Crabtree Valley Mall

[DigitalSky]

I was never big on Cary Towne Center's design... funny that they had a remodel only a few years ago.

[dmccall]

Yeah, let's talk about Cary Town Center. The strip from Dillards to Belk is the original mall. When they expanded toward the back in 1990, they had to grade some undulating land to being flat. In fact, there was a gorgeous oak tree that was "saved" after a lot of beotching and moaning.

Once the developer graded around the tree's hill, he built a retaining wall to save the tree at its original elevation. Problem is that the tree was now on top of a 40' (I kid you not) walled off (fenced off!) mound of dirt. Well OF COURSE it didn't live, so the mall finally hauled off the last of the tree and hill a few years ago and paved it so there would actually be more than 20 spaces walking distance from the food court.

My big question is: If the tree was 40' above where the grade ended up being for the mall, why on earth did the mall expansion have to step down 2 or 3 times from the original mall? Why couldn't they have built the expansion even with the old mall and had the tree only 30' in the air?

CTC is an absurd albatross that not even the Jacobs Co. knows what to do with. Their new mall manager is Christy Alphin who long served as Crabtree's PR person. She's got her work cut out for her.

[StevenRocks]

Yeah, let's talk about Cary Town Center. The strip from Dillards to Belk is the original mall. When they expanded toward the back in 1990, they had to grade some undulating land to being flat. In fact, there was a gorgeous oak tree that was "saved" after a lot of beotching and moaning.

Once the developer graded around the tree's hill, he built a retaining wall to save the tree at its original elevation. Problem is that the tree was now on top of a 40' (I kid you not) walled off (fenced off!) mound of dirt. Well OF COURSE it didn't live, so the mall finally hauled off the last of the tree and hill a few years ago and paved it so there would actually be more than 20 spaces walking distance from the food court.

My big question is: If the tree was 40' above where the grade ended up being for the mall, why on earth did the mall expansion have to step down 2 or 3 times from the original mall? Why couldn't they have built the expansion even with the old mall and had the tree only 30' in the air?

CTC is an absurd albatross that not even the Jacobs Co. knows what to do with. Their new mall manager is Christy Alphin who long served as Crabtree's PR person. She's got her work cut out for her.

Good points, although it's CBL's problem now. I didn't know about the tree.

I guess the question for CTC becomes "what do you do with a mall that's financially sound but funtionally warped and largely unexpandable?'

I think one of the anchors is going to pull out eventually, and it's probably going to be Macy's or Sears. That Hecht's is very small annd landlocked ans so is the Sears. Ideally, Sears would move to a freetanding site or Crossroads Plaza, and Macy's would shift its men's and kids' departments over into their space, combined with a home store, leaving the original Hecht's for women's apparel, which it primarily houses anyway.

Edited December 20, 2005 by StevenRocks

[DigitalSky]

Yeah, let's talk about Cary Town Center. The strip from Dillards to Belk is the original mall.

So the rest, Sears, JCP, Hecht's were added in 1990?!

Good points, although it's CBL's problem now. I didn't know about the tree.

I guess the question for CTC becomes "what do you do with a mall that's financially sound but funtionally warped and largely unexpandable?'

I think one of the anchors is going to pull out eventually, and it's probably going to be Macy's or Sears. That Hecht's is very small annd landlocked ans so is the Sears. Ideally, Sears would move to a freetanding site or Crossroads Plaza, and Macy's would shift its men's and kids' departments over into their space, combined with a home store, leaving the original Hecht's for women's apparel, which it primarily houses anyway.

I just don't see Sears leaving though- just like I don't see Sears leaving Carolina Place

[orulz]

I think one of the anchors is going to pull out eventually, and it's probably going to be Macy's or Sears. That Hecht's is very small annd landlocked ans so is the Sears. Ideally, Sears would move to a freetanding site or Crossroads Plaza, and Macy's would shift its men's and kids' departments over into their space, combined with a home store, leaving the original Hecht's for women's apparel, which it primarily houses anyway.

If Sears moved into Crossroads Plaza, they would probably be doomed. The Crossroads area has already grown larger than can be supported by the car-dependant circulation of a big-box / strip mall farm. Some of the redundant stores should have gone somewhere else (Circuit City / Best Buy; Home Depot / Lowes; Bed, Bath & Beyond / Linens -n- Things; Office Depot / Office Max; Shall I go on?). Every time you go to another store, you have to take a 3,000 pound chunk of plastic and steel with you (meaning you take up 50 times more space) so of COURSE traffic is going to suck. It's the most poorly designed shopping area I've ever seen, and the blame falls squarely on the town of Cary for allowing it in the first place (and then allowing it to EXPAND!!). I think the place is on the decline already due to its terrible traffic issues and braindead layout. Even your average Joe or Jane Shopper recognizes that the Crossroads system doesn't work. Yup! That place is doomed.

[StevenRocks]

So the rest, Sears, JCP, Hecht's were added in 1990?!

I just don't see Sears leaving though- just like I don't see Sears leaving Carolina Place

Sears, JCP, and Hecht's (Thalhimers) were added to CTC in 1990-91. in addition, Hudson Belk expaneded and added a second floor, while Dillard's closed the Ivey's there and rebuilt right beside it.

Carolina Place is safe anchor-wise. Cary's differnt because the Sears and Hecht's anchors are so small. Hecht's Cary is 1000,000 square feet and has never had a home department and Sears Cary is somewhere between 90,000-110,000 square feet and has been pretty much outmoded from the start.

If Sears moved into Crossroads Plaza, they would probably be doomed. The Crossroads area has already grown larger than can be supported by the car-dependant circulation of a big-box / strip mall farm. Some of the redundant stores should have gone somewhere else (Circuit City / Best Buy; Home Depot / Lowes; Bed, Bath & Beyond / Linens -n- Things; Office Depot / Office Max; Shall I go on?). Every time you go to another store, you have to take a 3,000 pound chunk of plastic and steel with you (meaning you take up 50 times more space) so of COURSE traffic is going to suck. It's the most poorly designed shopping area I've ever seen, and the blame falls squarely on the town of Cary for allowing it in the first place (and then allowing it to EXPAND!!). I think the place is on the decline already due to its terrible traffic issues and braindead layout. Even your average Joe or Jane Shopper recognizes that the Crossroads system doesn't work. Yup! That place is doomed.

Crossroads is a turkey, but there is some logic in the placement of anchors. Normally to have that much choice, Cary would have to have two large big-box shopping centers where one of each kind of store would have to locate. By comparasin, they have one that has everything and despite its myriad layout problems, it can be fixed.

One of the easiest ways would be to completely rework the road system so that the entrances and exits are better labeled. Another would be to add a trolley-bus system to the center so that shoppers wouldn't have to move their cars so much. I saw one of those at an outlet mall in Pigeon Forge and it worked very well.

I think with a better road system that a frestanding Sears at Crossroads would work well.

Edited December 20, 2005 by StevenRocks

[avery]

I had to go leave Crabtree last night to go to Cary Towne Center to find something last night. What a mistake! We ended up heading back to Crabtree. CTC may serve the people of Cary, but it definitely is not a shopping destination.

Crossroads is a freaking mess and avoid it like the Plague. The layout and congestion there is aweful. Yeah, adding a Sears would do nothing for Sears. They are better off where they are. Why go through the expense to relocate a couple of miles down the road for potentially the same amount of sales with less parking.

[dmccall]

I really don't have much problem with the traffic at Crossroads. I'm there 3X a week. Maybe I've just found a way that works for me.

Crossroads is what it is; a saving grace to a massive bath someone took. It was going to be a high end mall and was so sound the state built the impressive swoopie ramp from the north into the place. After the land was cleared, the company went belly up. The buyer couldn't keep the high end mall together, so he went with a big strip shopping center. That's when Cary Village Mall decided they could expand instead of becoming the next South Hills. It's all a series of afterthoughts.

Crossroads could be converted, though. Adding some residential in there with the big boxes might be interesting. The access to I-40 and 440 makes the area forever secure and fairly convenient to most anyone's work place.

It's really weird that Crossroads has multiple options for several things, but no bank or ATM to speak of.

[avery]

I really don't have much problem with the traffic at Crossroads. I'm there 3X a week. Maybe I've just found a way that works for me.

Crossroads is what it is; a saving grace to a massive bath someone took. It was going to be a high end mall and was so sound the state built the impressive swoopie ramp from the north into the place. After the land was cleared, the company went belly up. The buyer couldn't keep the high end mall together, so he went with a big strip shopping center. That's when Cary Village Mall decided they could expand instead of becoming the next South Hills. It's all a series of afterthoughts.

Crossroads could be converted, though. Adding some residential in there with the big boxes might be interesting. The access to I-40 and 440 makes the area forever secure and fairly convenient to most anyone's work place.

It's really weird that Crossroads has multiple options for several things, but no bank or ATM to speak of.

That is an interesting idea. They would have to create some serious parking to accomodate this though. The problem is that it would still be a heck of a hike from Old Navy to REI. The layout of the retail would be on the outskirts and the residential in the interior. To make it work, it would seem as if it would have to be the other way around.

Granted, the access to the freeway is pretty nice if you are GOING TO Raleigh. If you are coming and going from elsewhere or coming in from Raleigh, it is still a cluster.

[NCMike1981]

I've always thought that Cary Towne Center should be more upscale then it is, I mean supposedly the people of Cary are so wealthy. Yet the mall seems to be so so. I mean it doesn't even have an Abecrombie & Fitch or Hollister. Has the mall gone down hill since the 2 new malls opened or has it always been just blah? Could it ever go more upscale or do u think that between Southpoint, Triangle Towne and Crabtree the area is kind of malled out and that Cary Towne is just barely holding on?

[orulz]

I think with a better road system that a frestanding Sears at Crossroads would work well.

IF a freestanding Sears were to happen, would it go in place of one of the redundant stores? Or would it add further redundancy? (Sears / Target)? Maybe?

[StevenRocks]

I've always thought that Cary Towne Center should be more upscale then it is, I mean supposedly the people of Cary are so wealthy. Yet the mall seems to be so so. I mean it doesn't even have an Abecrombie & Fitch or Hollister. Has the mall gone down hill since the 2 new malls opened or has it always been just blah? Could it ever go more upscale or do u think that between Southpoint, Triangle Towne and Crabtree the area is kind of malled out and that Cary Towne is just barely holding on?

I'm not sure what people in Cary are spending their money on, but it's not clothes or shoes. CTC and Crossroads both have really bland stores with even blander apparel.

IF a freestanding Sears were to happen, would it go in place of one of the redundant stores? Or would it add further redundancy? (Sears / Target)? Maybe?

I figure it could go right in the center of the development where that group of stores that nobody shops at is now. Sears would be a good hub.

[avery]

I'm not sure what people in Cary are spending their money on, but it's not clothes or shoes.

Gas money

[perrykat]

Another strange thing about CTC is the fact that in parts every 100 feet or so there are stairs and ramps. It's probably the strangest place I've ever been in; I guess it's better than nothing.

Speaking of South Hills Mall, that was another interesting mall before they messed with it a couple of years ago and took most of the smaller stores out. Anything new there?

[dmccall]

Another strange thing about CTC is the fact that in parts every 100 feet or so there are stairs and ramps.

That's what I was talking about. Why on earth did the expansion have to slope downward to the point that they had to put stairs in the mall? Obviously from the grading around the tree it was totally intentional.

[orulz]

(Getting way off topic here, but..)

Ever been to Asheville Mall? That mall has stairs and ramps all over the place, but I think that's due to the mall being built on a hill rather as opposed to being a "design feature."

[StevenRocks]

That's what I was talking about. Why on earth did the expansion have to slope downward to the point that they had to put stairs in the mall? Obviously from the grading around the tree it was totally intentional.

All I can figure is that when they did the excavation for the mall they found out that sloping the site made it more stable to build on. Charlottesville Fashion Square in Virginia was built on a similar site and has stairs and ramps all over it too.

Still not an excuse for it being a crappy mall, but it is an explanation.

[Damien]

North Wilkesboro Mall has slopes and stairs too, although I'm not 100% sure that mall is even open anymore.

[NCMike1981]

The Wilkes Mall is no longer with us. The Belks and JCPenney became freestanding and the mall closed down. I heard that Lowes uses the mall for offices or storage.

By the way Northgate Mall in Durham has the sloping going on in the wing from the center court down towards the former Hudson Belk. There aren't stairs or ramps or anything, just feels like u are walking down/up a hill inside a mall.....

I think the reason that Cary Towne is so bland even though it is in such a wealthy community is because the wealthy choose to spend their money at the bigger 3 malls in the Triangle. Maybe if Cary Towne Center had been built as the standard 2 story rectangular shape mall with 5 anchors it might be a bit more upscale, but I think it's mostly viewed as "lowmarket" for the wealthy of Cary....plus the original part of the mall still has the 70's era brown brick and/or tiles on the floor, while the newer part has a more 1990's appearance...

[perrykat]

Here's the Cary Towne floorplan. It's obvious that the Hecht/Dillard's were added on.

http://www.shopcarytownecentermall.com/sho...gif?openelement

When they expanded, they should have just added a second level. If I owned that mall, I don't know what I'd do. It's pretty successful, so I guess it's better left alone.

Edited December 21, 2005 by perrykat

[Jones_]

Here's the Cary Towne floorplan. It's obvious that the Hecht/Dillard's were added on.

http://www.shopcarytownecentermall.com/sho...gif?openelement

When they expanded, they should have just added a second level. If I owned that mall, I don't know what I'd do. It's pretty successful, so I guess it's better left alone.

I remember a day..back in the late eighties...Crabtree and CTC were considered the two malls to be at for teenagers. North Hills, South Hills, North Gate, South Square...they were all on the Radar but not worth calling up your friends to hang out at. In keeping up with the Joneses (Southpoint and TT...us Joneses...we are hard to keep up with ) Only Crabtree succeeded..some fell short in their efforts (CTC), others hung up their Mall dance shoes entirely (NH, SH, SS) and one is still trying NG. Seems like successful malls now need more retail in teh area than just the mall itself...crabtree has some...TTC and Southpoint have a bunch...the failed malls had very little as does Cary Towne Center....Crossroads is a distance away...not sure how that bodes for CTC's future but the correlation is interesting.

[StevenRocks]

By the way Northgate Mall in Durham has the sloping going on in the wing from the center court down towards the former Hudson Belk. There aren't stairs or ramps or anything, just feels like u are walking down/up a hill inside a mall.....

I think the reason that Cary Towne is so bland even though it is in such a wealthy community is because the wealthy choose to spend their money at the bigger 3 malls in the Triangle. Maybe if Cary Towne Center had been built as the standard 2 story rectangular shape mall with 5 anchors it might be a bit more upscale, but I think it's mostly viewed as "lowmarket" for the wealthy of Cary....plus the original part of the mall still has the 70's era brown brick and/or tiles on the floor, while the newer part has a more 1990's appearance...

Northgate used to be a strip mall, so that explains part of its sloping interior.

I agree with you on Cary. All things being equal, why would someone with money put up with CTC with better shopping nearby?

They cut so many corners with the renovations. Hudson Belk's mall entrance is still straight up 1979!

Seems like successful malls now need more retail in teh area than just the mall itself...crabtree has some...TTC and Southpoint have a bunch...the failed malls had very little as does Cary Towne Center....Crossroads is a distance away...not sure how that bodes for CTC's future but the correlation is interesting.

Crabtree and Cary have additional retail roughly the same distance from the mall. In both cases you pass through a mile or two of offices/residential to get to it. In Crabtree's case, though, it's a better-leased, better-designed, better-located mall.

[Jones_]

Crabtree and Cary have additional retail roughly the same distance from the mall. In both cases you pass through a mile or two of offices/residential to get to it. In Crabtree's case, though, it's a better-leased, better-designed, better-located mall.

I was thinking of the self-supplied Pier 1/Barnes and Noble chunk and Circuit City as being the 'little bit' but I presume you are referring to Best Buy and all that up Glenwood?

[StevenRocks]

I was thinking of the self-supplied Pier 1/Barnes and Noble chunk and Circuit City as being the 'little bit' but I presume you are referring to Best Buy and all that up Glenwood?

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

CTC has a Barnes & Noble across the street and some outparcels, which would put it in the same amout of immediate retail buildup as Crabtree.

[Jones_]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

CTC has a Barnes & Noble across the street and some outparcels, which would put it in the same amout of immediate retail buildup as Crabtree.

Oh yeah forgot about that stuff near CTC. Barnes and Noble is a bigger draw than the mall for me to that area...funny how that is...