Crabtree Valley Mall

[Beth Y]

Every 10 years? I can think of, off the top of my head, three times at least the parking lots have flooded in the last 10 years. At least twice that the mall itself flooded.

[Jones_]

How do you figure? Pump the excess water to a holding tank/basin and then discharge it at a later time at a gradual rate.

I thought you meant to just pump the water from inside the mall to the outside. You just put the same concept into a separate configuration, you're just containing the H2O at a different elevation.....but your idea is much much more expensive given how large such a containment basin would have to be to hold even a 10 year event for an entire drainage basin upstream of the mall. Dikes aren't a great solution either when impact to other properties in the basin are taken into consideration....every foot of dike translates into a f oot of rise on the steeper opposite bank and less infiltration area around crabtree mall so more water is allowed to flow downstream....best solution (environmentally) is to abandon the ground level and tear out the concrete and push the mall up another level....growing flora under such a large building would be an issue....one a hydraulic engineer is not able to really answer.

Your idea might make sense up near the quarry but I have not seen the configuration of the outlet or what it would do to the quarry operation if every few years all that water backed up into their site, not to mention the effect on water quality of active quarry slurry being released into waters that are already highly turbid during a small rain event.

[JeffC]

I thought you meant to just pump the water from inside the mall to the outside. You just put the same concept into a separate configuration, you're just containing the H2O at a different elevation.....but your idea is much much more expensive given how large such a containment basin would have to be to hold even a 10 year event for an entire drainage basin upstream of the mall. Dikes aren't a great solution either when impact to other properties in the basin are taken into consideration....every foot of dike translates into a f oot of rise on the steeper opposite bank and less infiltration area around crabtree mall so more water is allowed to flow downstream....best solution (environmentally) is to abandon the ground level and tear out the concrete and push the mall up another level....growing flora under such a large building would be an issue....one a hydraulic engineer is not able to really answer.

Your idea might make sense up near the quarry but I have not seen the configuration of the outlet or what it would do to the quarry operation if every few years all that water backed up into their site, not to mention the effect on water quality of active quarry slurry being released into waters that are already highly turbid during a small rain event.

The dirty little secret of the Crabtree Creek basin (no pun intended) is the extent to which the numerous lakes built as flood control (Lake Lynn, Shelley Lake, lots of smaller ones all over the city) have silted up, thus reducing their flood control design capacity. The poster above is correct that the mall and flooding has happened several times over the last 10 years. Thats because it no longer takes a 10 year rain event to overwhelm the flood control system. Someone might want to check the weather data, but I don't think anything that has happened in the last 15 years or so (including Fran) was as big a rainfall event as the floods in the early 1970s just after the mall opened. Who knows what sort of disaster that amount of rainfall would be today, with probably a 10-fold increase in impervious surface in the Crabtree Creek basin. There might be water on the 2nd level of the mall...

[Cary NC]

I think one way to relieve the problem is to build a few more retention ponds( in this case they might have to be lakes) in order to catch the water before it makes it way to Crabtree. Going towards the other end build a lake to hold the water flowing past Crabtree. Have they actually thought about covering over Crabtree Creek, putting in 20ft by 20 ft concrete piping that would funnel the creek through the area and empty out to the lake they would build. There is a little bit a lnad left by Crabtree blvd and Capital blvd. The trick would be to make sure this lake stays empty as much as possible so when floods come it will have the capicity to handle the water from Crabtree creek upstream. Just a thought

Edited June 4, 2007 by Cary NC

[StevenRocks]

So nobody cares that Forever 21 is the 'mystery tenant?'

[Rufus]

personally I am kind of upset. Even Anthropolgie would have been better. I could see Forever 21 at a mall like TTC, in my opinion. It just seems like wasted space for a mall that needs to retain it's premier Triangle mall image. Hopefully the new L&T entrance stores and the recent store closings of Discovery store and Finks will bring some great mid to upper scale stores.

[dmccall]

Thanks for the info Steven. You rock. I don't know anything about that store, but the stuff on their website doesn't look very nice.

IIRC, Alberto (2006) was the largest rainfall in a 24h period in Raleigh's history. The largest rainfall in a 48 hour period was Fran (1996). We never had anything like 8" of rain in the 80's, and Crabtree never flooded in the 80's. There was much flooding circa 1974 (help me on this Jones, I was 5). It washed out the Old Lassiter Mill bridge and flooded the KMart, Ponderosa, and Al Smith back in the day. So, save for a 8" rain events, there really hasn't been a history of repeated flooding into the mall.

If you're worried about ground parking on the creek side, my question is: what are you doing parking there anyway? Crabtree is incredibly easy for parking if you'll go upstairs via old Edwards Mill and park behind the pavilion.

[DigitalSky]

So nobody cares that Forever 21 is the 'mystery tenant?'

My sister cares. She loves that store, lol

[RaleighRob]

^Hah!

I had to google it to figure out what it was. Looks like it's just a cross between American Eagle and Buckle, to be honest.

[JeffC]

So nobody cares that Forever 21 is the 'mystery tenant?'

I'm guessing we don't have too many 16 year olds hanging out on these boards...

[ncwebguy]

Forever 21 seems to be a bit "out of the box" for Crabtree, and looks like it would be more at home in Cary Town Center, and now TTC. CTC had the "no fear" store, the Triangle's first Aeropostale, one of the first mall locatoins for Gamefrog cafe (which could do well at Crabtree since they lost Cyberstation), and there always seems to be a bunch of kids wandering around there.

I guess that is the "it" market to cater to for the next few years, and the new center court space can be used for more upscale tenants. It is weird that Crabtree has been silent about the restaurants and the first floor below Belk Men's, which was mentioned in the recent stylin' column.

Another WTF decision by Crabtree management, but I want to thank, and not kill, the proverbial messenger.

[dmccall]

My mother's response was,"They're doing everything they can to have more and more teenagers just hanging around the mall". On the other hand, medium box brick and mortar retail is suffocating so badly that Crabtree is doing well to find something this decent.

[StevenRocks]

Forever 21 seems to be a bit "out of the box" for Crabtree, and looks like it would be more at home in Cary Town Center, and now TTC...

....I guess that is the "it" market to cater to for the next few years, and the new center court space can be used for more upscale tenants...

....Another WTF decision by Crabtree management, but I want to thank, and not kill, the proverbial messenger.

Truth be told, the space Forever 21 is getting has always been a stinker. The hippest thing to ever be near Macy's (by far) was Crate & Barrel, and the rest was almost always dreck. At least what's coming will be 'market exclusive' dreck.

My mother's response was,"They're doing everything they can to have more and more teenagers just hanging around the mall". On the other hand, medium box brick and mortar retail is suffocating so badly that Crabtree is doing well to find something this decent.

I think that kids are the target market for this enterprise, and they're really not being served very well by the current crop of Crabtree stores. In a way, that's not a bad thing, because Crabtree always has trended a little older and classier than most of the competition. But you gotta get new kinds of shoppers in to keep things current, and this may fit the bill.

A little cheap fun does pull in the kids before they learn to shop for quality.

[ncwebguy]

After reading Steven's post, I started thinking about what *has* gone into the Hechts/Macys and Sears end of the mall since Sears moved to their current location.

Waldenbooks - The small store's selection couldn't compete with B&N, Borders, and eventually Amazon and online retailers.

Musicland/Suncoast - Did ok charging too much for CDs for a while, but the group was bought out by Best Buy, which then shut them both down. Best Buy's move to the service center kept FYE out of Crabrtree, though I don't really like them either.

Seasonal/temporary stores -- Chrismas ornaments, games/toys and calendar stores. These (and Halloween stores) slide into unoccupied space for a few months and then shut down. Victoria's Secret was in that end when its stores were remodeled.

The piano store - not sure how they ever made a go of it, but was nice of the mall to move them "inside" when Best Buy took the service center space.

Pacific Sunwear/Journeys/d.e.m.o. - t-shirts, shoes, and more for "the kids" other than the gap/american eagle/abercrombie style.

DEB - never been in, looks like low end dresses and ?

Shoe stores -- I think there is one higher end store on the first floor, but Payless and now Rack Room seem to not be going anywhere. The Ladies (or kids?) Foot Locker on the second floor didn't last long. Foot Action on the first floor always looks empty compared to Champs and Foot Locker. How do they keep the lights on?

Sharon Luggage - they could go anywhere, and people will find them.

The most "Crabtree style" stores down there have been the afore mentioned Crate and Barrel, J. Crew, and the maternity store on the second floor. The garden store could be thrown in there, since it is west of the "main" food court entrance.

Crabtree is the right size/layout to not need a "teen wing" but it may lose its older base to TTC and Southpoint if it caters to teens too much. It seems the Belk Men's store, the new entrance below it, and the three new restaurants near Cheesecake Factory is Crabtree's effort to retain the "older" shoppers.

A lot of the kids who go to Crabtree now were barely walking when the rennovations finsihed, so they aren't indoctored with the "Crabtree ends at the food court" mindset. One big presence could anchor that end. It is interesting that Old Navy opted for the outside space. The in-mall location at Northgate didn't last too long, despite being the Triangle's only location for a couple of years.

Also, with K-B, Learningsmith (not sure if that was the name), Warner Brothers, the Museum store, Toys R Us, and the Discovery store gone, the only places to get a toy is the Disney Store, Build-a-bear, or the Sharper Image. I guess that due to families being so cost-focused that only Wal-Mart and Target can make a profit selling toys. Selling toys in the mall have been reduced to those mini-RC carts and the equivalent of the calendar stores.

[StevenRocks]

After reading Steven's post, I started thinking about what *has* gone into the Hechts/Macys and Sears end of the mall since Sears moved to their current location...

Crabtree is the right size/layout to not need a "teen wing" but it may lose its older base to TTC and Southpoint if it caters to teens too much. It seems the Belk Men's store, the new entrance below it, and the three new restaurants near Cheesecake Factory is Crabtree's effort to retain the "older" shoppers.

A lot of the kids who go to Crabtree now were barely walking when the rennovations finsihed, so they aren't indoctored with the "Crabtree ends at the food court" mindset. One big presence could anchor that end. It is interesting that Old Navy opted for the outside space. The in-mall location at Northgate didn't last too long, despite being the Triangle's only location for a couple of years.

The 'teen wing' concept has legs and it's off the beaten path of success, so it seems worth a risk, but will it actually work? I don't know either.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens with this new store and the complimentary retail round it. One thing's for sure, they really can't screw it up more

[Jones_]

I think one way to relieve the problem is to build a few more retention ponds( in this case they might have to be lakes) in order to catch the water before it makes it way to Crabtree. Going towards the other end build a lake to hold the water flowing past Crabtree. Have they actually thought about covering over Crabtree Creek, putting in 20ft by 20 ft concrete piping that would funnel the creek through the area and empty out to the lake they would build. There is a little bit a lnad left by Crabtree blvd and Capital blvd. The trick would be to make sure this lake stays empty as much as possible so when floods come it will have the capicity to handle the water from Crabtree creek upstream. Just a thought

Rentention ponds won't do a thing to help with the massive amount of water that is passing through Crabtree Creek at teh point of the mall. You would never get approval to enclose Crabtree in culverts. I am still not really sure where you put a "lake" that people keep bringing up....you would have to move people out of somewhere as things are pretty much developed all around here. If anything, such a lake should be exactly on the site of the mall....nature is telling you there used to be one here with the flooding pattern, probably as recently as 4-5 thousand years ago. This 8" rainfall event over the entire watershed is passing millions and millions of gallons of water past the mall in a 24 hour period, so containment of that is lamost impossible given the current build out situation. The existing lakes do little to help flooding during big events because the lake levels are not easily controlled with static standpipes, though the pipe itself ahs a physical limit to what it can pass though it by gravity. Dana, I was born in 1974 so do not remember the big floods from back then. I think 8" qualifies statistically a about a 75 year event, but I don't have the data handy for this area. 3" in 24 hours is probably a 10 year event, and I think 9" is 100 year.

[dmccall]

I'm impressed that a historian such as you is so "young"

[JeffC]

looking for the 24-hour rainfall records for RDU, I found this nugget from description of Fran in 1996:

On September 5-6 Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, received an all-time record 24-hour rainfall of 9.44 inches.

I cannot find a list of the top 10 24-hour rainfall events at RDU anywhere on the web...

[ncwebguy]

I finally made it into the Belk Men's store over the weekend. I didn't get anything -- out of my price range -- but a lot of other people were. I don't know why Tommy Bahama gets front and center space, unless they're paying for it. The Ralph Lauren brands were well stocked and merchandized, and the suit and tie area looked set up for an easy in and out trip for someone in a hurry.

The rennovations to the first floor of the old space have made it a zoo. Even on Saturday afternoon, it was crazy loud. It seems the existing setup was thrown together at random until they finish the new space.

Is the Forver 21 store taking up *all* the continuous space across from Crate and Barrel? It is blocked off as one wall from Suncoast to Sharon Luggage. Sharon Luggage needed signs up to tell people they are still there. The Lane Bryant is also closing, with signs bragging about their upcoming North Hills location. They didn't mention the existing brier creek store, which seemed odd. I wouldn't have gone in, except the wife kept finding things that were too good of a deal to pass up.

[StevenRocks]

I finally made it into the Belk Men's store over the weekend. I didn't get anything -- out of my price range -- but a lot of other people were. I don't know why Tommy Bahama gets front and center space, unless they're paying for it...

That's my suspicion as well. Not sure if the investment is paying off, though. I never see anyone wearing Tommy Bahama.

[RaleighRob]

That's my suspicion as well. Not sure if the investment is paying off, though. I never see anyone wearing Tommy Bahama.

I was recently somewhere where it was quite popular. Florida. Specifically, a town next to a retirement/golf resort.

And I'll leave it at that.

Edited July 10, 2007 by RaleighRob

[Rufus]

Well I finally ventured into the new Belk Men's Store. Man, is that a huge and nice store. I mainly ventured through the Ralph Lauren, Lacoste, and suits sections, but even looking at that felt so upscale and classy. According to the employee at the Ralph Lauren section, it is the largest collection of RL apparel of its type in the Southeast. The Lacoste section was also quite big, and I was surprised to see brands like Boss and Burberry in the suits section. Tons of nice apparel mixed in with the usual brands like Izod and Hilfiger. I think is was a smart move on Belk's part to create a men's store.

In other news, I saw a few empty store fronts in the mall which always leads me to dream about what might fill those spaces. The space between Banana Rep. and Bebe has always been a temporary store and now I think with that section of the mall being the considerable upscale district with Brooks Bros., Banana Rep., and Lacoste, that a real upscale store can fill it. Other empty storefronts included the old Body Shop, and the store next to Swarovski and MAC. Let's hope that the mall really pulls the right cards to fill them.

[StevenRocks]

I think the spaces closest to Center Court will definately go upscale. I just don't know what's coming

[NCMike1981]

How many empty storefronts are there in the mall? I mean are we talking 5ish range or more like 10+? I know it's nice to dream about what empty storefronts may become in the future but you don't want too many stores empty at any given time...

[StevenRocks]

If anybody goes to Hudson Belk, make sure you check out the new lighting on the first level of the main store in the handbag section. It's some kind of LED setup and it's awesome!