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Parramore's Future: Highrise Development or No?


DelGreco

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Are you talking about high-rise projects? That proved to be the wrong solution in the '60s and '70s. High concentrations of poverty create their own set of social ills that are hard to combat. Didn't Chicago demolish all of their high-rise projects and replace them with mixed-income housing? In parts of Manhattan, public housing dominates some neighborhoods like Central Harlem so much that "gentrification" will never take hold even when condos are selling for more than $1M two blocks over.

I personally won't be happy with the government warehousing the poor. I'd much rather the government invest in the schools of Parramore and give the children a realistic chance to dream of being something more than football/basketball players and drug dealers. The aesthetic of the built environment of the neighborhood does matter a lot, but high-rises that look good from the East-West or I-4 as we drive by aren't the answer.

I think that the original public housing projects constructed in the 1960's were definitely a mistake in that the model they followed was definitely "warehousing for the poor." However, I think that government sponsored housing in general can work if it is subisdized to allow for lower/middle income housing. The most poignant example that comes to mind is Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper Village in Manhattan. Designed to accomodate the families returning from WWII and was well maintained, recently selling for a record $5.4 billion dollars. If the City of Orlando/Orange County were able to create a project on this scale, screen tenants thoroughly and provide the maintenance and amenities required to keep it from becoming a slum large scale public housing can work.

As a side bar, I have always thought that the Sentinel would be well served to tell the story of Downtown Orlando's renaissance by following Central Boulevard. Beginning on its westside, following through Parramore with its industrial land uses, lack of trees and decent store fronts to the new Courthouse under I-4, through the Central Business district and over to Thorntown Park ending at Summerlin. In my opinion, no other street provides the raw juxtaposition of who has gained and lost in this wave of urban investment. The problems of Parramore surely were not merely an accident rather they were the result of a systematic efforts on the parts of city leaders over the decades to place the least desirable land-uses and services "On the other side of the tracks."

As it has been noted, Cabrini Green in Chicago has been demolished to allow for more exclusive (read:expensive) land uses because of its location. The same dynamics can now be observed in Parramore and it will take some serious planning and hard choices to reassign the business and government uses that have been drags on its localized economy. Then and only then will the residents of Parramore, be they old residents or new truly be able to benefit from the revitailziation efforts centered in Downtown Orlando.

Peter Cooper Village/Stuyvesant Town Link

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in short, u mean "chased" the residents there out and replace them with new people...that sounds bad, but it is happening in every city revitalization.

I never used the the word "chased." I think that the city should faciliate the creation of higher and better land uses that the current government services buildings and warehouses. Providing the local residents with the knowledge necessary to own their own homes and start their own businesses. These residents are at the bottom of the economic ladder due to a lack of information. The city should make it a priority to prepare them for the inevitable changes.

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Are you talking about high-rise projects? That proved to be the wrong solution in the '60s and '70s. High concentrations of poverty create their own set of social ills that are hard to combat. Didn't Chicago demolish all of their high-rise projects and replace them with mixed-income housing? In parts of Manhattan, public housing dominates some neighborhoods like Central Harlem so much that "gentrification" will never take hold even when condos are selling for more than $1M two blocks over.

I personally won't be happy with the government warehousing the poor. I'd much rather the government invest in the schools of Parramore and give the children a realistic chance to dream of being something more than football/basketball players and drug dealers. The aesthetic of the built environment of the neighborhood does matter a lot, but high-rises that look good from the East-West or I-4 as we drive by aren't the answer.

Good point

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I live in Parramore at Cityview Apts i live in a 1046 sq ft 2/2 apt. I currently pay 1225$ a month to live there. Half the people living there pay 640$ for the same thing i have exactly they even have 8th floor apts i have 2nd floor. How fair is that? These people for the most part trash the place, garbage laying everywhere, thanks to the staff if it gets cleaned up quickly, beer bottles hurled off the balconies on the couryard condom wrappers laying around in the stairwells. Most of the people in my opinion do not deserve to live here, they dont respect the property yet the government via you and i are paying for them. On top of that i have to move out in July b/c i make to much money to live there, and if i want to live downtown, i dont really make enough to buy something b/c prices are to high to buy. I say turn these places into condos, if developers want to buy these peoples land and they people sell it so be it, let them build condo towers and tear down the old structures that riddle Parramore. The people that live there think developers are taking there land; there not the people are selling the land to them, i would love to see Parramore become the new South Eola or Thorton park.

Edited by ORLANDOJBBOY
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Yeah but what would they do? They have a bond on this place to make it half low income and half i guess medium to low income for 25 years apparently. Im just hoping that it becomes unprofitable for the owner to keep fixing up and running the place and it has to be sold to developers. The amount of eviction notices on the doors of this place is unreal. Its got to cost a fortune to keep going in these units and fixing them up just so another tenant can come in and trash it. It really sucks but i guess its life. Im just fortunate to have somewhat quiet decent neighbors next to me so... i really do love the place and it has so much more potential if only people would respect the property.

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Maybe they can do a story on it and exposed that some people in Parramorre does not deserve what they are given.

You have a good point and i should do more investigating. I think im going to break out the tools and do some. I got a camera a tape recorder and ill go mix and mingle with the residents to find out more information, sounds like i got some work on my hands. :thumbsup:

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You have a good point and i should do more investigating. I think im going to break out the tools and do some. I got a camera a tape recorder and ill go mix and mingle with the residents to find out more information, sounds like i got some work on my hands. :thumbsup:

This is the major problem with Parramore. The people do not own and thus do not respect property....it is truly amazing! I need it was happening in the slums but I had no idea the same was going on in CityView. Let the Mayor know! That's why difficult decisions need to be made regarding these type of people living in slums. Filter the decent folks that truly need a helping hand and give the rest an opportunity for rehabilitation and education...and then jobs! Lack of Education is the root of all evil....

I think CityView is a prime property in a prime location....especially with the new Events Center going up next door. You have every right to live there and you have every right to bring the wrongs you mentioned about the other tenants to public attention. Call in Channel6 and give visibility to the problem so it can be fixed before this property totally deteriorates. People like you can make a difference! :thumbsup:

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Hey everyone.. sorry for the sorta tangential post but I am wondering about something and havn't gotten much response from the investigating I've been doing so far.

I own a house not quite in Parramore (off Rio Grande and Grand) and not quite in Holden Heights that I've just finished restoring.. it looks great etc etc... well as you may know the county is finally putting sewer/drainage lines and some streetscape improvements in the neighborhood (how the city/county let the area not have these basic services until 2006 is, frankly mind boggling but a rant that makes me redfaced and shaky if I get too much into it.)

My question is... how are they planning on hooking up the new sewers to the houses that are already there, how do they plan to get rid of the septic systems that are in everyone's homes now. I would imagine that left to have to pay for it themselves about 0% or less of the residents that are already there would be able to afford hooking into the system, filling their old tanks or removing them etc.

Anyone know how they did this with earlier phases in Holden Heights? I've written to my county commisioner and called the number on the signs there and haven't gotten any type of response yet....

Thanks in advance..

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Hey everyone.. sorry for the sorta tangential post but I am wondering about something and havn't gotten much response from the investigating I've been doing so far.

I own a house not quite in Parramore (off Rio Grande and Grand) and not quite in Holden Heights that I've just finished restoring.. it looks great etc etc... well as you may know the county is finally putting sewer/drainage lines and some streetscape improvements in the neighborhood (how the city/county let the area not have these basic services until 2006 is, frankly mind boggling but a rant that makes me redfaced and shaky if I get too much into it.)

My question is... how are they planning on hooking up the new sewers to the houses that are already there, how do they plan to get rid of the septic systems that are in everyone's homes now. I would imagine that left to have to pay for it themselves about 0% or less of the residents that are already there would be able to afford hooking into the system, filling their old tanks or removing them etc.

Anyone know how they did this with earlier phases in Holden Heights? I've written to my county commisioner and called the number on the signs there and haven't gotten any type of response yet....

Thanks in advance..

I don't know how things have worked there, but i do know when things like this happen in other places they dont make you connect to the system right away, what happens is if you have a problem with your septic tank you then have to connect to the system, b/c they refuse to issue a permit for a new septic system or any type of work to be done on them usually. They then require you to connect and i believe you have to pay the cost of connecting which i have heard can be upwards of 10K which seems high, not sure what is included in this whether removal of septic and new pipes ect. are included.

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I don't know how things have worked there, but i do know when things like this happen in other places they dont make you connect to the system right away, what happens is if you have a problem with your septic tank you then have to connect to the system, b/c they refuse to issue a permit for a new septic system or any type of work to be done on them usually. They then require you to connect and i believe you have to pay the cost of connecting which i have heard can be upwards of 10K which seems high, not sure what is included in this whether removal of septic and new pipes ect. are included.

Yeah those numbers sound about right but if the county actually does it that way it's going to be about as useful and relevant to most residents as opening up a Tiffany & CO on the corner of OBT and Gore would be.

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I don't know how things have worked there, but i do know when things like this happen in other places they dont make you connect to the system right away, what happens is if you have a problem with your septic tank you then have to connect to the system, b/c they refuse to issue a permit for a new septic system or any type of work to be done on them usually. They then require you to connect and i believe you have to pay the cost of connecting which i have heard can be upwards of 10K which seems high, not sure what is included in this whether removal of septic and new pipes ect. are included.

State law generally requires that you connect any new construction or major renovation to sewer and potable water if it's within a reasonable distance (about 1000 feet?), therefore the fact you can't get a permit for a septic system once city lines are installed.

As for what they do with the old system, I think generally they can just leave them there. It's probably more trouble than it's worth to remove, except for possibly the tank itself. But then again once you rip out the tank (if you can reach it) then removing the lines that actually release the effluent into the ground probably aren't much more work.

GENERALLY, I think the city would probably hook it up for you, or at least bring it right to your prop. line. It's the impact fees that you would pay, i.e. the calculated cost of extending the pipes, expanding the treatment plant one day, and so on. What you would be looking for is the impact fee due for one home, which they usually refer to as an ERU, or equivalent residential unit. I would call growth management or...if you're in the city, hold on......

........

Jesus these people are in no hurry to answer the phone...

I finally found it here

Looks like $2,537 for sewer. OUC handles water, but if I had to guess I'd say it's about 1/2 to 2/3 of the sewer fee.

Keep in mind these fees will increase every year. Although probably not dramatically, since there are no major projects that public works needs to complete right now. Unlike, for instance, school and road fees.

Transportation credits, and even water and sewer credits, are actually a commodity and can be held and sold later. I believe Lockheed Martin still owns a ton of road credits out in E. Orange County.

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State law generally requires that you connect any new construction or major renovation to sewer and potable water if it's within a reasonable distance (about 1000 feet?), therefore the fact you can't get a permit for a septic system once city lines are installed.

As for what they do with the old system, I think generally they can just leave them there. It's probably more trouble than it's worth to remove, except for possibly the tank itself. But then again once you rip out the tank (if you can reach it) then removing the lines that actually release the effluent into the ground probably aren't much more work.

GENERALLY, I think the city would probably hook it up for you, or at least bring it right to your prop. line. It's the impact fees that you would pay, i.e. the calculated cost of extending the pipes, expanding the treatment plant one day, and so on. What you would be looking for is the impact fee due for one home, which they usually refer to as an ERU, or equivalent residential unit. I would call growth management or...if you're in the city, hold on......

........

Jesus these people are in no hurry to answer the phone...

I finally found it here

Looks like $2,537 for sewer. OUC handles water, but if I had to guess I'd say it's about 1/2 to 2/3 of the sewer fee.

Keep in mind these fees will increase every year. Although probably not dramatically, since there are no major projects that public works needs to complete right now. Unlike, for instance, school and road fees.

Transportation credits, and even water and sewer credits, are actually a commodity and can be held and sold later. I believe Lockheed Martin still owns a ton of road credits out in E. Orange County.

I'm technically not in the city..but I imagine the cost is going to be the same or for all intents the same. And I have really no qualms about doing whatever I need to do to get everything hooked up. I can do the line from the tank on my own and pay whatever tap fee there is. What I'm more curious about is what's going to happen to the other neighbors who either can either barely own and have no way to do such a major project or are renting from people who quite clearly couldn't care less about the property at this point. I do appreciate all the help so far though..it at least confirms what I've found so far.

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I'm technically not in the city..but I imagine the cost is going to be the same or for all intents the same. And I have really no qualms about doing whatever I need to do to get everything hooked up. I can do the line from the tank on my own and pay whatever tap fee there is. What I'm more curious about is what's going to happen to the other neighbors who either can either barely own and have no way to do such a major project or are renting from people who quite clearly couldn't care less about the property at this point. I do appreciate all the help so far though..it at least confirms what I've found so far.

Well in a way you're getting a bargain, because they make the tap and at least bring the lines to your PL. God forbid you have to go out into the street or something and make the connection to an existing line/MH. You will pay the impact fees tho. But you're right the county fees will be similar-maybe a little less. It sounds like you know what you're doing and if they won't connect for you, you can meet them at the point they stop. Just get the elevations right! As we say in the engineering field-sh!t don't flow uphill.

I dunno-maybe they have some grant or something for low income homeowners? I would assume so-otherwise like you said there will not be many connections. And just think, after that you get to pay the sewer and water bills!

As for your drain field, if you do remove it yourself wait a month or so. And the tank should be removed (and pumped out first) by a professional....if you remove it at all.

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I thought the property value in Parramore would have benn inflated now after the announcement of the new event centre & creative village.

If I have the money I would buy property around Parliament house

Of course it has....and the City helped with providing realtors with comparables going as high as $120 per sqft. (remember the little house on a 5000 sqft lot for $600K?) Yeup, the City bought that via a holding company. But during the last 5yrs they assembled many parcels for $5K-$30K each....when money ran out, it appears they decided to make this the Special Tax District that will fund the new venues. The new venues will bring in private investment that will cause assessed values to grow exponentially. In essence, it looks like Dyer is running the City as a private business, and that means making fiscally responsible decisions. They seem to be doing just that.

However, I think you can still find many investment opportunities in Parramore at the $20-$40 sq ft range. I think rapid development (0-5yrs out) will occur between Division Ave and Westmoreland Ave.

West of Westmoreland is probably 10+ yrs away. As far as around Parliament house, I would consider that as an exception and a "specialized" market which appeals to 10%(?) of our population? Parliament area doesn't have general investor appeal...too far from the pedestrian action of CBD.

I think I will wait a bit before I trade in my east dowtown vacation home for a home/condo on the westside.....I hope they start building some soon. Didn't they say the Otey/Federal property next to the Centroplex will have $500K+ homes? Should be interesting...

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Of course it has....and the City helped with providing realtors with comparables going as high as $120 per sqft. (remember the little house on a 5000 sqft lot for $600K?) Yeup, the City bought that via a holding company. But during the last 5yrs they assembled many parcels for $5K-$30K each....when money ran out, it appears they decided to make this the Special Tax District that will fund the new venues. The new venues will bring in private investment that will cause assessed values to grow exponentially. In essence, it looks like Dyer is running the City as a private business, and that means making fiscally responsible decisions. They seem to be doing just that.

However, I think you can still find many investment opportunities in Parramore at the $20-$40 sq ft range. I think rapid development (0-5yrs out) will occur between Division Ave and Westmoreland Ave.

West of Westmoreland is probably 10+ yrs away. As far as around Parliament house, I would consider that as an exception and a "specialized" market which appeals to 10%(?) of our population? Parliament area doesn't have general investor appeal...too far from the pedestrian action of CBD.

I think I will wait a bit before I trade in my east dowtown vacation home for a home/condo on the westside.....I hope they start building some soon. Didn't they say the Otey/Federal property next to the Centroplex will have $500K+ homes? Should be interesting.

I feel like an idiot saying this, but I believe that Central Boulevard is poised to be a major corridor in the future. It already has the hard urban dynamics that make an area feel like a "Big City" it really needs businesses with street front retail that go up 6-8 stories at least. As far as the area around Parliament,

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  • 4 months later...

Dyer:$70M from Magic Johnson fund coming to Parramore

Suprise Suprise...Parramore is getting some respect!?! :whistling:

I hope that BBIF mixed use proposal on Heritage Park gets some of this money. That whole area around Heritage Park should be very nice in a couple years. Go Buddy...Go Magic!

The real estate boom hasn't gone away in Orlando....Madonna che fortunati sono questi disgraziati! :shades:

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  • 3 weeks later...

Top 10 Hottest Job Markets for Young Adults

The fact Orlando is the only Florida city on the top 10 destination list for Young Adults is a good sign for the future of Dowtown Orlando....especially the emerging High Tech corridor on the west side of I-4. Combine that with the fastest growing university (UCF) in the country, a top 5 national Research Park next door, and a potential BioMedical hub in Lake Nona area....WOW! Keep up the good work Orlando!

Youth represents sustained growth....Go Magic! Go Buddy!

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