 7, 2005 by thelakelander

[DelGreco]

Ebenezer Methodist Church - 1927

Mount Pleasant Missionary Baptist Church - 1920

Old Jones High School facade - 1921

Let's not discuss churches, since all houses of Worship and God are considered Historic. Plus the church is not too fond of the lifestyle of most of the people on this forum!

Jones High School is in Washington Shores and not Parramore. Plus it is a school....why would you want to knock that down?

Most of the buildings along the commercial stretch of Parramore Av. (between the E-W Expressway and Church St.) are historic. Plus downtown is still full of parking lots waiting for infill development, so emphasis on that should be a priority imo.

You are kidding right....Parramore Ave is historic? No way! Granted some of those two story buildings might make for great stores at street level with lofts upstairs. Parramore Ave, between Colonial and E-W Expressway is the Orange Ave of the westside. It should all be commercial retail at Street level with several office/residential floors above.

The only two Parramore properties officially registered as National Historic Landmarks are the Wells Bilt Museum of African History/Art and a Victorian Style Quadraplex on South Street.

As far as infill on the east side, it will happen naturally, the momentum is there. The focus should be on the westside because it will be the key to making downtown a true destination that will attract the Big name retailers. Then again, what do I know.....

If I were you, I would pick up one of those houses over there for under $100K because a big developer might be knocking on your door sooner than you think...

[bobliocatt]

Let's not discuss churches, since all houses of Worship and God are considered Historic. Plus the church is not too fond of the lifestyle of most of the people on this forum!

Jones High School is in Washington Shores and not Parramore. Plus it is a school....why would you want to knock that down?

You don't even know history of your own community. The "new" Jones High School is in Washington Shores. The original, which is only a "facade" now, is located on Parramore Avenue, in the heart of the community. As far as, churches go, they're typically the heart of the urban black community and direct links back to what the neighborhood was before all the smut moved in. Regardless of wheter you agree with their moral standards, they deserve to be a part of urban Orlando, as much as anyone else.

You are kidding right....Parramore Ave is historic? No way! Granted some of those two story buildings might make for great stores at street level with lofts upstairs. Parramore Ave, between Colonial and E-W Expressway is the Orange Ave of the westside. It should all be commercial retail at Street level with several office/residential floors above.

I agree, but several of those two story commercial buildings are in fact, "historic" (50 years or over) and should be incorporated into the future of the community, helping to preserve portions of its heritage. As far as infill goes, there's room all over the neighborhood in the form of bland warehouse, car lots, homeless shelters and vacant lots. The focus should begin with those, instead of destroying structurally sound buildings with cheap rent, which allows mom & pop establishments to exist.

The only two Parramore properties officially registered as National Historic Landmarks are the Wells Bilt Museum of African History/Art and a Victorian Style Quadraplex on South Street.

As far as infill on the east side, it will happen naturally, the momentum is there. The focus should be on the westside because it will be the key to making downtown a true destination that will attract the Big name retailers. Then again, what do I know.....

If I were you, I would pick up one of those houses over there for under $100K because a big developer might be knocking on your door sooner than you think...

I wouldn't hold my breath. The community won't achieve its full potential until various social issues are addressed. Until then, there might be a spot development, here or there, but that's about it.

Edited November 8, 2005 by thelakelander

[DelGreco]

I wouldn't hold my breath. The community won't achieve its full potential until various social issues are addressed. Until then, there might be a spot development, here or there, but that's about it.

Well, it appears that quite a few "spot" developments are on the table already.....with plenty of eager developers waiting in the wings.

And the biggest "spot" appears to be CityPlace. It appears to be the next Tallest development which makes sense since there are fewer height restrictions on the west side of I-4. According to your logic, the developers of CityPlace must not have any vision or sensitivity to the social issues. I'm willing to bet it will become one of the most successful ventures considering that area will have over 5,000 professionals and students walking those streets in a couple years.

May I also assume you were against Kuhn's Premiere Plaza, considering the Historic Woolworth/McCrory's was demolished? Come on, we need to stop creating obstacles that stand in the way of progress. Orlando is a young metropolitan city that needs to find an identity. Let's lose for God's sake the Mickey Mouse label and turn this place into an Urban delight we can all be proud of.