Crabtree Valley Mall

[dmccall]

I heard a rumor from a very unreliable source that in so interesting it is worth throwing out for consideration. Some feel that KMart will want to start pulling Sears out of malls....well you can surmise the rest and how it relates to Crabtree. This, of course, is enormous speculation, so don't hold me to it!!!

[rooster8]

If Sears/Kmart is successful with their Sears Grand concept (a la SuperTarget), then I could see such a move.

I wish they would just merge the two stores and their best product lines and be done with it. They could even change the name to S-Mart (Army of Darkness reference).

[dmccall]

I wasn't aware of the Sears Grand concept. The whole thing sounds like if Kia and Hyundai teamed up to me

I always thought K Mart should rip up their tile floors, stain the concrete underneath a terra cotta color, change the ceiling and the lighting, and stock hip, cheap items for the home. Call it "HomeTown". It could rival Target's chabby chic market and be a home run.

[ncwebguy]

When I worked at Target (which looks really close to the store in the movie) when

friends would stop by, I would always say "shop smart, shop S-Mart". Some "got it" while

others just thought i was nuts. Good times!

If the Lord & Taylor is cut up, what would be a good fit for there? Urban Outfitters?

- A bigger pottery barn combined with pottery barn kids? Tie together Gap/gap kids/baby gap/gap body like Southpoint? Another restaurant, similar to the kanki at the other end of the "short axis"?

- A "botique wing" with small designer branded stores.

- A kids play area a la Southpoint, or with complementary stores like Triangle Town Center?

- An Old Navy, like in Northgate? The next closest stores to there are Cary and Poyner place.

The "Old Navy"-esque remodeling of K-marts would be an interesting concept... They could keep the k-mart name, or go with Sears Marketplace if the K-mart brand is considered damaged goods.

Also, where is the rumored apple store going? I don't remember there being any obvious storefronts not already spoken for, but it has been a while since I've been there.

If Sears goes, that could give Crabtree a chance to extend the deck through that area to

Creedmoor and do the "urban village/outdoor experience" thing on the top floor.

Or they could do some hotel/condo/movie theater/other entertainment tower to "twin" Glentree in that area? That is the low point of the valley, and traffic and building height are no longer issues for city council approval, so the sky is the limit!

[StevenRocks]

If Sears goes, they're getting Nordstorm for sure.

[DigitalSky]

You really think the Triangle would handle 2 Nordy's? I think it'll be extremely interesting if Kmart pulls Sears out of all malls.

Edited November 10, 2005 by cantnot

[csedwards72]

How is Crabtree faring vs. Triangle Town Center and the Streets at Southpoint? Over the long term, I don't see TTC and SatS keeping some upscale tenants and anchors along with mid-market ones; generally it seems as if one mall ends up being the upscale mall and the others lose upscale tenants. And if Crabtree loses two anchors, wouldn't it be negatively impacted? Then again, when SouthPark in Charlotte lost its Sears, it didn't seem to affect the mall at all; actually, the mall is probably faring better now since it's even more exclusive than before.

[NCMike1981]

LOL I doubt that Sears is going anywhere soon, although maybe if it did Crabtree would be desperate enough to actually take Nordtrom up on the free rent offer. Maybe Bloomingdale's will come since Glen Tree was approved. I doubt it but wishful thinking never hurt anyone.

By the way, anyone know if Nordstrom at Southpoint is there rent free or what?

[zt456]

Retailers just need to stop trying to monopolize. Instead of having 8 million different types of department stores all being converting into Macy's selling the same stuff, they should let them all run independently, selling there own stuff, creating some VARIETY giving the consumer some choices, and allowing competition (all major principles of good economics). Plus, most malls with 2 or more different Federated-May department stores are going to be negatively effected by this which is helping to kill off malls and instead create more lame big-box retail strip centers.

[dmccall]

It would be interesting. I kind of wonder what Sears' market is in 2005. It seems like big boxes like Home Depot, Best Buy, and Bed Bath and Beyond are doing MUCH better job than Sears is.

But don't quote me on this rumor of speculation!!!

[StevenRocks]

You really think the Triangle would handle 2 Nordy's?

Yeah I do. I think Macy's, Belk and Dillard's are missing the service and exclusivity angle Nordstrom has. And Crabtree's the best spot for it in the Triangle period.

How is Crabtree faring vs. Triangle Town Center and the Streets at Southpoint? Over the long term, I don't see TTC and SatS keeping some upscale tenants and anchors along with mid-market ones; generally it seems as if one mall ends up being the upscale mall and the others lose upscale tenants. And if Crabtree loses two anchors, wouldn't it be negatively impacted? Then again, when SouthPark in Charlotte lost its Sears, it didn't seem to affect the mall at all; actually, the mall is probably faring better now since it's even more exclusive than before.

Crabtree no longer dominates the local mall market, but it's still got its own crowd that spends well and stays loyal. TTC is making a name for itself...slowly. It's still mostly a community mall, but Saks is pulling in shoppers from all over the area. SatS is very well-tenanted and seems to be growing faster than the other malls in the area.

If Crabtree lost Sears, it might hurt short-term, but it can and will bounce back. There are simply too many good retaill concepts in need of space in a well-located upscale mall for either Sears or Lord & Taylor to stay vacant for long.

By the way, anyone know if Nordstrom at Southpoint is there rent free or what?

They got an exceptionally good deal on the space, but I don't think it's rent-free.

[csedwards72]

Triangle Town Center has sales of $329 per sf and is 87% occupied. Those sales figures are below the national average for malls. UBS is doing a financing of the mall as it's being sold by the current owner.

[urbanesq]

Retailers just need to stop trying to monopolize. Instead of having 8 million different types of department stores all being converting into Macy's selling the same stuff, they should let them all run independently, selling there own stuff, creating some VARIETY giving the consumer some choices, and allowing competition (all major principles of good economics). Plus, most malls with 2 or more different Federated-May department stores are going to be negatively effected by this which is helping to kill off malls and instead create more lame big-box retail strip centers.

another good principle of economics is that you have to make more money than it costs to operate. I think the consolidations are an alternative to liquidation. Department stores are in a business, as I understand it, with razor-thin profit margins. Loss of variety is another unfortunate byproduct of a mega-globalized system of product distribution where volume allows for reduced cost and thus the protection of those margins. It's really more about responding to Wal-Mart and Target in a race to the bottom, if you ask me.

Speaking of which , has anybody seen the Wal-Mart movie? I've long argued that if one forced the capture of the externalities associated with "Extra Low Prices" that they wouldn't be extra low at all.

[StevenRocks]

Triangle Town Center has sales of $329 per sf and is 87% occupied. Those sales figures are below the national average for malls. UBS is doing a financing of the mall as it's being sold by the current owner.

Maybe it's me, but that mall has a really hollow feeling. Not empty, but hollow. It's got some nice details, but I don't like it very much.

[urbanesq]

Maybe it's me, but that mall has a really hollow feeling. Not empty, but hollow. It's got some nice details, but I don't like it very much.

agree 110%. there's something so.... I dunno. mid-80's about it.

the last-minute alterations to make it more Southpointe-like fell flat as far as I can see.

[Damien]

^What were the last minute alterations?

[DigitalSky]

Triangle Town Center has sales of $329 per sf and is 87% occupied. Those sales figures are below the national average for malls. UBS is doing a financing of the mall as it's being sold by the current owner.

Was Triangle Town Center ever really necessary? I think Saks could have easily gone to North Hills' renovation or L&T's space. I agree with steven about it feeling hollow.

[Damien]

I dont think TTC was necessary.It was a nice addition to an otherwise pretty boring area, but not necessary. The mall was probably built in response to the construction of Wakefield Plantation, 540, and the substantial growth of Wake Forest.

[JunktionFET]

I can't say I like TTC very much. It feels sort of desperate in a way, for lack of a better word. Like someone else said, it has neat little features here and there, but otherwise feels like it's not supposed to even be there. I don't think it has made much of a dent in Crabtree or really even South Pointe. I think the only people who will really be veered away from Crabtree for typical shopping trips are those in northeast and east Raleigh, just because of convenience.

[DigitalSky]

I can't say I like TTC very much. It feels sort of desperate in a way, for lack of a better word. Like someone else said, it has neat little features here and there, but otherwise feels like it's not supposed to even be there. I don't think it has made much of a dent in Crabtree or really even South Pointe. I think the only people who will really be veered away from Crabtree for typical shopping trips are those in northeast and east Raleigh, just because of convenience.

Exactly. I know they lured Saks to make this mall a "destination" mall but honestly i'd choose Crabtree over it any day.

[urbanesq]

^What were the last minute alterations?

they have that pseudo-outdoor part with a couple of restaurants and a lame stream-like water feature. These were not, as I understand it, part of the original plan, but were hastily added when the Streets opened with such success in Durham.

[Damien]

I kinda like the outdoor part. There arent any stores i would shop at in that part, but its quite a relaxing little area with the sounds of the water trickling by and the fountain only footsteps away. The extension across the road that has Party City and Dicks and all that crap couldve been 86ed as far as im concerned. Why didnt they put those stores in Poyner Place and let the area directly across from the "street" part of the mall be developed with condos or apartments? Even a 9-5 office building wouldve been better than another lousy strip mall.

[StevenRocks]

I kinda like the outdoor part. There arent any stores i would shop at in that part, but its quite a relaxing little area with the sounds of the water trickling by and the fountain only footsteps away.

It is very pretty but it's usueless save for Orvis and Ted's. When you consider that North Hills and Southpoint did their outdoor shops a lot better architecturally with substantially better leasing, all the trickling water in the world can't make people shop outdoors at TTC, given a choice.

[Jones_]

I kinda like the outdoor part. There arent any stores i would shop at in that part, but its quite a relaxing little area with the sounds of the water trickling by and the fountain only footsteps away. The extension across the road that has Party City and Dicks and all that crap couldve been 86ed as far as im concerned. Why didnt they put those stores in Poyner Place and let the area directly across from the "street" part of the mall be developed with condos or apartments? Even a 9-5 office building wouldve been better than another lousy strip mall.

I also thought that area was perfect for a couple thousand apartments or so. Walking accross Sumner in the evening to catch a bite somewhere among all those restaurants seems like it would appeal to alot of people.

[DanRNC]

I always wonder why TTC wasn't built in a nicer area. I know it has easy access from 540 but the area is so run down. Hopefully some type of development will take the place of the suburban ghetto out there.