Crabtree Valley Mall

[DigitalSky]

what were the malls original anchors and were were they located? I know only of H-Belk

[StevenRocks]

Hudson Belk, Sears and Thalhimers are the original anchor stores. There were also two junior anchors: Miller & Rhoads and G.C. Murphy.

Hudson Belk's still in its original space. That store is 251,000 square feet on three levels. The third level was opened somewhere around 1980.

Sears' original space was carved up into small shop space in 1994-95. That store was located adjacent to the current store, on axis with Hudson Belk and was 160,000 square feet on two levels.

Thalhimers was located approximately where Lord & Taylor is now. The lease line was not set back nearly as much as L&T's is. That store was 98,000 square feet on two levels and was considered Thalhimers' largest store in North Carolina until the SouthPark store opened in 1988.

Miller & Rhoads was near Hudson Belk, approximately where the Express/Bath & Body Works cluster is now. That store was 35,000 square feet on two levels. It was M&R's only successful store in North Carolina and didn't go out of business until late 1989.

G.C. Murphy was around 30,000 square feet. It's in the area that cahmps Sports occupies now. It survived until 1994. The first time I visted CVM as an adult in 1994, they had just closed, but a directory I have from then still lists them as a tenant.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Crabtree Valley Mall is still the most popular mall in Eastern North Carolina by far despite the new malls which have opened recently "Triangle Towne Center" and "Southpointe" People come from all over to shop there.

But Lord & Taylor a somewhat upscale retailer will be leaving there anchor spot at Crabtree in late '06 I believe do to sales volume. Crabtree is looking for a upscale retailer to fill that spot. With Charlotte getting a Neiman Marcus online this year. I think Crabtree should try to lure Neiman Marcus as well since we have a Nordstrom and Saks already in the area. And if not Neiman Marcus maybe a Parisian they're all over the place in Georgia and the deep south North Carolina has yet to have one of them.

Any thoughts?

[StevenRocks]

Crabtree is looking for a upscale retailer...With Charlotte getting a Neiman Marcus online this year.  I think Crabtree should try to lure Neiman Marcus as well since we have a Nordstrom and Saks already in the area.  And if not Neiman Marcus maybe a Parisian they're all over the place in Georgia and the deep south North Carolina has yet to have one of them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would love to see Neiman Marcus at Crabtree in place of Lord & Taylor. It would certainly up the profile of an already upscale mall. I don't know if there's been an interest on N-M's part to come there, though.

Parisian is nice as well. They would be a slightly more realistic choice, because thay have a merchandise mix similar to Lord & Taylor. I don't know if they're actively looking either.

Even though Nordstrom's already in Durham, I wouldn't mind seeing one of those at Crabtree too. There's plenty of shoppers that don't and won't venture to Southpoint that I think it could work. They actually considered locating there and couldn't work out a deal with the mall's owners.

[DigitalSky]

thanks for the info.

I could see Neiman's coming to Crabtree - possibly if thier SouthPark store does really well and they decide on expanding on to Raleigh.

One other question though - when the Mall opened, what was in the place of where Hecht's is today.

Thanks

[orulz]

I could see Neiman's coming to Crabtree - possibly if thier SouthPark store does really well and they decide on expanding on to Raleigh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally, I'd rather see a store like that open up downtown, but... not likely any time soon, I know. But if they could only ever open one store in the region, then I'd rather see them hold off for 10, even 15 years while downtown gets "ready," rather than make yet another commitment that perpetuates the suburbs' role as "top dog" in the retail arena.

This is, after all "urbanplanet," not "suburbanplanet". Heh.

[Raleighmark]

Originally the Sear's that is offset from the central axis of the mall anchored the end of the mall, but not where the Hecht's is. Hecht's was built beyond the original Sear's and the Sear's space was divided into shops, in effect lengthening the mall with a new Sear's being built to the side.

[StevenRocks]

One other question though - when the Mall opened, what was in the place of where Hecht's is today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Glad you asked, cantnot.

Hecht's building was built by The May Department Stores Co. in 1994 for Hecht's. Previously it was Sears' west surface parking lot.

There was a Sears Auto Center somewhere near the corner of Glenwood Ave. and Creedmoor Rd. that opened with the original Sears store, but was razed when they relocated into their current store.

orulz, Neiman's in downtown Raleigh would be sweet, but there are multiple problems with the scenario.

One of the main ones is that there's only small pockets of upscale households inside the Beltline, and even a decade from now, that's not likely to change much.

If they opened at Crabtree, they would be too close to downtown to put up another store. Hudson Belk tried it with their Raleigh stores and the downtown store fizzled away.

Also, stores like that like to locate next to other upscale stores. Between Cameron Village, North Hills, and Triangle Town Center, the pie is already cut pretty thin and there's only so many nice stores to go around and so many customers.

Downtown would have to make a major turnaround that it imay be able to pull off, but odds are it won't

Edited February 28, 2005 by StevenRocks

[StevenRocks]

Good news for all the ersatz 'Main Street at the mall' fans from the latest edition of Shopping Centers Today magazine

Retail landlords in North Carolina

[DigitalSky]

Good news for all the ersatz 'Main Street at the mall' fans from the latest edition of Shopping Centers Today magazine 

Retail landlords in North Carolina

[Tayfromcarolina]

Cary Towne needs to be renovated if you ask me, it's about that time, compared to the newer malls. In fact it's last on my list of malls. They might need to think about adding a second story.

[StevenRocks]

I guess they'll redevelop the area in front of H-Belk where Barne & Noble and Toys-R-Us is??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's where I've heard it's going. I think they're going to do some sort of Restaurant Row with stuff like McCormick & Shmick's and Smith & Wollenskey, plus some additional retail; probably a couple of home stores.

Let me guess... Cary Towne Centre will get a streets section next? Haha... cuz Southpoint, and Triangle Town have it... Northgate and Crabtree are getting it... so Cary must be salivating at the idea of their own "main street"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Cary's track record holds, their Main Street section will be just as ghetto as the rest of the mall

Cary Towne needs to be renovated if you ask me, it's about that time, compared to the newer malls.  In fact it's last on my list of malls.  They might need to think about adding a second story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember when I first saw Cary Towne Center in '94, I couldn't believe anyone could get by with designing a mall that badly. It's ugly as sin, it's confusing, and to top it all off, it's too far to walk for no more than you're getting. It has been remodeled a couple of times: once in the late '80s, and again a couple of years ago, but neither renovation helped the place very much.

[orulz]

Just my opinion.. but...

why not build the "Main Street" ... on Main Street?! Fayetteville St in Raleigh would be a great place to make a for such a development... I HATE the "Streets" part of the "Streets at Southpoint." It's so FAKE... it's in such an enormous ocean of parking that it makes me dizzy to even look at it.

On the other hand, if they got rid of all the surface parking, replaced it with parking decks & 3-story apartments, and connected some of the neighborhood streets across I-40 in to the complex... then at least we're moving up into the category of "new urbanism." There has to be a precedent for turning traditional 100% retail establishments into new urbanism somewhere...

I'd also like to see Crabtree Valley incorporate a "new urban" element into this "main street" plan. Who knows, it might be really popular. The bus service to Crabtree is actually quite good and set to get better over the next few years. Crabtree Creek has one of the most pleasant and best built greenways in the city, so if people chose to live there they would be well very well served. Rex Hospital, the 2nd largest private employer in the county (after WakeMed), is nearby so you can bet that there would be a market... they'd just have to invest in good windowshades to block out the lights from the parking deck at night. ^^;

Edited March 3, 2005 by orulz

[JunktionFET]

Cary Towne Center was once Cary Village Mall. The old mall ended where Victoria Secret is now. Back then the center triangle shaped thing was a food court, of sorts. In 1989 (I think) they started the huge expansion project.

Along about 1990 my 8th grade technology class took a field trip to the new section of the mall and did a tour before it was completed. We all had to wear hard hats. The inside was just cinderblock walls and a muddy clay floor. When the addition finally opened, it was a big deal and included a complete rejuvenation of the old part of the mall as well.

Right outside the new food court there was a large oak tree. There was this big petition to keep the oak tree in tact, since it was hundreds of years old. They spent gobs of money on an irrigation system and this fancy retaining wall. Because of the way the land was graded, the tree and retaining wall towered above the surrounding parking lot. Within a few years, the tree ended up dying. They removed the tree, the expensive wall, and all the accessories, then paved over it with a parking lot.

[StevenRocks]

Just my opinion.. but...

why not build the "Main Street" ... on Main Street?! Fayetteville St in Raleigh would be a great place to make a for such a development... I HATE the "Streets" part of the "Streets at Southpoint." It's so FAKE... it's in such an enormous ocean of parking that it makes me dizzy to even look at it.

On the other hand, if they got rid of all the surface parking, replaced it with parking decks & 3-story apartments, and connected some of the neighborhood streets across I-40 in to the complex... then at least we're moving up into the category of "new urbanism." There has to be a precedent for turning traditional 100% retail establishments into new urbanism somewhere...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, but the Southpoint development is at least a step forward.

Southpoint's Main Street is very fake, and really all the mall succeeded in doing was creating more sprawl and killing off a perfectly good but butt-ugly South Square Mall, but it's at least a step forward rather than backward. Compare the relatively orderly, nice-looking developement around Southpoint to the typical mall garbage and it sure looks better and will age better, too.

It's the only mall I know of in the Triangle with housing planned with the mall. The apartments and single family homes aren't strongly connected to the mall proper, but here's a little more pedestrian acess on Rennisance Parkway than you'd expect. It's not like Crabtree, where you'd really risk life and limb crossing the 8 lane highway outside the mall.

A lot of people hate parking garges too. They fear that someone will attack them from the shadows, when really, the incidences of crime in enclosed areas are no worse than on surface parking lots. I don't have any statistics on that, but I'm sure I'm close if not right.

That and price of construction are why developers avoid them. When land is cheap and available, there's seemingly no need to consider any density. That's also what dooms most downtown retail projects. If there's not a paucity of land overall and a butt-load of tax incentives, the developers aren't interested in creative, dense urban development. It's sad for me to say as a designer but unfortunately true.

[orulz]

I agree, but the Southpoint development is at least a step forward.

Edited March 4, 2005 by orulz

[zt456]

Anyone have any news or info on new mall tenants?

[StevenRocks]

No word yet.

[dmccall]

The Triangle Business Journal reported that Crabtree is considering Bloomingdale's for the space.

Here's my story on it with a link to TBJ

[Justin6882]

^Dana, I just want to tell you your site is awesome. I just finished perusing it and found it very informative and especially well done, bravo!

[dmccall]

^Dana, I just want to tell you your site is awesome. I just finished perusing it and found it very informative and especially well done, bravo!

Hey! You're not supposed to use my real name here! I'm hiding behind this tricky, convoluted handle. "I'm, like, 'inburrito' or something."

Thanks, seriously!!!

[NCMike1981]

I would really rather see an anchor come to the mall, like Bloomingdale's or even Dillard's, but I have a feeling the space is going to be chopped up into smaller spaces. Hopefully they can get quality stores in there. It seems like when a mall loses an anchor it can be the start of the slippery slope into losing a-line tenants....of course now that May and Federated have merged there are going to be empty anchor stores at malls all over the country, so maybe the loss of an anchor isn't as important as it was a few years ago....

[Tayfromcarolina]

Once again I say Neiman Marcus if Charlotte has one so should we. Afterall we do have Saks and Nordstrom in the Metro now don't we. Whatever the case IT should be upscale retail dillards simply won't do. Dillards "Yawn".

[zt456]

The idea of a Bloomingdale's, Neiman Marcus, or Nordstrom never crossed my mind but that definately would be a good solution.

[DigitalSky]

I'm just really unsure on how thin the line will be between getting Macy's or Bloomingdale's at SouthPark ... I know Lord and Taylor was upscale so it's possible for Crabtree