Friday Night Brawl in the Mall

[TheAnk]

I agree with a lot of your points, TheAnk, especially in regards to the Lowes in Philly not wanting to attract that "young males who are prone to violence" thing. I mean, jeez, say what you mean.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how identifying the races of the kids involved in the fight at the mall would have added anything, journalistically speaking. Facts are, there was a big fight at the mall. Why does it matter to me, a non-fighting mall-goer, what the fighters looked like? You're right that it would be ridiculously politically correct if it was a public safety issue where this group of kids is going around picking fights with all kinds of people, we all need to look out for them for our own safety, but we're still not told what they look like. That's not the case, so I don't think it would have been relevant to the article.

I know that there are journalistic guidelines for how much information should go into a piece like this. I wish we had a veteran journalist in our midst to give an opinion.

I was comparing the CNN article on "Get Rich" to the ProJo article on the ACLU and the police and minority pull overs, not the article in the ProJo on the brawl.. My bad for not being more clear on that.. I agree there is no need to delve into how the brawlers looked unless they were exacting violence on random people..

[brick]

PP really needs to get its act together on this. I know a decent cross-section of RIers and a lot of them will not come to the mall at night because of the general thug/gang presence there. Most these are the people who have the money to spend at the higher end stores. Besides bigger stories like this there are plenty of stories of incidents of people getting either directly abused by the thugs or getting between two gangs of them. I don't typically worry about this stuff (I'm about 6', 250 lbs. with a lot of muscle mass), but several women I've spoken to will not go to the mall alone anymore and will not go to the third floor even when accompanied. Obviously this applies even more to middle-aged women who are the ones that will spend money in all of those high-end stores. These thugs are also the same people who caused the broou-haha with the Westin last year when they wanted to close off their lobby, and they have a point. Imagine you bring a convention to town, then a bunch of people want to go to the mall and they go up to D&B or something and are confronted with this presence. Can't be a good thing.

Given their huge tax breaks, I find it hard to believe that the company managing the mall doesn't have some room in it's budget for better upkeep and more security. And if they don't then the whole thing is doomed to failure because eventually the people giving it vitality will stop going, the high-end stores will not make enough money to stay, and the whole thing will become a piece of urban blight in Capital Center.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be alarmist and I don't think anything is going to happen overnight. But PP is already a definite step-down from where it was for the first two years or so of it's operation, in terms of cleanliness and in terms of the feeling of security walking through. In fact, one wonders if this also goes back to the "broken glass" theory and whether people care less about how they behave in the mall because the mall management itself doesn't seem that concerned with the upkeep.

Thoughts?

[virgo20]

PP really needs to get its act together on this. I know a decent cross-section of RIers and a lot of them will not come to the mall at night because of the general thug/gang presence there. Most these are the people who have the money to spend at the higher end stores. Besides bigger stories like this there are plenty of stories of incidents of people getting either directly abused by the thugs or getting between two gangs of them. I don't typically worry about this stuff (I'm about 6', 250 lbs. with a lot of muscle mass), but several women I've spoken to will not go to the mall alone anymore and will not go to the third floor even when accompanied. Obviously this applies even more to middle-aged women who are the ones that will spend money in all of those high-end stores. These thugs are also the same people who caused the broou-haha with the Westin last year when they wanted to close off their lobby, and they have a point. Imagine you bring a convention to town, then a bunch of people want to go to the mall and they go up to D&B or something and are confronted with this presence. Can't be a good thing.

Given their huge tax breaks, I find it hard to believe that the company managing the mall doesn't have some room in it's budget for better upkeep and more security. And if they don't then the whole thing is doomed to failure because eventually the people giving it vitality will stop going, the high-end stores will not make enough money to stay, and the whole thing will become a piece of urban blight in Capital Center.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be alarmist and I don't think anything is going to happen overnight. But PP is already a definite step-down from where it was for the first two years or so of it's operation, in terms of cleanliness and in terms of the feeling of security walking through. In fact, one wonders if this also goes back to the "broken glass" theory and whether people care less about how they behave in the mall because the mall management itself doesn't seem that concerned with the upkeep.

Thoughts?

I think you're getting a little too overexcited here. Nobody in R.I. thinks that all the urban ills of R.I. were quickly patched up with the construction of a mall....and any visitor to Providence recognizes that this is a city and with any city comes city issues. While I agree the mall needs more security, I think that mgmt. will catch up after the recent negative press all over the news.

[chaz200]

Just thought I would add my two cents. I think Providence Place has the responsibly to enact if they have not done so already loitering policies and enforce them. If the kids keep getting hassled and thrown out they will stop coming to the mall to hang out.

The other problem is that the theater in the mall is the only accessible theater in the Providence area. So these kids have nowhere else to go. A smaller theater built in the city was one of the original conditions when the mall was built but that was just let go. With theater revenues declining I don't see any new theaters in Providence's future.

Lastly malls attract kids. That's true all over the country. The places where kids used to hang out have all disappeared. Bowling alleys, Skating rinks, and Mom and pop fast food shops. Of course this was due to economic as well as cultural shifts.

I don't know what the answer is but I think PP definitely needs to start throwing the kids out. They are going to lose revenue but hopefully as older shoppers feel comfortable again with shopping at the mall they should be able to recoup. It would certainly have an impact on their image.

[brick]

I think you're getting a little too overexcited here. Nobody in R.I. thinks that all the urban ills of R.I. were quickly patched up with the construction of a mall....and any visitor to Providence recognizes that this is a city and with any city comes city issues. While I agree the mall needs more security, I think that mgmt. will catch up after the recent negative press all over the news.

No, but I think if you look at the first couple of years of operation, the mall took care of loiterers, it took care of carpets, etc. I think that level of service is what places like Nordstrom expect and they will back out at the end of their leases if it continues to get worse. They have that fancy code of conduct sign all over the place but I doubt they enforce it at all.

And the important point is that if I have these things running through the back of my mind, you can be sure that the managers of these stores have it on theirs.

I'm also concerned about the future of the mall because of the desire to add high end retail to Westminster. How much high end retail do we really need? If PP were overflowing with stores that wanted to get in, then I could see the opportunity. What I worry about a bit is that the high end boutique places will start to leave, then the high end designer places, and then we will be left with Emerald Square but with a fancy anchor in Nordstrom, who then may or may not decide to stay.

[virgo20]

Just thought I would add my two cents. I think Providence Place has the responsibly to enact if they have not done so already loitering policies and enforce them. If the kids keep getting hassled and thrown out they will stop coming to the mall to hang out.

The other problem is that the theater in the mall is the only accessible theater in the Providence area. So these kids have nowhere else to go. A smaller theater built in the city was one of the original conditions when the mall was built but that was just let go. With theater revenues declining I don't see any new theaters in Providence's future.

Lastly malls attract kids. That's true all over the country. The places where kids used to hang out have all disappeared. Bowling alleys, Skating rinks, and Mom and pop fast food shops. Of course this was due to economic as well as cultural shifts.

I don't know what the answer is but I think PP definitely needs to start throwing the kids out. They are going to lose revenue but hopefully as older shoppers feel comfortable again with shopping at the mall they should be able to recoup. It would certainly have an impact on their image.

These are my sentiments exactly. I don't understand the whole race issue...whether it's important to state that they were minority kids or the political correctness of stating the "facts." The only difference from PP and Warwick Mall is the racial makeup of the cities that they are located in....20 years ago when I was growing up in Providence, we were rowdy, hung in groups, got into fights, and had territorial battles with people from other areas of the city...Only we were mostly white. We used to go to R.I. Mall, DG's Arcade, and Rocky Point Park....( all located in Warwick) ...and we went there because there was nothing to do in the city itself. There are not enough role models, community groups, events, and things for kids to do in Providence.

With that said, when I was younger, we were kicked out of places and not welcomed when we acted up...PP security needs to do the same. ...and after-school programs, rec centers, and community group information should be integrated together and be made available to all city residents. Many people don't know these programs exist because of them not being integrated and made available to the schools. You got to understand that the Providence of today is majority Latino..(most from homes that English is the 2nd language or not spoken at all) If the parents don't understand the need or don't fully realize that programs exist, the cultural divide that their children face will inevitably propel them to either a life of crime or ultimate aspirations.....We need to pay attention to the kids...and today those kids are 70% Hispanic....the future of Providence...

[mr2448]

I think you're getting a little too overexcited here. Nobody in R.I. thinks that all the urban ills of R.I. were quickly patched up with the construction of a mall....and any visitor to Providence recognizes that this is a city and with any city comes city issues. While I agree the mall needs more security, I think that mgmt. will catch up after the recent negative press all over the news.

Putting a uniform on a person and then training him/her for two weeks does not make a security expert. Especially when the pay is minimum or just above minimum wage. More retired police officers need to be hired at a decent wage rather than to the lowest bidding agency.

It is interesting that 50 years ago you would find 25000 shoppers in downtown Providence every Saturday and they were protected by the Providence Police Dept. who were at every corner. Now 25000 show up on both Saturday and Sunday at PP; but, they are protected by a small private security force. Am I missing something? I know there is a small PP station for Prov Police, but are they there all the time? Doesn't the city have some responsibility to protect inside PP against those citizens that would cause troble? And do this at no extra cost to PP! While this is a private building the city still needs to show some responsibility with the protection within the building. I still view PP as a public place, no different then Thayer Street or Broad Street. Ciciline needs to step up and have more Providence Blue there.

Mark

[TheAnk]

20 years ago when I was growing up in Providence, we were rowdy, hung in groups, got into fights, and had territorial battles with people from other areas of the city...

With that said, when I was younger, we were kicked out of places and not welcomed when we acted up...

Did you and your friends carry guns? Did your rivals? No.. Things were different back then.. Worst case scenario you took a beating.. Times have changed... And things are more serious now.. You didn't grow up life hopeless and thinking there was no way out.. Thats a big difference.. That difference is how violence escalates far quicker now than back then..

[pdxstreetcar]

Theres definately a gradual yet noticable shift in the stores in the mall, the expensive higher end stores seem to be closing (L&T , Bang & Olefsen etc) and are being replaced with stores targeting a younger crowd (Hollister just opened, Pac Sun just moved to a new location and I have a feeling Newbury Comics does incredible business there) and also the standard national chains who see an un-served downtown population (JC Penney, Filenes, GAP etc).

I think the mall has to be careful if they put restrictions on teens in the mall considering that is the mall's target market and is becoming more and more. Certainly you have to make people feel safe in the mall and even those who get paranoid over the smallest things but they need to tread carefully otherwise it will be like a toy store banning children.

Anyhow I went over to the mall yesterday night and there was a noticable providence police presence with two officers watching from the movie theater balcony over the foodcourt and other officers walking around the food court. Mall security seemed to be stepped up too. Sometimes a few isolated events can get hyped up by the media to seem as if the world is ending but regardless when there are problems big or small something should be done since it gets back to the broken windows theory.

[ruchele]

Did you and your friends carry guns? Did your rivals? No.. Things were different back then..

Ok, but hold on- to keep things in perspective, I don't recall reading that the violence at the mall involved any guns, either. Yes, guns are a more real threat than they were when any of us were teenagers. But let's see this mall thing as it is, not as a symbol of everything wrong with the world today.

[TheAnk]

Ok, but hold on- to keep things in perspective, I don't recall reading that the violence at the mall involved any guns, either. Yes, guns are a more real threat than they were when any of us were teenagers. But let's see this mall thing as it is, not as a symbol of everything wrong with the world today.

I'm also talking about the kid who got shot to death near my house the other day.. On Atwells.. Thats in perspective.. And in case you didn't remember, the showing of "Get Rich" in PA had a shooting.. Its relative.. I'd actually be shocked if the mall situation DIDN'T have concealed weapons involved..

[virgo20]

I'm also talking about the kid who got shot to death near my house the other day.. On Atwells.. Thats in perspective.. And in case you didn't remember, the showing of "Get Rich" in PA had a shooting.. Its relative.. I'd actually be shocked if the mall situation DIDN'T have concealed weapons involved..

Change is never easy for some people to come to grips with...and Providence has changed since when I grew up....you're right. However, these were kids.. and to speculate that they had guns is ridiculous...Yes, kids were not carrying guns when I was younger because the Italian Mafia that controlled Federal Hill, Silver Lake, the North End, Cranston and Johnston had control over them. They also controlled a large part of the drug trade. Drugs bring violence and I would bet that the kid shot around the corner from you was murdered as a result of drugs or by someone he knew. People just don't go crazy and have random drive-by shootings at anonymous people. In the early 80's , there were virtually no Hispanics in Providence. Blacks made up 2 neighborhoods in Providence...( Camp St. and South Side) The rest of the city was white. I can't help to think that you're issue is with the color of the people involved. When you speak of political correctness, you talk about why the media didn't portray them as minorities.

They are kids and they are no different from the kids of yesterday. Time and technology have moved on and evolved them, but they are still kids. When a bomb went off in Nathanael Greene MS back in 1988 when I was there, they didn't say 9 white kids blew up the bathroom. The problem with guns now in 2005 is that there much more accessible than back in the 80's. The mafia is gone and people can get them off the street. Guns and drugs are synonymous.....and as long as drugs are illegal....you will have crime including murder.

The real issue is giving these kids things to do and outlets where they can be allowed to grow. We were on welfare when we grew up and we always felt hopeless. The difference is that the majority of these kids come from families where they don't speak English in the home. That's a disadvantage. They feel hopeless and attach to gangs that involve themselves with drugs and consequently, later, with crime. They've been in a recycled form of poverty growing up generation after generation in the same squalor....To them...there is no hope. There is no understanding.

I know you accuse the Journal of being " politically correct. " Maybe they could do a follow-up story and tell the state why the 18 year old was really gunned down? at 230 AM no less wandering the streets? He sure wasn't playing catch....It's all about drugs....

[TheAnk]

If you want to discount what I say and sweep it under the table by calling me a racist in a round about way, good for you.. You are ignorant and blind.. Statistics say that per capita minorities commit more crime.. That is a fact.. I live in a predominantly minority area, and crime is prevalent.. Also fact.. Its depressing to me to see a young kid aged 18 killed 5 houses up.. Instead of ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist, I would rather find a way to alleviate the issues here.. Turning a deaf ear doesn't make things go away.. It seems to me that people would much rather say race doesn't matter and feel good about saying that, than addressing the fact that the people who are dying are minorities.. I think you are doing young, inner city children a terrible injustice... By claiming that things are fine and all is good, you are sweeping the issues under the table.. Every time I see the candles outside my window I think about how that could have been avoided.. And you all say that it has nothing to do with race, yet I only see black faces in the obits..

[ruchele]

Instead of ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist, I would rather find a way to alleviate the issues here..

Ok, fine, what's your proposal for fixing these problems?

You want us to "talk openly" about race and crime, but when someone disagrees with you, you accuse them of calling you a racist (like we're supposed to talk about race with out talking about relations between races? How would one do that?).

The issue is that hardly anyone in this country agrees about either the causes of or solutions to urban crime. Sorry, but people are going to disagree when tough subjects are being discussed. "Talking openly" does not mean everyone just agreeing with you, and disagreeing with you does not mean others are "ignorant and blind" or "ignoring the problem." Virgo20 just offered a different perspective on your comments- no where did I read him calling you a racist. Pulling out the "don't you dare call me a racist!" card is just a distraction from this real conversation you say you want to have. Cool down a little and maybe that conversation can take place.

[MikeR]

I'm surprised they haven't banned minors from the mall after certain hours on weekend nights, like they have in many malls across the country. I don't personally like the idea, but wouldn't be surprised if they tried this at PPM. At the mall here in Albany, they have security guards that ID anyone walking around who looks under 18.

Sounds like a good idea. The last time I was at PPM at night was a couple of years ago; me and a few of my friends were heading to the theaters and a fight broke out in front of Newbury Comics just as we we getting off the up esclator. We detoured to the right side of the mall and took in the action across the way. 4, mabye 5 involved. Never went back to PPM at night since. Only go during the day on weekends...

[Gusterfell]

If you want to discount what I say and sweep it under the table by calling me a racist in a round about way, good for you.. You are ignorant and blind.. Statistics say that per capita minorities commit more crime.. That is a fact.. I live in a predominantly minority area, and crime is prevalent.. Also fact.. Its depressing to me to see a young kid aged 18 killed 5 houses up.. Instead of ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist, I would rather find a way to alleviate the issues here.. Turning a deaf ear doesn't make things go away.. It seems to me that people would much rather say race doesn't matter and feel good about saying that, than addressing the fact that the people who are dying are minorities.. I think you are doing young, inner city children a terrible injustice... By claiming that things are fine and all is good, you are sweeping the issues under the table.. Every time I see the candles outside my window I think about how that could have been avoided.. And you all say that it has nothing to do with race, yet I only see black faces in the obits..

The issue isn't a racial one, but rather a socioeconomic one. Sure statistically minorities are more violent per capita, but that is because they are more likely to live in desperate poverty, and feel like crime is their best option. Put a white person in the same situation and he is equally likely to commit crime. The reality in America happens to be that a disproportionate number of the poor are racial minorities, but their race itself doesn't inherently make them prone to criminal acts.

The situation in New Orleans after Katrina was the same sort of thing. For all the talk of color and racism, the most important factor was that these people were poor, not that they happened to be dark-skinned.

[virgo20]

If you want to discount what I say and sweep it under the table by calling me a racist in a round about way, good for you.. You are ignorant and blind.. Statistics say that per capita minorities commit more crime.. That is a fact.. I live in a predominantly minority area, and crime is prevalent.. Also fact.. Its depressing to me to see a young kid aged 18 killed 5 houses up.. Instead of ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist, I would rather find a way to alleviate the issues here.. Turning a deaf ear doesn't make things go away.. It seems to me that people would much rather say race doesn't matter and feel good about saying that, than addressing the fact that the people who are dying are minorities.. I think you are doing young, inner city children a terrible injustice... By claiming that things are fine and all is good, you are sweeping the issues under the table.. Every time I see the candles outside my window I think about how that could have been avoided.. And you all say that it has nothing to do with race, yet I only see black faces in the obits..

<If you want to discount what I say and sweep it under the table by calling me a racist in a round about way, good for you.. You are ignorant and blind>

You need to calm down...What's up with the built-up anger?

I agree with your points in a lot of respects, and others I don't....Providence is only 15% black ....For those faces that you think are black, they are probably Latinos which make up over 40% of the city...( you know the 17% other category...Latinos) Crime exists in all urban areas regardless of who lives there. It just so happens that these areas are mostly from minority groups....minority groups today that are comprised of predominantly people that were not born here, speak another language, and lack tools to gain a solid education and move forward in life...Many resort to drugs because it is an easy "fix" ...and drugs create crime. I have no doubt that the kid in your neighborhood was somehow connected to drugs...but I've always found it amusing that people can generalize on whole ethnic groups...Minorities in RI do commit more crimes ...However, when they are exposed to cultural and socio-economic factors that you could not fathom, many almost feel compelled to get involved with drugs...It's a vicious cycle..The real issue is providing children with opportunities, education, and role models. ...BTW, no one forces you to live in the area that you do....

[brick]

Crime exists in all urban areas regardless of who lives there. It just so happens that these areas are mostly from minority groups....minority groups today that are comprised of predominantly people that were not born here, speak another language, and lack tools to gain a solid education and move forward in life...

100 years ago you would have said the same thing about the Irish and Italians so hopefuly the new wave of immigrants will be able to be future leaders. Immigrants always have it the toughest because they typically come into the country with nearly nothing and it takes a while to build from there.

Regardless, this doesn't really get to the point I was making. The original vision of the mall was for it to be an upscale place. I think the current management is running it into the ground and some of the evidence is the continued presence of loitering thugs and the proliferation of maintanence issues throughout the mall. You said earlier that the only difference between PP and Warwick was the community but that's not the case...at least that's not the case in terms of vision. I would guess that PP will continue to go down market to appeal to the lower income people and while a place for them all to shop is a necessary and good thing, I will be disappointed if it's the mall. Downtown Xing isn't that far from Copley place and the high end shops on Boylston st. in Boston. I know that Boston is larger than Prov but I would think there would be a way to have two different shopping areas. While it sounds elitist the whole point is to bring "elitist" types with their fat wallets into the city.

In short, I guess what I'm saying is that I'd rather not see PP turn into another clone of the already too dense suburban mall template. But if things don't turn around, it would not surprise me in the least to see Nordstrom finally move to Boston and close the store here and have it replaced with a Target or Super Wal-Mart while all of the other high-end places also leave. And then we can have the RI mall right in Capital Center. blech.

[Cotuit]

...but I've always found it amusing that people can generalize on whole ethnic groups...

TheAnk is not generalizing an entire ethnic group, I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension. He is saying that it is ridiculous to try to remove race from the conversation. If a racial group has a high rate of crime, or drug use, or any other social ill, race has to be part of the discussion when trying to look for ways to curb the problems plaguing that group.

Nowhere has TheAnk said he believes that *all* members of any group exhibit certain attributes.

...BTW, no one forces you to live in the area that you do...

I'm sure that TheAnk has the means to move off of his street if that is what he chose to do. Rather than putting him down, I think he should be applauded for wanting to better his community.

[virgo20]

TheAnk is not generalizing an entire ethnic group, I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension. He is saying that it is ridiculous to try to remove race from the conversation. If a racial group has a high rate of crime, or drug use, or any other social ill, race has to be part of the discussion when trying to look for ways to curb the problems plaguing that group.

Nowhere has TheAnk said he believes that *all* members of any group exhibit certain attributes.

I'm sure that TheAnk has the means to move off of his street if that is what he chose to do. Rather than putting him down, I think he should be applauded for wanting to better his community.

When people say that babies in South Providence carry guns and blacks are filling the obituaries, there is a subtle connotation to being biased. I didn't call it racist or call him out for a lack of community spirit. He stated many facts, but the problems that face urban America (including Providence) have to do with a lot more issues than race. It's not wrong to call out race... as the majority of people that inhabit urban areas are people of color...Urban areas have always had social problems from the times that they were incorporated as cities before there was even a "population" of minorities. People of Latino, SE Asian, or African background are at a greater disadvantage when they come to this country because of socio-economic and cultural differences....and they are more prone to crime as a way to escape..and these ethnic groups are the ones that populate Providence and consequently engage in crime. With a population as diverse as Prov., you can't call the race of someone out when it involves 100 kids. If that was the case, they could just say 100 colored kids started a brawl at PP Mall. Urban kids today, whether here in Prov. or any other city in the U.S., do not have the same resources, opportunities, and guides as many people had years ago. Education, time, and cultural awareness are the most important and relevant to any discussion..not race. P.S. Insulting people when they're stating their opinion is not kosher...esp. when you've warned people for doing the same thing and being confrontational. Maybe you should shut down the topic since this is not going anywhere.

[gregw]

The tone of this discussion implies that crime has gotten worse in Providence than it was in the past.

Violent crime has gone down here as it has in most US cities.

In NY the murder rate is at a 40 year low!

This huge drop in crime is partly responsible for the fact that people of means are moving back to cities including Providence.

Also if you adjust for poverty I believe that minorities are no more likely than whites to commit crimes.

One thing that is definitely true is that minorities are more likely to be arrested and incarcerated. I think I read that nationally whites and minorities use drugs to about the same extent (like 12% for each population based on anonymous surveys) but blacks represent like half of all drug-related arrests and incarcerations!

[Cotuit]

Maybe you should shut down the topic since this is not going anywhere.

If I shut down every topic that you were a problem in, there wouldn't be very many topics left open.

[Cotuit]

ProJo Letter to the Editor

[Recchia]

ProJo Letter to the Editor

Go ahead and go to Emerald Square, you don't live in Providence so what do you care anyway. Yes, maybe it was under reported and yes the garage is a nightmare, but if you actually lived in the city instead of the suburbs then you could walk to the mall and not have to deal with stupid garage and would know that this is an isolated incident and that Providence isn't so scary after all. Sounds like this lady is one of those who hasn't set foot in the city except in the mall on a few occasions. She probly hates GTECH and Waterplace too for destroying that nice "park" that she never once set foot in.

[AriPVD]

HAHAHAHAHAHHA wow that is classic. I've never heard such a suburban mentality.