The identity of the Triangle

[orulz]

You missed Mo Joe's and Mellow Mushroom at Glenwood & Peace. Both of those are affordable and not exclusive or intimidating.

[NCMike1981]

How late is Chick-fil-a open until downtown?

[Raleighsfinest]

Like I said, I need more things to do than just eat and shop. I've always known Raleigh has many eating options, but I'm talking about good old fashioned hangout spots.

[MR-2]

I never understood why the NC Zoo is in Asheboro. Raleigh is the capital. Why isn't it here? Sure, the national forest is pretty, but it's in the middle of nowhere. That said, they're never going to move it. No reason to now, since it gives Asheboro an economy of sorts.

I'm starting to think a full-fledged water park is the way to go. Off of I-40 near Garner, it would be perfect. Downtown needs an urban market, an indoor urban mall, a five-star hotel and casino, an Aquarium, and a signature tower with an observation deck.

Then again, who in their right mind wouldn't want all of that stuff in their downtown?

[Raleighsfinest]

I never understood why the NC Zoo is in Asheboro. Raleigh is the capital. Why isn't it here? Sure, the national forest is pretty, but it's in the middle of nowhere. That said, they're never going to move it. No reason to now, since it gives Asheboro an economy of sorts.

I'm starting to think a full-fledged water park is the way to go. Off of I-40 near Garner, it would be perfect. Downtown needs an urban market, an indoor urban mall, a five-star hotel and casino, an Aquarium, and a signature tower with an observation deck.

Then again, who in their right mind wouldn't want all of that stuff in their downtown?

Your'e right.

[avery]

I think there are plenty of things to do. Restaurants, museums, bars at Glenwood South, a comedy club, art galleries, performing arts... What else would you like to see downtown?

I do think a nice urban mall would be great.

[Raleighsfinest]

Me personally, i'm not talking about just DT. Everyone isn't in to art galleries,parks, and museums. I like race tracks, pro sports,water parks,live strips that I can drive down, black night clubs, hole in the wall rap and rnb concerts, Female concentrated events, anyplace where it's really poppin. Years back Raleigh was more live for people in my demographic.

[JDC]

How late is Chick-fil-a open until downtown?

On Sundays they're open from never until never.

[JDC]

Downtown needs an urban market, an indoor urban mall, a five-star hotel and casino, an Aquarium, and a signature tower with an observation deck.

Then again, who in their right mind wouldn't want all of that stuff in their downtown?

Are you kidding? That's where that kind of stuff should be. Take Boston as an example. They've got an urban market, two indoor urban malls, several five-star hotels, an aquarium and two signature towers with observations decks. No casinos, but there are horse and greyhound tracks.

If Raleigh is to be considered a major city someday (or at least a city with an identity) it needs stuff. Maybe not all of that stuff, but something else besides a couple museums and the state capitol.

[Jones_]

I am a big historic preservationist and concern myself with architecture as it relates to urban feel and pedestrian accesibility. Geographicly Downtown Raleigh is small. Certain parts of it are hard to get to with all the street closures over the years due to Railroads, State govenment expansion and plain dumb reorienting of some roads. Years ago all of downtown looked like the area around Hargett and Wilmington...two and three story storefronts with some midrise on the corners. From what I am hearing that people want, this is the architectural setting that allows such environments and urban atmospheres to evolve. Between, State, County and City government, the N&O, various churches and property owners with no incentive, something like 100 buildings similar to the renovated Raleigh Times building have been lost. I want to open a movie store that specializes in B movies...where am I going to do it? In the base of the Wachovia Tower?? Of course not. Places like Coopers exist in part because of the building they inhabit. Now that the wiping out of street level active architecture has taken place, Raleigh's downtown grid is not big enough to expand away from the unfriendly areas. We can only hope that the N&O and Wake county redevelopments and the Blount Street redevelopment turn out really well or the chracterless feel of downtown will persist. Even Glenwood south has its problems with access...if I worked in State Government (I do actually, out of downtown though) I have two options for driving (hope most would walk though) to Glenwood...Peace and Edenton. Tucker, Johnson, North, Lane and Jones do not go to Glenwood (Jones does go away from it). Downtown's connectivity and architectural merit are by in large the biggest obstacles to a large quilt of active urban beauty ever being completely realized. The folks talking about the area between the CC and TTA being like Capital Hill are seeing a vision I also hope for.

[urbanesq]

You missed Mo Joe's and Mellow Mushroom at Glenwood & Peace. Both of those are affordable and not exclusive or intimidating.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too oblivious to others to be intimidated, but what about Hard Times (totally affordable, very tasty chili), the Rockford (moderately affordable, very tasty), Bogart's (hard luck lunch is hard to beat), Sushi Blues (ok, so not affordable per se but very tasty), April & George (shi shi lunch but not through the roof), 518 (Glenwood South; moderately pricey, but not crazy), Humble Pie (they used to be open for lunch anyhow), Duck & Dumpling (city market/Moore Square, Asian fusion, good food, decent prices), Napper Tandy's, Vic's (city market italian-- stromboli is hard to beat), Caffe Luna (Moore Square, also not exactly affordable, but not through the roof), Zely & Ritz (Glenwood South, organic), Cafe Carolina (Wachovia Bldg), China Market (salisbury st), Cody's Chinese (Glenwood South), Finch's (Peace Street, a dive with great diner food), Hibernian, Jersey Mike's, Mellow Mushroom (Peace St), Poole's (formerly Vertigo, near new convention center site), Quizno's (just off Fayetteville St. Mall), the cafeteria in the Leigslative Building (affordable, open to the public, and a truly entertaining place), the Light House (Progress Energy Cafeteria, very cheap, mediocre quality, open to the public, discount for Progress employees), Roly Poly (near Caffe Luna), Brass Grill (Wilmington St., HUGE variety, very reasonably priced, awesome mashed potatoes), Mecca (where most of the State's business is transacted, diner food), Side Street (Oakwood), Seaboard Cafe (by Logan's trading post, just north of Peace St,) Southend Brewery (middle-ish prices), State Soda Shoppe (across from the Courthouse, absolutely the BEST milkshakes anywhere on earth), Roast Grill/Hot Weiners place (near Char Grill, they only serve hot dogs but they're oh, so very good), Woody's (City Market)....

What else...

Oh, yeah. Berkley Cafe on Nash Square. And that Cuban place near there. And Est Est Est beside that. (ok, so maybe that last one is a little exclusive-ish)

And all the places on Hillsborough Street.

And all the places on Western Boulevard, but I suppose that's a bit far...

Agreed that there aren't enough good, cheap places to make a 24/7 downtown, but there are a ton of good, cheapish places.

[raleightransplant]

I don't know. Maybe I'm too oblivious to others to be intimidated, but what about Hard Times (totally affordable, very tasty chili), the Rockford (moderately affordable, very tasty), Bogart's (hard luck lunch is hard to beat), Sushi Blues (ok, so not affordable per se but very tasty), April & George (shi shi lunch but not through the roof), 518 (Glenwood South; moderately pricey, but not crazy), Humble Pie (they used to be open for lunch anyhow), Duck & Dumpling (city market/Moore Square, Asian fusion, good food, decent prices), Napper Tandy's, Vic's (city market italian-- stromboli is hard to beat), Caffe Luna (Moore Square, also not exactly affordable, but not through the roof), Zely & Ritz (Glenwood South, organic), Cafe Carolina (Wachovia Bldg), China Market (salisbury st), Cody's Chinese (Glenwood South), Finch's (Peace Street, a dive with great diner food), Hibernian, Jersey Mike's, Mellow Mushroom (Peace St), Poole's (formerly Vertigo, near new convention center site), Quizno's (just off Fayetteville St. Mall), the cafeteria in the Leigslative Building (affordable, open to the public, and a truly entertaining place), the Light House (Progress Energy Cafeteria, very cheap, mediocre quality, open to the public, discount for Progress employees), Roly Poly (near Caffe Luna), Brass Grill (Wilmington St., HUGE variety, very reasonably priced, awesome mashed potatoes), Mecca (where most of the State's business is transacted, diner food), Side Street (Oakwood), Seaboard Cafe (by Logan's trading post, just north of Peace St,) Southend Brewery (middle-ish prices), State Soda Shoppe (across from the Courthouse, absolutely the BEST milkshakes anywhere on earth), Roast Grill/Hot Weiners place (near Char Grill, they only serve hot dogs but they're oh, so very good), Woody's (City Market)....

What else...

Oh, yeah. Berkley Cafe on Nash Square. And that Cuban place near there. And Est Est Est beside that. (ok, so maybe that last one is a little exclusive-ish)

And all the places on Hillsborough Street.

And all the places on Western Boulevard, but I suppose that's a bit far...

Agreed that there aren't enough good, cheap places to make a 24/7 downtown, but there are a ton of good, cheapish places.

Good options, true. Fair enough..maybe I'm generalizing too much.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Did anyone mention "Arthurs Top of the Tower" At the Clarion hotel. They have a fantastic buffet for only 6.95 and they stay open until like 9:00 in the evening. It is too good. They have a real nice setup and a Bar and everything.

[ncwebguy]

I did list a lot of those... the ones I didn't list were ones I don't feel are "cheap" -- reasonable for what you get yes, but cheap? no.

Mojo's and Mellow Mushroom are intimidating to me personally because their wait staff appear to be in a comeptition as to who pays the least amount of attention to their customers who aren't a) cute b) high and/or drunk or c) a combination of a and b. This saves time to talk about customers, managment, and/or flirt.

I did forget roast grill and roly poly (though both are not open for dinner) and turkish delights, an ice cream/coffee shop near 518. Hi 5, Hard Times, Hibernian, Sushi Blues, SouthEnd, Five Star, est est test/cuba, cafe luna, duck and dumpling, Vics, etc. all fall in that "just out of cheap" category.

I didn't know about the Arthurs place and go by there quite frequently! Need to check that out some time!

Then there are the "no where near cheap, but it's neat downtown has them" places like Red Room, Sullivans/April and George, 42nd street oyster bar, Second Empire (the new expansion's menu looks to be reasonably priced!) , Nana's Chophouse, Humble Pie, etc. Hopefully something along these lines will open in the new Marriot and nearby places.

While walking around downtown last night on the way to dinner at char grill and before getting rained on something fierce, i saw the following "coming soon"s:

- Zydeco (in city market in the old dibella/jayzz spaces) looked *really* close to being open, maybe in the next week or two

- Pharoes (sp?) - hot dogs/hamburgers in the bottom of the new Progress Energy building

- the deli in the wilmington sign of the Hudson (though there was nothing *but* the sign)

- martin st. pizza/ali bi bar (in basement where lizzy's was)

- yancey's at the warehouse

- kultrue - have no idea, but it's where VIP was, across from the warehouse

- some jazz/cigar bar on glenwood, south of 518 on the same side of the street

- fixing up the basement area of the building across jones from 518

- Also the lights were on in the storefronts Greenshields used to use as storage along Blount, so hopefully someone will step up and fill them soon.

As far as an "urban market" i think city market would be ideal -- either around the building Greenshields used to be in, the parking lot by person street which is barely used on the weekends, or moore square itself.

I have thought about boxing some books, etc. up and see if anyone walking by would by them, but i don't know what kind of vendor's permit would be required, or if such a permit exists (outside of the hot dog vendors already out there)? It would be cool if was something exotic like Camden street or artistic like the Grenich market -- a scaled down Artsplosure, but more often!

Unfortunately, i don't know if:

- the retailers already in city market would complain that they pay rent and the "market vendors" wouldn't.

(even though such a market could *increase* traffic to the area)

- the three existing flea markets (state fair, Watson's off Rock Quarry road, and Raleigh Flea Market mall) would find some way of keeping out "competition"

- would people drive past the existing markets to go to one downtown/will there be enough population downtown to make it worthwhile for the vendors?

It would be *really* nice if an "urban mall" was made up of the ground floor of the 9-10 story complex replacing the east side of the convention center, the marriot, and the parking lots betwen the current CC and Raleigh Memorial Auditorium. Fayetville street could end as a turing circle/drop off area in front of the Marriot/East-West complex, leaving a pedestrian plaza through to the southern block and giving a line of sight from the old capital to RMA. Even if the Marriot isn't on board, the city owns the other 3 parcels and appears to want to do something along these lines to give convention goers, concert goers, and area residents something to do in "FayetteSouth".

As for "hole in the wall rap and r&b concerts" i thought this market would be served in the block of hargett between person and wilmington -- there are three bars including Two Ts right next to each other, and limelight right across the street. But there is the intimidation of door personel and people "just hanging out" on the street against non-African-Americans. The Berkley Cafe used to book some rap/hip hop nights too, but i don't know how successful they were.

It would be nice if shaw students had some places near their campus, but i don't know if the population there is enough to support it. I know the new administration there is looking to expand, and there was talk of putting clubs/museums in around the Pope House on wilmington street. I hope Zydeco and Yancey's warehouse fill this niche well, but it would be nice if other clubs like Lincoln Theater, Pour House, etc. booked such acts too.

[Damien]

I was gonna mention that block of Hargett where the african am. clubs are as well. Hargett seems to be the place in downtown where the minortities have their establishments. You've got the gay area on the western side of hargett, and the af.am. clubs on the east side. The Berkley hosts a lot of underground dance music now. A lot of people refer to it as the jungle den because many of the big name djs that play there spin jungle/drum&bass

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

One option for the site of an urban shopping complex would be city block where Clyd Cooper's BBQ is located/Wilmington-Davie-Blount-Martin Streets. Most of the land is owned by Progress energy which they bought from First Citizens Bank. They,(First Citizens), used to have a conscious about the possibilities of downtown Raleigh. Can you tell that I am P.O. with them? Especially since that block lines Fayetteville Street to the City Market area. Just a thought!

[DanRNC]

Berkley Cafe also has a lot of underground metal shows as well.

[ChiefJoJo]

I mean, the attitude you can get from places like Lilly's or Third Place are enough to really turn some people off.

I'm glad (well, not really) someone else has had that treatment. I went to Lily's 2 weeks ago and felt like I walked in with purple hair and my pants down. Very burdensome to get so many stares just walking into a place. The pizza is better at MelloM anyway...

IMO, we certainly need several things in DT for Raleigh to really take off:

8k+ residents

TTA

a retail and entertainment center

a grocery store/market

another corp HQ relocation

some small tech firms

walkable, connected streets

move state employees back DT

[krazeeboi]

Where do state employees currently work?

[DanRNC]

I have never gotten bad service at Mojo's-its one of my favorite cheap joints in Raleigh. I also thought the state employers were just moved downtown to a renovated building on Fayetteville St.

[ChiefJoJo]

Where do state employees currently work?

I should clarify... many do work DT, but their are plenty that don't as well. DOT and DENR each have large numbers in leased office space near 440--folks are spread out wherever there is space, and there's almost never any new construction in the name of cost savings. If the state woud just invest some money in the future by building up in DT on land it already owns, then many agencies could consolidate there several thousand employees in one building. Over time, that would bring savings in rent, increased productivity through consolidation, not to mention improving public interests like reducing sprawl, traffic, etc.. Hell, that's what companies like Progress Energy and RBC are doing. It makes sense.

I also thought the state employers were just moved downtown to a renovated building on Fayetteville St.

That's City of Raleigh staff.

[krazeeboi]

^Gotcha.

[urbanesq]

I have never gotten bad service at Mojo's-its one of my favorite cheap joints in Raleigh.

Love the food, but I have to agree that the service can be seriously lacking.

[Jones_]

I should clarify... many do work DT, but their are plenty that don't as well. DOT and DENR each have large numbers in leased office space near 440--folks are spread out wherever there is space, and there's almost never any new construction in the name of cost savings. If the state woud just invest some money in the future by building up in DT on land it already owns, then many agencies could consolidate there several thousand employees in one building. Over time, that would bring savings in rent, increased productivity through consolidation, not to mention improving public interests like reducing sprawl, traffic, etc.. Hell, that's what companies like Progress Energy and RBC are doing. It makes sense.

That's City of Raleigh staff.

I work in the Parker Lincoln Building at Capital and 440 and am a State employee. The Green Building project is supposed to get a bunch of us back downtown.

[ncwebguy]

The state is in the process of selling all the land it owns as part of the North Blount Street redevelopment.

The website ( blountstreet.com ) hasn't been updated in a while, so I don't know what's going on there. There was talk of reestablishing "millionaires row" but it seems the state just wants to get the most money possible, and trusts the developers to do a good job.

DOT has room to build more next to it's building due east of Capitol Square, but seem to have too much invested in their campus near the 440/poole road intersection. It's almost like they want sprawl to justify their existance LOL.

The state govt. blocks give Raleigh the "no identity" feel, which is regretful.. It would be nice if the state mixed in some residential units here and there to give a 24/7/365 vibe, but now it's just Oakwood dog owners and joggers taking advantage of all the empty streets, etc. after five.

Ideally the city and state would look to Austin, Texas to see what they have done... we're similar in a lot of ways -- state capital, major university, arts and culture scene, etc. But they have south by southwest and you can't throw a rock without hitting a musician or two. But DT Raleigh has the advantage of almost being a "clean slate" that we can draw on.. i just hope we draw the right things!

The Natrual Science museum expansion/Green Building project will be a step in the right direction.. hopefully that will spur other projects in that overlooked part of downtown!