Demolition Spree

[andrew.w]

So you want to take a building like MCS and landscape the property, make the building safe enough for people to enter, and have some of the worlds top architects build modern structures for your museum?

Are the modern stuctures that Jin Kim was planning for the "architectural museum" to be built as part of the museum. I was under the impression that these would be actual working, mixed use buildings with residential, office, etc. that would surround the cental ruin museum.

But maybe I'm misinterpreting the idea.

[RustTown]

It seems like he's the only one that knows what he means. lol

Whatever. The idea is not growing on me, anymore. I'd rather the buildings sit and rot, than be glorified for their abandonment. And I completely understand why the citizens have never been keen to the idea of turning their city into some kind of morbid amusement park, where people gawk at less than 100-year-old ruins. It's a sick, Disney-esque idea, and mocks REAL ruins such as the Parthenon and the Coliseum.

[Jin Kim]

I dont mean to offend but this whole thing is just dumb.

No offense taken.

So you want to take a building like MCS and landscape the property, make the building safe enough for people to enter, and have some of the worlds top architects build modern structures for your museum?

No. First off, it wouldn't work if it were just one building.

Also, as I noted earlier, buildings in good enough shape would be restored into something useful, like a museum, etc.

I'm not suggesting that structures that could be easily restored be knocked down so that new buildings could be built in its place.

It'd be the true ruins, those that basically are too far gone that would be selectively preserved. While it may not be feasable (economically or otherwise) to restore those structures, I believe that many still hold some value. If for nothing else for history sake.

If they aren't preserved, what would happen to them? Probably knocked down and put in a landfield somewhere. Precisely b/c they're so far gone that they are safety hazzard, knocking them down is something that people would actually want.

It'd be different if there were viable projects that would replace them. But if not, why not do something useful with them?

First of all you would be building a museum in which knowone would want to attend. People already understand that Detroit has lots of abandoned properties and buildings, why are they gonna pay a fee to get into a museum about it. All they have to do is watch the news around here or attend a Sacramento basketball game.

I'll conceed that not everyone would want to attend such museum. But I do think there are plenty of audience for such thing.

The actual meseum itself (as in typical meseum in a building) would probably need to charge a fee. But the rest of the preserve be just a public park.

I happen to think that some of these ruins actually have some sculptural quality to them. So, to me it'd be like having a large a park full of sculptures. But I'll conceed that people's taste vary.

This idea goes against everything people are trying to do downtown by finding new USEFUL uses for old buildings that have been forgotten. Second, the money your willing to spend on all of this could actually be used to fix up the actual building for the community. If you were to do something at MCS and were capable of building a large museum with a big or several big name architects, landscape the large property, and make the building safe enough for people to enter, you could just as easily rehab the building and make it useful.

Why isn't historic architecture park that would serve to educate the masses and advance the fields of architecutre, urban development, sustainable development etc. not a useful thing?

These structures (again, I'm talking about those that are too far gone to be restored) would truely be forgotten if they were just landfield, indeed.

Make the city proud of the fact that one of their large abandoned buildings has been fixed and now being used.

I hope and do think that the city would be proud to be the only city where architecture/urban development and their history is important enough to have institutions dedicated to them.

If you do win 200 million at some point, which i plan on doing mind you, i hope you decide to invest in the city but only if it is something that is useful.

I don't know if it's me not being able to communicate clearly enough or if we just have a difference in opinion, but I think something like what I'm proposing is useful.

Are the modern stuctures that Jin Kim was planning for the "architectural museum" to be built as part of the museum. I was under the impression that these would be actual working, mixed use buildings with residential, office, etc. that would surround the cental ruin museum.

But maybe I'm misinterpreting the idea.

No you're not. There's no reason why not.

It seems like he's the only one that knows what he means. lol

Conversations I've had with other people in the past have gone the same way. So you might just be right.

I'd rather the buildings sit and rot, than be glorified for their abandonment.

I'd rather they be redeveloped and I don't think what I'm suggestiing is glorifying their abandonment.

Do you think that having slavery artifacts in the African American museum glorifies slavery?

And I completely understand why the citizens have never been keen to the idea of turning their city into some kind of morbid amusement park, where people gawk at less than 100-year-old ruins. It's a sick, Disney-esque idea, and mocks REAL ruins such as the Parthenon and the Coliseum.

I believe you're misinterpreting my idea if you think what I'm suggesting would be in any way resemble the Disney Land or any other themed amusement park.

Think closer to the Central Park in New York, or the Millennium Park in Chicago.

[MrCoffee]

The thought of stabilizing ruins was meant for something similar to what Minneapolis has with their Mill Ruins Park. They took the General Mills A Mill, which closed in 1965 and burned down in 1991, and stabilized what was left standing. Then, they cleaned and stabilized the whole thing, and put some portions of it back in service, namely the freight elevator which now serves as a functional part of the museum. They preserved whatever equipment that could be made functional, and restored it to working condition.

So, what were the results? A flour milling museum and educational baking lab that gets enough business to where reservations are often necessary. Of course, that's only half of it. The walls that weren't destroyed in the original fire are still standing, yet the area is landscaped nicely. It's just something that a visitor would have to see in order to believe. I didn't think much at first, but when I made my visit there I was totally impressed. What was once the largest milling complex in the nation was left abandoned. Now, it's a park and museum accessible via a light rail system which stops at a former railroad depot and goes to the Warehouse District, along Hiawatha Blvd to the airport and the Mall of America. What I saw there was mind boggling, in my opinion.

At one time, they were going to make some of the old mills into affordable housing in the milling district. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Instead, it was turned into market rate housing and businesses where there isn't a unit that exists that can be purchased for less than a half million dollars. That, friends, is along the Mississippi River close to St. Anthony Falls. The plan turned out being so successful, that people in Minneapolis want to clear out all the rest of the industry along the Mississippi and turn it into residential areas and public parks, as well as retail establishments and bistros.

http://www.byways.org/browse/byways/2243/places/49838/

http://www.monkeyouttanowhere.com/twinciti...ruins_park.html

http://www.millcitymuseum.org/

Those are but a few small tidbits. Give it a look-see. Think "outside the box". Oh, and Fisher 21 is a much fresher, newer ruin than the General Mills A Mill (by almost a quarter century, in fact!). The Packard Plant, well, it's a bit older than the A Mill, but I'm sure it can be worked on too. We do have some treasures in this metro area that are yet to be discovered.

MrCoffee

[MrCoffee]

Exactly, I think once people think through what it really would entail, it sounds rather cool.

Well, lets see if I can do it a bit better.

I think most of us on here and elsewhere like this forum are clearly interested in architecture, particularly historic architecture. I think we're also interested in urban planning, etc.

This park, architectural preserve, or whatever it ends up being called would be a large scale museum. Museum of buildings, architectural features, etc. Perhaps even a new or restored building could be dedicated to history of architecture, urban planning, urban living, etc. Maybe even a teaching/research institute dedicated to advancing of those fields.

Think how cool it'd be if real physical architectural features from the Hudsons, Stadler Hotel, old mansions from Brush Park and other historic parts of the city, etc. were available for us to view/study/etc. in a museum. That'd be pretty damn cool! I could spend an entire day in something like that.

But instead of demolishing everything to lay lawn around the museum or the institute, we'd leave as much of the "ruins" in whole or part standing - depending on their architectural significance or how much of them could be safely saved (not restored). Maybe we'd even aquire interesting ruins from other parts of the world that are often basically put into landfields.

So instead of a small pieces of it in white box rooms of a museum, we'd have full sections of these ruins in an outdoor park environment Imagine being able to walk right up to see and touch the entire top section of the Stadler Hotel? Or maybe even few floors of it? That'd be soooooo much more interesting!

Intermingle them with interesting modern structures designed by some of the top architects in the world? Imagine acres of these things. Man, that'd be awsome!

So you see, it's not about demolishing the ruins. It's about preserving them from razing/landfielding that goes on in the name of progress and redevelopment. Because even though they were and still would be ruins, such unique park/preserve would attract a lot attention. Not only from those of us who are keen on architecture and urban planning (I can see architecture/urban planning colleges making field trips to such park), but I think even from regular folks who seem to flock to anything that's out of this world and daring.

It'd be a park dotted with the ruins of Detroit, or even the world, and it'd be oh so awsome!

Detroit is (unfortunately) the unique city where such thing would be even possible.

Yes, of course. Architecture could very well be the theme of one museum. However, has there ever been a museum dedicated to the manufacturing industry? A textile museum where someone can actually see and learn how the fabric to car seats were woven, dyed, and formed, for example? How about a place where people learn how parts of dashboard assemblies were made historically? Where details on how the instrument panel is silk screened so a flat piece of plexiglas actually comes out as a speedometer? How about learning how engines were cast, machined, and then assembled? How engines work? How transmissions funciton? How transmissions are made? How sheet metal is stamped into parts, and those parts are then welded into sections to form a whole body? How those parts are then painted by robots and ran through ovens in processes that may take multiple complex steps? Which then meets the rest of the assembly and is assembled on a chassis and into a complete vehicle?

The point here, is that Detroit has some assets that can be used for educational purposes. Manufacturing is a very fascinating field, there is a lot to learn about how our consumer goods are made. A surprising portion of the public has a real interest in learning that sort of stuff. Why not give the public something they can actually touch, feel, identify with? It could take some of the mystery of the manufacturing field and lay it out for all to see, to be awstruck by. Maybe it would inspire youngsters to study manufacturing technology, who knows. I do know that Minneapolis has something similar to this. Minnesota has perhaps the most highly educated population in the nation, and the state is a real draw to businesses. I never thought about the flour milling process until I visited the Mill City Museum and learned just exactly how complex and drawn out it is!

Don't get me wrong, folks. If the people of Detroit feel that it would be best to tear down the historic manufacturing plants and Detroit's past, that's fine. Getting rid of the past in some cases can be a good thing. Maybe the ruins can be turned into green fields to be preserved for later use, as has been demonstrated by some of the parking lots in the heart of the city. Maybe Fisher 21 can be raised, and the acrage could be set aside for some type of later use just like the Uniroyal site.

If Detroit really wants to erase its past, then it would have to eliminate all details of its history. A start would be taking down the huge Uniroyal tire that sits along I-94, since tires are no longer manufactured in South Eastern Michigan. All historical markers will need to come down, and all former manufacturing plants would need to be leveled, and the rubble carried off to processors where it can be crushed and used for pavement or concrete for other structures. Any and all records that pertain to industrial production would need to be destroyed, and copyrighted so that no images may be copied or used by anybody in the general public. Perhaps then, Detroit can concentrate on its future, or "the next big thing", whatever that may be. Any reference to a manufacturing history will be erased, and maybe the city can concentrate on the service industry and drawing software firms into its downtown area, for example. Or, maybe Detroit can be a great hub for pharmacuticals, medical records processing, finance, banking, real estate, condo flipping, or whatever. What ever manufacturing is left can be tucked away and hidden from visitors, never to be discussed or talked about. It would be sad, but I would accept Detroit for whatever it wants to be. Afterall, I am still a Michigan native.

MrCoffee

[Jin Kim]

Manufacturing history museum complex could also be pretty cool I think. We also have enough "ruins" to have both.

[MrCoffee]

I think a manufacturing museum can be a real jewel for the City of Detroit. It's too late for Flint, as all of its old factories have already been raised, with no clear plan for the future use of the sites. But Detroit still has most of the Packard Plant, Fisher 21, and the original Ford Model T plant. Well, I forgot to add Continental Aluminum to the collection.

Has anybody ever wondered how aluminum is made? How about different grades of aluminum and its uses? How is aluminum cast and machined to become an engine block or part of the wing assembly of a Boeing 737?

The amount of learning in the manufacturing and fabrication field is infinite. It is an industry that always reinvents its self. Manufacturing is what built this nation, and not enough of the public is interested. We need something to make the public realize the significance of manufacturing, how important it is to our economy. With enough interest, the United States can once again become a world leader in the production of consumer goods.

MrCoffee

[Ramcharger]

As Delphi Chief Executive Robert S. "Steve" Miller has stated

[MrCoffee]

I most definitely understand that, Ramcharger. A part of the reasoning behind a manufacturing museum is to get the public to realize what goes into making the things they use every day. If they can understand the significance of what we are giving up, perhaps they may be encouraged to put out a stronger voice to our politicians regarding the theft these multinational companies are committing against our infrastructure. So yes, a part of it is educational. The other part is mobilization, to get the public to wake up and take action! Manufacturing plants are an endangered species, and need to be put on that list. It should be just as much a crime to close and tear down a factory as it is to shoot a bald eagle (maybe that's a bit over the top, but it's just an indication of what I feel).

MrCoffee

[WBG4]

Didn't see any mention of this anywhere but it should be mentioned that there are now new doors in the front of the UA supposedly to allow demo contractors to do walkthroughs

http://www.detroitfunk.com/images/DEC05/DSC_9234.jpg

Thanks DetroitFunk for posting this

[darwinism]

Can't be expecting too much positive news concerning old buildings if there are such good business sense to take them down according to the people in city positions, as exhibited in the following rhetoric battle through DetroitYes:

http://127.0.0.1/forum/messages/5/61254.html?1134114847

Sad for us who love and care about architectural history, and about effort towards preservation of structures.

[detroitfan]

The reality is for city and developers it's cold-hearted business it all about the numbers. The city didn't do the Book-Cadillac out of the goodness of it heart it made financial sense.

As for UA Allan mentioned this earlier in the thread

From what I've heard, the Ilitches are actually considering real non-parking lot proposals for the M-L site. Same goes for some of their buildings.

Have you heard anything about the UA ?

[Allan]

The new doors on the UA are not to allow demo contractors to walk through...there is no reason for them to walk through. The demolition contractors have been through; contracts have been drawn up. The permits are pulled, and the only thing left to do is sign the papers.

However, all hope is not lost. Ilitch Holdings has a new president, Atanas Ilitch, and he is in the process of reviewing all their properties to see what kind of potential they have. They've been taking various contractors through to get cost estimates to learn how much it would cost to repair all the buildings. They went through the UA for the first time last Friday. They got in ok, but they had to leave the door hanging wide open while they were in there. They yelled at Zissou & me...like we'd think about going into an abandoned skyscraper with a wide open door. The new door makes it easier for them to get in and out without having to mess with the possibility of people wandering in off the street.

[Allan]

The UA marquee came down this morning.

[detroitfan]

It nice to finally have an Ilitch take these building seriously. While the theatre may be beyond repair the building has such great potential has office/residential space

[andrew.w]

It nice to finally have an Ilitch take these building seriously. While the theatre may be beyond repair the building has such great potential has office/residential space

Of course, it depends what your definition of "beyond repair" is. I think it probably could be restored it just depends of how many millions he would be willing to spend to do it, and what use restoring it would have for the city.

While on this subject, Detroit certainly doesn't need more theaters. But if the money needed to restore the theater was no object, I think it would be cool to flaten the floor and set the space up as a club or a restraunt with the stage for various events. I don't know what would be done with the balcony.

[RustTown]

Who says that this is a renovation going on? If I've learned nothing else from the Detroit development community, it is that this is more likely a simple clean-up in time for the SuperBowl, or maybe even prep work for a future demolition.

[Allan]

I don't think anyone's said anything about this being a renovation. At this point the Ilitches have no concrete plans in place for the UA or the other two buildings they've had contractors go through in recent weeks.

[andrew.w]

I don't think anyone's said anything about this being a renovation. At this point the Ilitches have no concrete plans in place for the UA or the other two buildings they've had contractors go through in recent weeks.

What are the other two buildings? Other than the fine arts and some buildings that are now "extinct" I don't know exectly what other vacant buildings they own. I'm guessing some of the buildings behind the Fox.

[Allan]

The only buildings they own are the Detroit Building, Fine Arts Building/Adams Theater, Hotel Vermont, & the United Artists.

The only building they are definitely not interested in redeveloping is Hotel Vermont, since that is where the new hockey arena is going.

[andrew.w]

Hotel Vermont?

Why can't I find any information on this anywhere? All that I know is that it was on Detroit's list of buildings to be demolished, renovated, etc. It wasn't even on forgottenmichigan.

[Allan]

It's a little 4 story wood-framed building on Columbia between Cass & Park. Hasn't been used in years. It was originally known as Hotel Tremont.

[jsmyers]

While on this subject, Detroit certainly doesn't need more theaters.

I would challenge that asertion. There may be good reasons to make it, but there are other good reasons to come to other conclusions:

1. The Fox is one of the most profitable Theatres anywhere.

2. There is a shortage of "normal" movie theatres downtown.

3. Cinema attentance might be shifting from Megaplexes that just show the movie to places that have a richer experience, ala the Redford Theatre.

4. Olympia doesn't have a smaller space they can use for more roudy shows. (The fox is too nice, and Cobo/JLA are too big. Now the State and the Majestic have that market wrapped up, but it could probably be bigger.)

5. The downtown (and nearby) theatres mostly fit one of two business models - super nice sit down (Fox, Opera, Ochestra Hall, Fisher) or the bare bones flexible (State and Majestic). There is an opportunity to provide something out of the box. Maybe a theatre that is nice, but everybody sits at a table with food and drinks. Maybe a theatre where the show is sombody cooking your food. Anything is possilbe.

6. Nice theatres are something that I think having more of increases demand. Over time, having more theatres will allow the DVCB to market Detroit to more leasure tourists, people that in the past have gone to Chicago or Toronto.

7. The addition of casino hotels and the BC will enable the addition of a lot more visitors to the CBD.

If I where the Illitches, I would stablize and do a basic renovation to the theatre, use it in the meantime for other shows, compete with altered state, or show films, renovate the upstairs into flexible live and work space, and then over time develop a concept to use surrounding vacant land in conjuction with the UA for a truly special and unique destination.

The same goes for the National, although the scale (and therefore the possibilities) is different.

[andrew.w]

5. The downtown (and nearby) theatres mostly fit one of two business models - super nice sit down (Fox, Opera, Ochestra Hall, Fisher) or the bare bones flexible (State and Majestic). There is an opportunity to provide something out of the box. Maybe a theatre that is nice, but everybody sits at a table with food and drinks. Maybe a theatre where the show is sombody cooking your food. Anything is possilbe.

This is kind of what I was thinking:

"I think it would be cool to flaten the floor and set the space up as a club or a restraunt with the stage for various events. I don't know what would be done with the balcony."

This way you would still have the historic walls, ceiling, and stage of the theater but with more flexibility to use it for things other than movies and plays.

[detroitfan]

2. There is a shortage of "normal" movie theatres downtown.

3. Cinema attentance might be shifting from Megaplexes that just show the movie to places that have a richer experience, ala the Redford Theatre

I think are these are the most realistic I couldn't see it working with stage shows alone, but a combo of stage and first run movies would work. Especially with more people living in the downotwn, midtown area there's an entirely untapped market

As usual the real issue is cost The Opera House which was in similar a shape cost about $30 million and the Kales, more or less the same size as the office tower, cost about 20 million. I'd love to see a complete and total renovation of the UA, but I have my doubts that they'll do the tower let alone take on the risk doing the theatre