The identity of the Triangle

[Eastwestrob]

Raleigh has never been as awesome as it is today. It struggled to be more than a state capital and college town for a long time. The fabric you speak of is being woven as we speak... Places like Norfolk and Richmond, and even Winston-Salem had a "name" long before Raleigh even had a freeway passing nearby. Size doesn't really matter so much. Winston-Salem has never been as big as it is today, yet it seemed to have a firmly established identity a long time ago.

I agree that Raleigh is Awesome. Many look at the other cities mentioned and don't realize how large they once were compared to Raleigh. With an older large city it will only be natural that it appear much larger and built-up. Raleigh is growing so fast that it can't keep up with itself. You are going to see a major change in the downtown section over the next 10 years and it will far exceed all other towns mentioned except Atlanta.

[urbanvb]

Perhaps Raleighsfinest is speaking more so of the lack of national recognition. If that be so then Raleigh is just now truly starting to experience massive growth. The city has many cultural activities, decent housing prices and above average wages. I would think within the next ten years Raleigh will truly establish a name and recognition for itself. Charlotte is just now coming online as a major player in the US and one day Raleigh will have its turn as well.

[raleightransplant]

I've said this before but people on here are almost too critical of Raleigh. I guess that's good...better than a bunch of complete homers...ahem Charlotte. Raleigh IS a well-known emerging city...Trust ME, I decided to move here out of college. Never looked at Charlotte or Atlanta (and for God sakes never Nashville). Raleigh appeared a better area than any of those easy. If Raleigh wants to boost it's profile, don't waste your time with those areas...go for the Seattles and Portlands of the world. Also, my sister works with clients in Chicago and all over the country (she's based in CHI). When she mentions Raleigh, people always mention how nice of an area they hear it is. She comments that people actually "oohh and ahhh" over the place! Now coming from other parts of the country, that is a huge compliment. So Raleigh...love yourself!

Downtown will get bigger, and Raleigh will take off to new heights in the next 10 years...no doubt.

[DanRNC]

I would say Raleigh (the Triangle as a whole) has already gained significant national to international recognition-primarily as one of the largest tech and education centers in the country and world. I honestly don't think Raleigh is in the shadow of Charlotte as most publications consistently rank this area higher in most indices. Charlotte does a better job of self promotion (sometimes shameless)-trust me I am from there.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Dido. True Stories >>>I was watching the weather channel a couple of years ago and they were giving the forecast and Raleigh's temperature came up, then the weatherman mentioned how Raleigh is a place that had grown so much recently. And about a year ago I was listening to my favorite radio show program which is syndicated out of Washington D.C. and they were naming great places to live nationally and someone mentioned Raleigh. And everyone was like yeahhh, how it had a great business climate, so on and so forth.

Don't sleep on Raleigh. The area is coming into it's on and has been since the mid nineties. And with great new business announcements coming forth every few weeks or so I see no reason to believe Raleigh isn't very capable of become a truly world reknowned city. Also Nashville would'nt be half or what it is without the whole country music thing. With the new convention center, the opening of the Dix Property, 540, the new Airport Expansion and renovation, Glentree...we can't lose. So just stick around and see what the next few years will bring.

[Jones_]

The creative class is very underrated here. If you let North Raleigh speak for and govern the entire City you get a dull monotonous sea of surburban life. Not all bad. As stated before, schools here are pretty good, family raising climate is good etc. etc. Downtown however has an unspeakable number of excellant restaurants...so much so that friends and family from up north and the west coast all are pleasantly surprised versus what they expected...expectations being Applebees, TGI Fridays and other boring fare. Also the art scene downtown is better than decent, even if it is nothing like NYC. If CAM comes through, and say the NCMoA had a downtown extension, those along side, Design Box, Glance, Artspace and the rest of City Market, Lee Hansley, 20 Glenwood, Lump, Fish Market, Litmus, Glitter, the new place in Crockers, and others I know I am forgetting, you have something of a regional collection of Art galleries. For all the supposed creative minds in Chapel Hill, a typical art walk there has the same three galleries open. I encourage all of you to not only visit downtown raleigh on first Friday artwalks, but move here...whatever the cost. I ate dinner with a friend, walked to two bars last night, chatted with bartenders and friends I knew would be one place or another and walked home. Your paycheck, as small as it may seem sometimes keeps downtown businesses open and allows the heart of the region to grow and thrive.

[urbanvb]

We get a public NC station here in VB. I noticed the other day you guys have a nice Arbortoreum (sp?) and they are even expanding.

[dmccall]

I'd love to redevelop the section between Memorial Auditorium, the new TTA station at 5-star, and Dorothea Dix as a low-rise, moderate rent arts district. I really don't know how, financially, you create something like this with new construction (I'd do 3-story row houses with restaurants and such on the corners - like Capital Hill). The young artsy folk and the young techy folk (who want to ride the train to the RTP) would love to live in this area.

With this we'd develop a safe, walkable, interesting developement from the Farmer's Market all the way to Mordecai.

[Templar]

I'd love to redevelop the section between Memorial Auditorium, the new TTA station at 5-star, and Dorothea Dix as a low-rise, moderate rent arts district. I really don't know how, financially, you create something like this with new construction (I'd do 3-story row houses with restaurants and such on the corners - like Capital Hill). The young artsy folk and the young techy folk (who want to ride the train to the RTP) would love to live in this area.

With this we'd develop a safe, walkable, interesting developement from the Farmer's Market all the way to Mordecai.

I am a new member and had to chime in. Raleigh is known as the town where Barney went to party. I can't think of a cooler identity than that. We need a statue!

[Templar]

I'd love to redevelop the section between Memorial Auditorium, the new TTA station at 5-star, and Dorothea Dix as a low-rise, moderate rent arts district. I really don't know how, financially, you create something like this with new construction (I'd do 3-story row houses with restaurants and such on the corners - like Capital Hill). The young artsy folk and the young techy folk (who want to ride the train to the RTP) would love to live in this area.

With this we'd develop a safe, walkable, interesting developement from the Farmer's Market all the way to Mordecai.

[avery]

I have to agree with just about every post on this topic, including the opening thread. I can see where one could ask "where is Raleigh's identity?" I think many have hit the nail on the head with this one.

Raleigh has just recently began to grow compared to cities such as Winston-Salem, Charlotte, Atlanta, Richmond, etc. I believe cities such as Richmond and Winston-Salem have already reached their peaks and are looking for ways to re-energize themselves. These two cities boomed during the tobacco freindly era when the Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds were kings. Richmond was the capital of the confederacy and has been around for awhile. Charlotte is continuing to explode and have yet to see their peak, although they have always been the biggest city in the Carolinas. The "head-start" factor and age of the cities play a big role in their identity.

Raleigh is a fantastic place and apparently others already realize this or the growth would not be what it is today. Maybe you need to look outside of this forum to find out how others identify the Triangle. IMHO, I see the Triangle as an explosive high-tech region with great universities and a market for successful young professionals. It is also the state capital.

I am not sure if this is what you mean by searching for an "identity" but as the area grows and ages, the identity will attach itself. Every city you mentioned has big-box retailers and cookie-cutter houses so I don't even consider this. The capital, the universities, and RTP aren't going anywhere and I think around this is where our identity will be formed.

[urbanesq]

I'd love to redevelop the section between Memorial Auditorium, the new TTA station at 5-star, and Dorothea Dix as a low-rise, moderate rent arts district. I really don't know how, financially, you create something like this with new construction (I'd do 3-story row houses with restaurants and such on the corners - like Capital Hill). The young artsy folk and the young techy folk (who want to ride the train to the RTP) would love to live in this area.

With this we'd develop a safe, walkable, interesting developement from the Farmer's Market all the way to Mordecai.

That type of project would require a substantial -- make that immense-- land assemblage, plus demolition, most likely some environmental remediation, utility and other infrastruture upgrades, and then construction. (And people wonder why redevelopment often requires tax credits and other public subsidies...). My sense is that in order to make that type of project work, one would have to go taller/denser than 3 stories in parts of the development; perhaps one would build something more on the order of 15-20 stories of condos and/or apartments for the buildings closest to the train station, with 3 stories closer to the farmer's market, with a mix of 3-5-7 stories in between. One might also include a mix of office and services (small businesses, live-work units-- and/or live-studio units for the artists-- day care, dental, medical) in the part of the development closer to the station so that the cost of the more affordable residential units could be amortized over a wider variety of tenant/purchaser, and so that jobs and services would be within walking distance for those who chose not to take the train or walk/bike/shuttle into downtown offices.

That said, it can be done (though maybe not all at once on a scale as vast as the area you reference). Post Properties has done a great job with low- to mid-rise residential developments that are beautiful and amazingly dense. The State Thomas project in Dallas is one excellent example of that Georgetown feel that you're talking about replicated in new construction.

Sounds like an excellent plan-- let me know when you pull your investment group together.

[dmccall]

Thanks, urbanesq. I'll try to round up a few patients in the reception area to go in on it. We'll roll up our sleeves on Friday and get a plan to the City on Monday. I think that really just a 4x4 block area is all it needs to get big mo' going in that area. (did I mention that it would steeply increase the Mayor's property value?

I must have missed the point of this thread. We do need an identity. I think we need an architectural symbol is what we need. I submitted an idea for tall, colorfully lit spires to project off the rooftop of the convention center. Well, that didn't fly. Instead we're getting a cake box. Hopefully GlenTree will inspire someone to do something gutsy and iconic downtown. Space needle, gateway arch. Whatever. Just DO IT!!

[Damien]

Thanks, urbanesq. I'll try to round up a few patients in the reception area to go in on it. We'll roll up our sleeves on Friday and get a plan to the City on Monday. I think that really just a 4x4 block area is all it needs to get big mo' going in that area. (did I mention that it would steeply increase the Mayor's property value?

I must have missed the point of this thread. We do need an identity. I think we need an architectural symbol is what we need. I submitted an idea for tall, colorfully lit spires to project off the rooftop of the convention center. Well, that didn't fly. Instead we're getting a cake box. Hopefully GlenTree will inspire someone to do something gutsy and iconic downtown. Space needle, gateway arch. Whatever. Just DO IT!!

Not to dis your idea, but the image on your website of the lit spires idea looks kinda tacky.

[krazeeboi]

Charlotte is continuing to explode and have yet to see their peak, although they have always been the biggest city in the Carolinas. The "head-start" factor and age of the cities play a big role in their identity.

Actually, Charlotte didn't become the largest city in the Carolinas until the late 1920's when it surpassed Charleston in population. I do see the overall point you're getting at though.

[monsoon]

Actually, Charlotte didn't become the largest city in the Carolinas until the late 1920's when it surpassed Charleston in population. I do see the overall point you're getting at though.

That's not correct either. At that time Winston-Salem was the largest city in the Carolinas.

[krazeeboi]

That's not correct either. At that time Winston-Salem was the largest city in the Carolinas.

An excerpt from the article "THE GROWTH OF CHARLOTTE: A HISTORY" from the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Historic Landmarks Commission website:

Endless blocks of Myers Park, Eastover, and the new streets of Dilworth were developed in the 1920s with variations on the two-story brick Colonial box.

At the end of the decade 82,675 people lived in Charlotte, a 78 percent increase in just ten years. 147 The city pulled ahead of Charleston to become the largest in both Carolinas. The Piedmont textile manufacturing region had triumphed over the old coastal agricultural export region.

[dmccall]

Not to dis your idea, but the image on your website of the lit spires idea looks kinda tacky.

He meant this photo, y'all:

Ha ha! Thanks I appreciate your honesty. I never was able to get the styrofoam packaging and colored toothpicks to exactly convey what I really wanted. Nevertheless I wanted to throw the idea out there. I was stunned this Summer to learn that Santiago Calatrava used it for the new World Trade Center transportation hub in NYC. (I'm NOT saying he stole my idea. Just saying it is, indeed, one that would work well as a trophy piece in an urban setting). THIS is the look I was after:

While the overall shape of his design is insect-like, could you imagine how something like this would look in the foreground of this city shot at night (Thanks in advance, Matt!):

Instead, we're getting a sand-colored cake box. Yippee.

[JDC]

I've been living in the Triangle for six months now and I'm a little perplexed by Raleigh's identity (as many here may be as well). I was at the Old Reliable Run there Sunday, and besides the area around the starting/finish line, the downtown area was DEAD. I mean, there were possibly 15 people including police in downtown Raleigh that day who weren't there to watch the race. Most Saturdays I've spent downtown were equally drab (barring the immediate area by the state capitol and the museums).

I suppose this comes partially as a result of Raleigh's citizens living in the outskirts, spread around the highways in cookie-cutter condos and townhomes. That and a lack of stuff to do (besides touristy stuff, like the museums and capitol, etc.)

[Raleighsfinest]

I've been living in the Triangle for six months now and I'm a little perplexed by Raleigh's identity (as many here may be as well). I was at the Old Reliable Run there Sunday, and besides the area around the starting/finish line, the downtown area was DEAD. I mean, there were possibly 15 people including police in downtown Raleigh that day who weren't there to watch the race. Most Saturdays I've spent downtown were equally drab (barring the immediate area by the state capitol and the museums).

I suppose this comes partially as a result of Raleigh's citizens living in the outskirts, spread around the highways in cookie-cutter condos and townhomes. That and a lack of stuff to do (besides touristy stuff, like the museums and capitol, etc.)

You truly understand exactly what i'm talking about. I think Raleigh is a bustling city with a good job market, and cheap housing, but the problem is, where are all of the hang outs for the 350,000 people who live here? Is it Wal-mart? No disrespect to the artsy,bike trailing,and gay crowd. Really no disrespect, but I think Raleigh could use more exiting things to do for the 15-30 year old crowd. I'm sorry but museums is not something that is really exiting. Just ten years ago there were more hangouts and clubs in Raleigh than there are now for the less posh. We don't even have decent strip clubs. Everytime it's time to go have fun, I find myself driving to Durham or Greensboro. I don't want to drive. Charlottetons don't have to drive, their city has something for everybody. I here people talking of diversity in Raleigh, "oh contrare." The diversity is disappearing.

I love this city, but it's starting to get to the point where I don't have anything to do in my spare time,but shop, or eat out.

[ncwebguy]

For years, the one identity that the mayor and/or city council have cultivated is a "city of neighborhoods" which to me is good and bad...

City Market/Moore Square, Oakwood, Mordecai, warehouse/depot district, Glenwood South, Boyland Heights, Hillsborough Street/NCSU, Cameron Village, Five Points, Crabtree, Lake Boone/Rex Hospital, North Hills, Mini City, Creedmoor, and now Brier Creek all conjure up some sense of place at their mention to people who live in Raleigh. And the "nature" of greenways and trees everywhere that flourish throughout the city. Or maybe I'm grasping at straws that aren't there.

None of these neighborhoods/areas are (currently) self-contained opportunities to live, shop, work and play.

This has established another, unintended "identity" of Raleigh -- one of needing to get in a personal transportation vehicle and leave your "living" neighborhood to shop, work, and/or play... With a lot of Raleigh's growth coming post-automobile, the public transportation system has been an afterthought at best. This forces each neighborhood to have a way to handle the hundreds/thousands of automobiles, either via surface parking lots, wider streets, driveways, parking decks, etc.

Luckily, the 21st century will hopefully afford us the technology (via construction innovation) and leadership/forethought to plan for present and future needs.

The city has a history of doing just this -- Joel Lane had the capitol moved from coastal New Bern to a trading route crossroads in the middle of the state by giving away some land and having a few taverns that politicians liked. This was followed with the grid street system (efficiency) combined with preserving blocks in all quadrants as park/town square land (nature and gathering space) that have culminated into what we have today.

That being said, right now the city is at the most important crossroads in it's over 200 year history -- do we continue to invest in outward, uncontained "growth at any cost" sprawl or do we instead invest in infrastructure and upkeep of our existing inventory of buildings, places while infilling with new ones that make sense in the grand scheme of things.

I just got back from visiting my ex-roommate in London.. a city that has been around hundreds of years, home of the british empire... it has created the delicate balance of old and new, antique and modern, public and private that Raleigh *could* have.

It all comes down to letting the wallet speak for you... big boxes didn't get big on their own... a lot of people spent a lot of money for them to get to where they are now. Downtown restaurants/shops/bars/artists/"something to do" places/etc. don't grow on trees.

What does Durham/Chapel Hill/Greensboro/Charlotte/wherever have that we don't have, or could have here now? Maybe all that exists already, but we don't do a good enough job of telling people it's here?

What can we do to add to what we are missing?

[Damien]

There is quite a bit of nightlife in dt. The moore square/city market area, the warehouse district, glenwood south, even hillsborough st all have a number of nice restaurants and bars/clubs. The only thing i really see missing is retail, and its not like we have none. There are retail shops dt. Maybe people just arent looking in the right places. I moved to this area about 7 years ago, and i can say that there are more bars/clubs and retail in dt now then there was when i moved here.

Also, the WTC transportation hub looks really cool. That definitely would look nice on top of the cc.

[raleightransplant]

Great posts in here. I can agree with Damien that there are some great nightlife options in downtown. It's not a lost cause by any means. We're getting places with making downtown a great place. It's happening! HOWEVER, it was accurately noted that there just aren't great options for the non-yuppie crowd (aside from a few places on Hillsborough). Yes, Glenwood South is great and so is City Market...but let's throw in some places that will draw people who can spend $25.00-$45.00 out instead of $150.00. Where can you get a fish taco or a really good slab of ribs rather than go to the trendier places on Glenwood? I know there are some examples, but we need to step it up with this kind of thing.

Also, while it's great to have a thriving "creative class" in the Triangle (and that is one of the things that sets this place apart)...I would like to see some places that are more appealing to the masses. If you want to get people in from the suburbs, and have them think about living dt (or at least spending more time there)...you can't just have these places that cater to the the creative class. You've got to have really decent places that everyday people aren't intimidated to frequent. I mean, the attitude you can get from places like Lilly's or Third Place are enough to really turn some people off. Hell, if I'm not in the mood to have a blank stare when I order a slice of pizza or an espresso....I could just as easily stay in the suburbs and deal with more accomodating establishments.

That's my .02

[Raleighsfinest]

Great posts in here. I can agree with Damien that there are some great nightlife options in downtown. It's not a lost cause by any means. We're getting places with making downtown a great place. It's happening! HOWEVER, it was accurately noted that there just aren't great options for the non-yuppie crowd (aside from a few places on Hillsborough). Yes, Glenwood South is great and so is City Market...but let's throw in some places that will draw people who can spend $25.00-$45.00 out instead of $150.00. Where can you get a fish taco or a really good slab of ribs rather than go to the trendier places on Glenwood? I know there are some examples, but we need to step it up with this kind of thing.

Also, while it's great to have a thriving "creative class" in the Triangle (and that is one of the things that sets this place apart)...I would like to see some places that are more appealing to the masses. If you want to get people in from the suburbs, and have them think about living dt (or at least spending more time there)...you can't just have these places that cater to the the creative class. You've got to have really decent places that everyday people aren't intimidated to frequent. I mean, the attitude you can get from places like Lilly's or Third Place are enough to really turn some people off. Hell, if I'm not in the mood to have a blank stare when I order a slice of pizza or an espresso....I could just as easily stay in the suburbs and deal with more accomodating establishments.

That's my .02

I definately cosign your statements. Not everyone in Raleigh are yuppies. I enjoy some of the restaurants in that distirct, but the snobbery, ssshhhh!

[ncwebguy]

DT already has several places for those who don't want to spend a lot. Unfortunately, several of them (marked with a * in the list) close after the lunch rush. I don't know what it will take to change the minds of the owners of these establishments...

And there's the chicken and egg situation of:

- needing customers to justify staying open late

- needing more places staying open later to attract people to downtown on a weeknight.

Here is my list of cheap eating downtown, roughly starting from the peace/glenwood intersection -- McDonalds and Subway on Peace, Starbucks, Armadillo Grill, Helios (is not as bad as Third Place for snobbery, depends on who is working), CharGrill/Snoopys, Flying Saucer (has some sandwiches), Joe's Place, Berkley Cafe, Poole's Diner, Raleigh Soda Shop*, Sam and Wally's* (ground floor of Sheraton), China Market (open till 8 weeknights!), Martin Street pizza and subs (not open yet, going in where Retail/Martin St. Music Hall was) Port City Java*, Subway (by Wachovia)*, Cafe Carolina*, Capitol Room (no star!, borderline pricey), American Pita and Grille*, Brass Grill*, Quiznos*, the deli in the Hudson (not open yet), McDonalds by Shaw, Cooper's Barbecue*, La Joy coffee*, Las Margaritas, Woodys, Angelos*, Big Ed's*(sooo wish this star wasn't there), Tony's Cafe*, Subway City Market, the IMAX Cafe (not sure of hours), and Krispy Kreme.

There are too many astericks, and the fact that this covers *all* of downtown isn't good, but hopefully this will change soon... and there are the higher end restaurants not listed. Also, a lot of these "dots" are grouped (city market, Martin/Fayetville, Hillsborough/Glenwood) and there is a lot of empty space between these groupings. This makes DT feel empty of these options, especially in the warehouse district and government campus north of Capitol Square.

Coopers could supply ribs, and Las Margaritas *might* have fish tacos, but i haven't looked for them there.

For ribs, there is BBQ & Ribs open on St. Mary's, but i don't know how good the ribs are there. This is somewhat of a "cursed" location, as it used to be a seafood place (that had fish tacos!) and Cool Mountain ice cream palor (though that whole chain seems to have imploded) before that. Also in that area, a new internet cafe/game playing store opened up a couple of weeks ago -- Bit Players, near Office Tavern. I biked by there around 8 some night last week, and they're open till 9 or 10 on weeknights and midnight friday/saturday. I don't remember what their rates are, but that and 2k games (on peace just east of glenwood) are signs of trying to provide other types of entertainment options in the area.