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Crabtree Valley Mall


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McCormick & Schmick's is pushing for a July 4th opening while the other two tenants -- Brio and Fleming's, are content with October.

With a M&S, they will get the business meeting and travelor there which drives the fact that many business people stay around crabtree. I even eat at M&S sometime although not my favorite place. The ones I usually eat at are in a DT location like in San Jose, but I can see why they chose Crabtree. I can see people walking over from Embassy Suites, marriott and the new Weston.

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  • 2 months later...

TBJ has a good article covering future tenants at Crabtree.

i just want to express my excitement here about Lush coming to crabtree: I'm very excited!

i continue to drive across town to go to CV instead of the closer TTC or NH. glad to see its becoming a premier place for retailers.

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I am shocked and happy that the owners of the mall are shooting high and have had talks with Neiman Marcus. Though a long shot, I think that if they were to come to the Triangle, Crabtree would be the place to locate. There are plenty of options for them to expand into that location.

the new retail mix announced is interesting and good. I won't say amazing until I hear the other the other retailers, but good job so far.

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Isn't Sears trying to move more towards free standing stores such as Sears Grand, The Great Indoors etc? If so then I believe Sears leaving CVM might be the case. That K-Mart location near TTC would be the perfect location for a Sears Grand to come especially with Super Wal-Mart coming in to try and finish off K-Mart.

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Isn't Sears trying to move more towards free standing stores such as Sears Grand, The Great Indoors etc? If so then I believe Sears leaving CVM might be the case. That K-Mart location near TTC would be the perfect location for a Sears Grand to come especially with Super Wal-Mart coming in to try and finish off K-Mart.

They just remodeled the inside of the Kmart near TTC somewhat, so I doubt it. They also added an oil changing place to that Kmart. Aside from that, I've heard that Sears was interested in a stand alone AT the CVM, so there is the possibility. The Sears there is fairly profitable for them, so I would be surprised if they up and left all together.

Edited by Gard
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I have a feeling some things will shift, though. Crabtree needs a classier anchor to round out some of the high-end offerings they're starting to push, and Sears is the weakest link in that regard, though I personally think it rounds out the mall's offerings. I could see them shifting to a different location on the property or nearby.

Slightly OT, I met the former owner of the Southport store at work. When she closed her store in '98, she moved to Roanoke and now co-owns a roofing business with her husband. She was highly impressed that I remembered her store.

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We went a couple of weekends ago and I noticed there was a fair amount of space to fill. It looks like some of it is spoken for (Gadzooks, Papyrus) but not all (Discover Channel store, the space that the "temporary" Oakely store will vacate when it moves back to its permanent space) to say nothing of the first floor of the L&T space (edit) and the soon to be empty Sharper Image space at center court.

If Crabtreen had been talking to NM, they should have pushed harder to put them in the L&T space than a potential Sears location. Though putting it there would have the potential for a "high end wing" like Southpark in Charlotte. So not only does the anchor go upscale, but it probably would attract higher end tenants than the current Rack Room Shoes, the candle store, Glamor Shots, and Lenscrafters.

Or they could split up the Sears space and add a couple more restaurants (though they may have enough after the three new ones) on the second floor and a larger Crate and Barell with furniture in the "Edwards Mill/Creedmoor" half of the space.

How big is the post office's space? Would/could Crabtree ask them to leave and redo the space behind B&N for NM or a shifted Sears?

Edited by ncwebguy
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I don't think L&T was ever on the table for a new department store. It's got a great center court interior mall location, but the visibility from Glenwood and the Beltline is nonexistent. When Plaza Associates finally bought out Federated's lease, Hudson Belk grabbed the opportunity to occupy the upstairs space. That was the best way to lock up market share against Macy's, and on Plaza's part, they dumped a spot that no self-respecting upscale store would have picked.

Sears offers visibility for whatever goes there. Same with most of the Convenience Center

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How big is the post office's space? Would/could Crabtree ask them to leave and redo the space behind B&N for NM or a shifted Sears?

Post office space is tiny. The only way they could get the post office to move is to give them a place to relocate to inside the mall if they agree to it. USPS, being a federal agency, plays by different rules than ordinary tenants. Typically, they prefer to negotiate things and I'm sure if the mall approached the post office about a new location inside the mall that they would agree to it if the mall footed the bill for the relocation and contruction of new post office. Now if they tried to kick the post office out, they would run into legal trouble because the post office has the right decreed on them by the Federal Government to place post offices wherever they feel the need is for one. So technically, Crabtree can't tell the USPS to leave.

There was an incident where I lived during college that involved the USPS and a developer. The developer wanted to put some stores into an old building on the property and the USPS wanted to expand the post office and occupy the entire building (which was a Service Merchandise at one point). Well, the USPS and developer failed to reach a deal, so the USPS seized the entire property (on grounds the seizure was for the benefit of the public) and gave the developer market rate for it. The developer tried to sue and ultimately lost. It didn't stop at that though....the city was quite upset about loosing a property that could have generated a lot of tax revenue (USPS doesn't pay taxes of any kind whatsoever) and tried to force their zoning regulations on the USPS. Lets just say the USPS basically told them that they were going design the post office the way the want regardless of city (or state for that matter) regulations because they are not subject to them as a federal agency and they did just that. I can see the USPS seizing Crabtree... So in a nutshell, the USPS tactic is to speak softly and carry a big stick. The only ones who can stop the USPS is the US Congress and 99% of the time they sidestep anything involving the USPS. How do I know this? I've got a couple relatives that are officials in the USPS. I've heard internal politics of the USPS my entire life.

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and tried to force their zoning regulations on the USPS. Lets just say the USPS basically told them that they were going design the post office the way the want regardless of city (or state for that matter) regulations because they are not subject to them as a federal agency and they did just that.

Which is how we got that craptastic thing on New Bern Avenue. Quite a departure from Century PO. I kind of think the PO would be better located off the mall property a tiny bit like say on the corner of Crabtree Blvd beside Tavola Rossi (sp).

I did not realize there was an Old Navy beside Barnes now. What a perfect spot for them actually. I spent half a day going to Best Buy, Old navy then Barnes and Noble, 1-2-3. I wonder when Crabtree will decide the out-parcels need to go? Some mid-rise office ringing the mall might be cool with some lunch type stuff on the ground floor and another parking deck incorporated somehow.

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If Crabtree offered large signage above the Glenwood entrance next to Ruby Tuesday, would that have been enough visibility to make the old L&T space viable for an upscale anchor? Crabtree has doen this within the mall, with the Macy's (or is it Crate and Barrel) sign near above their wing at the Sears/food court atrium and Hudson Belk's sign at center court. Higher end anchors should build traffic through excellent customer service, exclusive brands, etc. not highway visiblity. The Saks at Triangle Town Center is visisble from Old Wake Forest, but you wouldn't know it was a Saks from signage alone. Though at Southpoint, the higher end anchors (Macy's/Nordstroms/Belks) are visible from Fayetville Road while the lesser ones (JC Pennys, Sears) are not.

Belk's mens store is nice, but during our trip a couple of weekends ago, I realized I couldn't just wander off to browse the men's section while my wife shopped for herself without being quite far away. There aren't any "guys" stores in the Belks end of the mall with Ann Taylor Loft, Victoria's Secret, etc. I feel too old for Hollister, mildly liked Structure but am not drawn to its current Express Men incarnation. Babbages used to be down there years ago, but GameStop isn't leaving the food court any time soon with their upcoming rennovation.

It might have made sense for the Post Office to be on Crabtree property when it had a drug store and a "five and dime" type store, but those days are long gone. It would seem to be easier to get their trucks in and out if they were across Crabtree Creek somehwere, or even across Glenwood. It is scary that they can wield their emminent domain power with no check to their authority.

The TBJ article said the old First Union outparcel will become Diamonds Direct. Finally there won't be a Wachovia branch across from another Wachovia, but I chalked that up to volume and keeping out competiton. I think that could have been a good opportunity to have a ground floor branch, deck parking above and restaurants or more office above, but that probably won't happen with the current three restaurant lineup in-line with Belks and Cheesecake Factory. The design of the existing deck along Glenwood might not have made an eastern expansion easy, but it seems to be a fillable hole, especially if they bridged over the vehicle entrance from Glenwood. There would be more "convenience center visibility" if they redeveloped the land closest to Glenwood, with signs indicating the Best Buy/Old Navy/B&N tenants in their existing space.

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Adding more signs won't cut it for anchors like Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue. They don't need to have the most prominent location at the malls they're anchoring, but curb appeal means a lot to them, and the old Lord & Taylor had zero. May Company wouldn't have taken the space in '95 if they didn't already control it.

From a continuity standpoint, I really think Hudson Belk should have expanded the existing store rather than taking a dead anchor space. The main Crabtree store has never had a proper remodeling, and is quite dated in spots because they've never stripped the place down to the bones and started over like what L&T did with the Hecht's/Thalhimers space. With that said, I know why the did what they did. Along with market domination, a good reason to take Lord & Taylor was because the upfit costs were remarkably low. If you're familiar with L&T's old layout, you can pretty much pick it out down to the floors and even some fixtures. They're not really concerned about the lack of complimentary retail. Belk figures you'll shop there anyway because of the extensive selection of menswear.

Edited by StevenRocks
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Adding more signs won't cut it for anchors like Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue. They don't need to have the most prominent location at the malls they're anchoring, but curb appeal means a lot to them, and the old Lord & Taylor had zero. May Company wouldn't have taken the space in '95 if they didn't already control it.

From a continuity standpoint, I really think Hudson Belk should have expanded the existing store rather than taking a dead anchor space. The main Crabtree store has never had a proper remodeling, and is quite dated in spots because they've never stripped the place down to the bones and started over like what L&T did with the Hecht's/Thalhimers space. With that said, I know why the did what they did. Along with market domination, a good reason to take Lord & Taylor was because the upfit costs were remarkably low. If you're familiar with L&T's old layout, you can pretty much pick it out down to the floors and even some fixtures. They're not really concerned about the lack of complimentary retail. Belk figures you'll shop there anyway because of the extensive selection of menswear.

How much space would a Neiman Marcus need as compared to Sears? Enough, to much? :huh:

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I am more familiar with the old L&T's lower level floor plan, since that is where they kept their "mens" section, though it seemed to be mostly suits, shoes, and some other stuff thrown in to flesh it out. Belks' Mens store will have its first anniversary soon! Time flys! The "rennovation" in that space was nothing compared to the first floor of the anchor store. Most of the second floor of the anchor store, seen mostly cutting through to the escalator and/or following my wife while she shops) is quite dated (except for the former cafeteria area turned into the parking deck entrance) and cramped. An employee said they push as much inventory to the sales floor instead of storing it in the back. I guess this makes it easier on the sales help, since they never have to check in the back if everything is out. But it doesn't flatter the clothes, and makes walking off the racetrack/main aisles like being a rat in a maze looking for cheese.

Nothing will add curb appeal to the backside of a mall's center court, but some serious square footage could be cobbeled together if they went back to the old Thalheimers/Hechts alignment, with the anchor's entrance in-line with Harrod's and Oakley on the first floor and Williams-Sonoma on the second floor. Or those tenants could be moved elsewhere if the anchor tenant needed even more space/wanted the exposure for something like Nordstrom's e-bar and/or fuller service cafe/bistro. That would be bigger than the TTC Saks and close in size to the Southpoint Nordstroms.

I understand Belk's not caring that men no reason to go to the two story store unless they are shopping for someone else. But Crabtree should be somewhat concerned, unless they think Best Buy is "complementary". Or if they think retailers, and in turn mall management, will make more money by splitting the genders.

For all the stories of how retailers have fallen over themselves to get into Crabtree, it is interesting that it has taken so long to fill the lower half of the L&T space. Though it will make my current favorite parking spaces (outside the mall's only "hands free" entrance) harder to come by once stores start opening there.

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DTRG: The Sears is a little bigger than what NM is probably willing to operate in the Triangle. But that's not likely a factor in whether they come or not, because the building would either be modified or demolished. They wouldn't put in a Neiman Marcus in the space as is.

DMcCall: L&T's layout didn't make a lot of sense, so it's not likely anybody would have wanted it as is either.

ncwebguy: Hudson Belk should really renovate the second and third floors of the main store. They look horrible.

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Hudson Belk should really renovate the second and third floors of the main store. They look horrible.

There's a 3rd floor?? I never knew this and I've been going there for years, lol. Although I don't go over there anymore anyways due to the Mens Department being moved now, but still. Learn something every day.

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There's a 3rd floor?? I never knew this and I've been going there for years, lol. Although I don't go over there anymore anyways due to the Mens Department being moved now, but still. Learn something every day.

Wait until you are invited to more weddings.

For those who weren't here before, what, 1996?? Lord & Taylor's space was the two-story Thalheimers. The upper and lower levels of Thalheimers were almost flush with the mall stores. When they gutted Thalheimers to make L&T, they tore down the 1-level rear parking deck and greatly extended the department store's second floor toward the creek, but also pulled both stories' faces back from the mall axis as well. L&T certainly wanted all the women's stuff unbroken, so they put men and children downstairs. It's an odd configuration.

Maybe NM could keep the Jiffy Lube space and one could get their oil changed while shopping for furs! :lol::)

Edited by dmccall
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